885 réponses à ce sujet

[In Exile]

tmp7704 wrote...
Human scum! You'll regret what you've done here!
Thank you. I am glad we have this chance to talk.
Wow, that sounds terribly dull.
But what if I am not worthy?
That sounds unpleasant. Can it be avoided?
I'm afraid.
Yes. I could have run faster, perhaps.

anger, pleasure, boredom, doubt, hesitation, fear, regret. I don't know, these seem like emotions to me. Ones that PC actually expresses, on pretty regular basis.

Anger
Gratitude
Mockery
Concern
Rebuff
Fear
Sarcasm

I'm not reading the same tone you are. But if the game reacts to you and not to me (or vice versa) we have a problem. In one game, our NPCs are idiots.

As well, the stuff I expressed isn't really an emotion. Unless you think sacrasm or mockery are emotional states?

Modifié par In Exile, 22 novembre 2010 - 03:15 .

[ejoslin]

In Exile wrote...

tmp7704 wrote...
Human scum! You'll regret what you've done here!
Thank you. I am glad we have this chance to talk.
Wow, that sounds terribly dull.
But what if I am not worthy?
That sounds unpleasant. Can it be avoided?
I'm afraid.
Yes. I could have run faster, perhaps.

anger, pleasure, boredom, doubt, hesitation, fear, regret. I don't know, these seem like emotions to me. Ones that PC actually expresses, on pretty regular basis.

Anger
Gratitude
Mockery
Concern
Rebuff
Fear
Sarcasm

I'm not reading the same tone you are. But if the game reacts to you and not to me (or vice versa) we have a problem. In one game, our NPCs are idiots.

As well, the stuff I expressed isn't really an emotion. Unless you think sacrasm or mockery are emotional states?

This is another reason I really like an unvoiced protagonist.  You can get different meanings from the lines.  The responses you're given to all of these from your companions make sense for either, yet give the dialog a whole different feeling.

I still say I prefer a silent protagonist most because i feel more a part of the scene rather than watching a scene.  In fact, the way DAO was done, I felt more a part of the story than I have from a book, where i was reading about other people.

I can get seriously engrossed in any medium.  But DA:O really made me feel *I* was the warden, not that i was watching the warden's story.

[outlaw1109]

I've skimmed through some of the arguements but I honestly became bored with it all.  You can't compare the game to books or movies, because it is neither a book, nor a movie. 
As far as the OP's question, it depends.
Some people would argue that the VO constricts your choices, but the thruth of the matter is that it doesn't have to.  You can get the same number of options voiced or unvoiced.  I can create recordings of my own voice for every line the Warden can speak, add it in the toolset, and BLAM! DA:O becomes fully voiced and everything else remains the same.

Further, it's argued that the VO tone may be different than you would imagine.  I want to touch on this subject because yes, in NWN you could IMAGINE that you said something sarcastically, but if the NPC didn't take it as sarcasm, then they're response doesn't really fit.  I actually encountered this (to my dismay) on several occaisions.  When my intent was to be funny, not mean, but the NPC mistook my intentions and attacked me.  In NWN2, it usually resulted in party disapproval.  Tone is everything.  This whole dialogue wheel contraption seems to have a paraphrase AND an indication of the TONE.  Which, in my opinion, is better, because in previous games, TONE was never identifiable until the NPC you're speaking with responded to your dialogue choice.

The argument that the Voiced PC takes away from the game is a slight bit inaccurate.  I believe it has already been pointed out, but if they DIDN'T voice the PC, that money wouldn't necessarily go toward other aspects of development.  It would simply mean that the game would cost less for them to develop.  No effect on any of us.  As far as resources go, what game isn't fully voiced nowadays?  Realistically, it isn't THAT much of a damper on system resources.  And, honestly, who cares if it takes two DVDs to install the game.  If you're worried about the resources a game requires, play on a console, but as far as resources are concerned, the beauty of PC gaming is that you can always upgrade to take advantage of the things you miss out on.  Sure, it can cost Bioware/EA a decent amount of money for voice acting.  Having the PC voiced IS a lot of work, and they will spend more money on this, but AGAIN, if they didn't spend the money on it, it's not like THAT money will go towards another aspect of the game.  IT wont.  The only downfall is how much of it is going to effect content.  Which has no bearing on Voiced>Unvoiced, its all in how BIOWARE does it.  If they choose to go the cheap route and nix some of the dialogue options to reduce the cost, then its BIOWARE's decision.  Having a game fully voiced doesn't reduce the amount of content.  The Devs do.

Lastly, to say that you don't feel engrossed because you can hear someone speaking doesn't seem to make sense to me.  Everyone is entitled to their opinions, but I was one of the people who felt LESS engrossed in the game when you were supposedly this GREAT leader, but you hardly said a word.  There was a few points throughout the game where I felt the Warden should be speaking when Allistair or someone else said something.  Silent protagonists seem to fit a  detatched approach, whereas, if I'm telling him to say *F$$$ OFF, DARKSPAWN!* feels much more engrossing.
/rant.

Modifié par outlaw1109, 22 novembre 2010 - 05:11 .

[ejoslin]

It's all just opinion, there's no 'true or untrue' about it. For some people, a voiced protagonist does take away from the game (I'm one of them). For others, they prefer it. Neither is wrong; they just have different preferences.



As far as money being allocated? If you're given a budget, it stands to reason if you pick a less expensive design decision, you have more money to spend elsewhere. but i have no clue (nor do you) how the finances work in this case.



What games aren't fully voiced? Fallout New Vegas comes to mind.



so why rant?

[AlanC9]

It is nice to see the "Evil EA is making Bioware cut costs with DA2" line turned on its head, though.

[ejoslin]

I suppose i have come to the DA2 forums at a bad time, as it seems that even if i don't say something, it gets tossed out there as if I had.  I suppose there's a history here with people who prefer a voiced protagonist making other arguments.

I don't think EA is making bioware cut costs -- they would be incredibly silly if they did, seeing as they really want the release of DA2 to come more quickly. DA2 has made some incredibly expensive design decisions, and they are releasing quite soon after DA. DAO was wildly successful, there is reason to allocate more money to the franchise.

Of course, things were cut from DAO, such as the length of time DLCs were going to be released. I don't see that as a bad thing, though, as most of the DLC seemed pretty cheaply made, and may have actually detracted from DAO (maybe not, I could be wrong on this). If the resources cut from DAO DLCs were then allocated to the development of DA2, this could be a very good thing.

Modifié par ejoslin, 22 novembre 2010 - 05:28 .

[Sylvius the Mad]

Maria Caliban wrote...

In a game like DA:O the PC *never expresses emotion.* Not visually, not textually, and not audibly.

I'm not even talking about regular interaction where we might dismiss it as a stoic PC. No, the PC leaves their parents to die with as much sorrow and regret as one might expect to see from a water cooler. They make love while looking bored and uninvolved.

I agree entirely with this, but I also think it's a very good thing.

It is better for the PC to express no emotion than for the PC to express the wrong emotion.  Since the expression of emotion is not a necessary consequence of the existence of that emotion, the lack of emotional expression still leaves the player total freedom to determine the PC's emotional state.

As soon as the PC starts expressing emotion in game as determined by the game's writers, that control is lost.

[Sylvius the Mad]

Urazz wrote...

Not entirely, if the line pisses off another character or makes one happy then you can infer if it was sarcastic, truthful, etc.

You can, but why would you?

[Nighteye2]

Jshay512 wrote...

Nighteye2 wrote...

TS2Aggie wrote...

Nighteye2 wrote...

Mr. Man wrote...
There is a really easy solution for all those who don't like the vioce acting:
press mute, turn on subtitles, enjoy.
However let those who like the vioce acting (like me) enjoy it.

That only works if only the player is muted, and the option also replaces the dialogue wheel by a full-text menu.

Otherwise, you are left with only downsides. You miss out on all the good things that have been sacrificed for the VA, as well as the VA itself. >_>

We all have to make sacrifices. If the voice acting matters to you that much, there's your solution.

I couldn't care less about the voice acting. I do, however, care about all the things that were cut because of the voice acting.

I'd rather have a choice of race, multiple origins and full-text - instead of a voiced protagonist with those inaccurate paraphrases in that dialogue wheel.

People that keep asking for multiple origins don't get that the point of the game is for a human refugee to fight his way into becoming a champion. It wouldn't work as well if it was and elf or dwarf. The dialog wheel will actually be a pretty cool idea if they do it well.

Lothering wasn't the only place overrun by the Blight, though. There could easily be other places with elves and dwarves or even qunari that were overrun by the Blight and so might make a suitable origin for DA2.

[Maria Caliban]

outlaw1109 wrote...

You can't compare the game to books or movies, because it is neither a book, nor a movie. 

It depends on what you're comparing. There are some elements that work in any visual medium. There are some elements that work for any sort of classical storytelling.

For example:




Good use of color and body language can enhance movies, TV shows, plays, paintings, photos, and video games.

[outlaw1109]

ejoslin wrote...

It's all just opinion, there's no 'true or untrue' about it. For some people, a voiced protagonist does take away from the game (I'm one of them). For others, they prefer it. Neither is wrong; they just have different preferences.

As far as money being allocated? If you're given a budget, it stands to reason if you pick a less expensive design decision, you have more money to spend elsewhere. but i have no clue (nor do you) how the finances work in this case.

What games aren't fully voiced? Fallout New Vegas comes to mind.

so why rant?

Definitions of rant on the Web:talk in a noisy, excited, or declamatory manner

To express an opinion, as is the purpose of these forums in the first place.  I rant because I felt the need to express MY opinion, since no one else has.

To answer your other question, no, I can't say for certain, but the Budget is determined off of estimated cost.  It isn't  just AWARDED "Here is the budget for DA 2."  These things are implemented based off of what the devs. plan on doing with the game.  Since the videogame market is ever expanding, the budget for last years title shouldn't be the same as this years, else the industry would probably collaspse. I do have a clue, however, as countless others do as well.  I'm not saying that I KNOW THE EXACT FINANCIAL SITUATION, but I have a clue because of friends/family who work in the Game Development industry.  I'm not the only person here with said experience, but to say that I don't have a clue would imply that you know, or think you know-as is the case- my level of understanding.  But I digress, the point of this is that they had DECIDED to include the fully voiced PC before they recieved the budget and it was thus included in the budget.  If they had chosen a different path, the additional money provided FOR voice acting would have been non-existant within the budget itself.  Thus, it couldn't be applied elsewhere.

[Nighteye2]

SirOccam wrote...
As I said much earlier in the thread...they've got to play to the strengths of the medium through which they've chosen to tell their story. There's nothing wrong with "showing" rather than "telling," especially considering that a major part of video games is...video. Using text instead of visuals is not more "sophisticated" or whatever, and not being in favor of using more text doesn't mean someone must therefore have an attention span problem. They used text in the old days because that's all they could do. Well times have changed, and they have access to things now that they didn't a couple of decades ago. Avoiding those things because they deviate from "the good old days" is just foolish.

But avoiding those things because they're a waste of money better spent elsewhere isn't. Games used to be a lot cheaper to produce, without all those expensive new techniques...

[Sylvius the Mad]

Voicing the NPCs also created the expectation that the PC would be voiced, and so far voicing the PC only serves to reduce player agency.

[Addai]

Maria Caliban wrote...

Good use of color and body language can enhance movies, TV shows, plays, paintings, photos, and video games.

I don't think anyone disputes this, but for a roleplay game, I want to have control of the "brush" being used to paint the PC, as much as possible.  When that control is taken out of my hands, it's less my character and more someone else's that I'm just influencing as I would influence any NPC.

[ejoslin]

outlaw1109 wrote...

Definitions of rant on the Web:talk in a noisy, excited, or declamatory manner

To express an opinion, as is the purpose of these forums in the first place.  I rant because I felt the need to express MY opinion, since no one else has.

To answer your other question, no, I can't say for certain, but the Budget is determined off of estimated cost.  It isn't  just AWARDED "Here is the budget for DA 2."  These things are implemented based off of what the devs. plan on doing with the game.  Since the videogame market is ever expanding, the budget for last years title shouldn't be the same as this years, else the industry would probably collaspse. I do have a clue, however, as countless others do as well.  I'm not saying that I KNOW THE EXACT FINANCIAL SITUATION, but I have a clue because of friends/family who work in the Game Development industry.  I'm not the only person here with said experience, but to say that I don't have a clue would imply that you know, or think you know-as is the case- my level of understanding.  But I digress, the point of this is that they had DECIDED to include the fully voiced PC before they recieved the budget and it was thus included in the budget.  If they had chosen a different path, the additional money provided FOR voice acting would have been non-existant within the budget itself.  Thus, it couldn't be applied elsewhere.

A lot of people agree with you. Rest easy. it's people who like the silent protagonist who are in the minority in this thread apparently.

And i would find it just as likely if "voice actors" were what they were asking for when it came to that part of the budget, not separated between the protagonist and other characters. so you're still looking at resources that could have been spent on further or deeper conversations of the protagonist is silent. I also wouldn't be surprised if there was some idea there of what their budget may be when making the original design of the game. how could they even begin to design a game without that knowledge? Perhaps they had asked for a lot more for voice acting because of the voiced protagonist and far less was approved, so cuts had to be made? You just do not know this.

Anyway, my intent is not to offend, or cause people to rant. while I vastly prefer a silent protagonist, what I prefer is not too relevant considering what actually is, in DA2, is a voiced one. That doesn't mean i can't say why i prefer a silent one without upsetting people i hope.

Modifié par ejoslin, 22 novembre 2010 - 05:55 .

[AlanC9]

outlaw1109 wrote...
But I digress, the point of this is that they had DECIDED to include the fully voiced PC before they recieved the budget and it was thus included in the budget.  If they had chosen a different path, the additional money provided FOR voice acting would have been non-existant within the budget itself.  Thus, it couldn't be applied elsewhere.

I don't quite follow this. It just assumes that the non-voiced path would be lower cost; on what basis are you assuming that an alternate DA2 plan would necessarily be a cheaper one?

[Maria Caliban]

Addai67 wrote...

Maria Caliban wrote...

Good use of color and body language can enhance movies, TV shows, plays, paintings, photos, and video games.

I don't think anyone disputes this, but for a roleplay game, I want to have control of the "brush" being used to paint the PC, as much as possible.  When that control is taken out of my hands, it's less my character and more someone else's that I'm just influencing as I would influence any NPC.

I think roleplaying games have a spectrum from the highly defined Witcher to the utterly undefined and nameless heroes of the Elder Scrolls. To me, it's a matter of depth vs breadth.

Yes, I can come up with any sort of personality for an Elder Scrolls PC. but there's little to no way to make that a meaningful character, while the Witcher is obviously well fleshed out but that's all you can play.

For example, in the human noble origin, my character's facial expression and body language are fairly neutral for a woman leaving her mother and father to die. I'd expect tears or at least body language that gives a strong sense of despair, but that might class with someone's character concept.

Or what about the sex scenes?



If my partner had that expression during sex, I'd assume they were very unhappy with my performance.

I'd prefer a game that supports a few, well-defined personalities. In a computer RPG, "you can be anybody" often translates to "you can play fifteen cardboard cut outs of a human being person while your actions are still completely dictated by the writing."

[Sylvius the Mad]

Maria Caliban wrote...

Yes, I can come up with any sort of personality for an Elder Scrolls PC. but there's little to no way to make that a meaningful character

There's little or no way to make that character's personality meaningful to the game world, but that doesn't prevent it from being meaningful to you.

[Nighteye2]

kylecouch wrote...
Your argument is still flawed...because even in DAO you still lack that choice, you are still forced to decide from amoung pre-existing dialogue options. What if you want to say something none of them provide? it's still the same problem...VO or not it changes absolutly nothing in regards to choice restraint.

Then at least you know which options are available to pick from, being able to read them all instead of having to rely on paraphrases and symbols.

[TheRevanchist]

Sylvius the Mad wrote...

Maria Caliban wrote...

In a game like DA:O the PC *never expresses emotion.* Not visually, not textually, and not audibly.

I'm not even talking about regular interaction where we might dismiss it as a stoic PC. No, the PC leaves their parents to die with as much sorrow and regret as one might expect to see from a water cooler. They make love while looking bored and uninvolved.

I agree entirely with this, but I also think it's a very good thing.

It is better for the PC to express no emotion than for the PC to express the wrong emotion.  Since the expression of emotion is not a necessary consequence of the existence of that emotion, the lack of emotional expression still leaves the player total freedom to determine the PC's emotional state.

As soon as the PC starts expressing emotion in game as determined by the game's writers, that control is lost.

Thats the thing...you DONT have total freedom, only an illusion of it. You still play the character the writer wants you to play regardless if the PC has a VA or not. You can't lose control you never had to begin with. Each dialogue choice already comes with pre-determined tones that the NPC's react too. Simply dismissing those reactions as "misunderstandings" does not grant you total freedom. You simply try to reject the writers tone to usurp your own. But no matter how you reject them the NPC's will always "misunderstand" if the thone you imagine does not match the one the writers created. In this case the NPC's are simply moronic.

[Lyssistr]

AlanC9 wrote...

outlaw1109 wrote...
But I digress, the point of this is that they had DECIDED to include the fully voiced PC before they recieved the budget and it was thus included in the budget.  If they had chosen a different path, the additional money provided FOR voice acting would have been non-existant within the budget itself.  Thus, it couldn't be applied elsewhere.

I don't quite follow this. It just assumes that the non-voiced path would be lower cost; on what basis are you assuming that an alternate DA2 plan would necessarily be a cheaper one?

 this is cost for voice actor vs cost for including race customization for character. No-one has the numbers at hand but it's reasonable to assume that voice acting costs more, provided that the actor is somewhat known (e.g. ME2's actors were quite well known).

 Tbh voice acting is fine, if it's good it can help immersion. Not that I have any particular preference on that matter both VOd and mute protagonist are fine.

[ejoslin]

Maria Caliban wrote...

For example, in the human noble origin, my character's facial expression and body language are fairly neutral for a woman leaving her mother and father to die. I'd expect tears or at least body language that gives a strong sense of despair, but that might class with someone's character concept.

Or what about the sex scenes?

Some of the sex scenes are better than others.  The DR one is not great.  there are definitely facial expressions in many of them, however.  Zevran's actually are quite good as far as showing emotions (the underwear is far more detracting).

As far as the human noble?  I think this screenshot shows both unhappiness on the HN face and helplessness on Duncan's.  the positioning is unfortunate here (it's the only screenshot I have of that scene), but there are definitely emotions going on there.  same with just before you undergo the joining.  

Modifié par ejoslin, 22 novembre 2010 - 06:18 .

[Oshunsar]

Maria Caliban wrote...

I've previously found silent characters amusing and have often noticed how in third person games like Dragon Age, Jade Empire, or even non-RPGs like Dead Space, a silent, emotionless protagonist feels very odd. Voiced NPCs usually have an emotional depth that the non-voiced PC doesn't get.

At the same time, Dude!Shep's voice was the reason I could never play Dude!Shep. I had no problem with the Witcher because I don't really 'identify' with that character, but I find myself worried that Lady Hawke's voice will turn me off.

Agreed.

So as native German I have the opprotunity to play femshep in English (wich is GREAT) and dudeshep in German (which is NOT like the English, but an voiceactor who knows to differentiate and fits). German femshep on the other hand was like pinching in the ears...

So, yes, overall: Voice off only for main character would be appreciated.

[upsettingshorts]

This is a general point:

I suggest avoiding any "X cost we don't know is more than Y cost we don't know which takes up more of budget Z we don't know" discussions. Because they're nonsense.

[Ortaya Alevli]

ejoslin wrote...

Maria Caliban wrote...

For example, in the human noble origin, my character's facial expression and body language are fairly neutral for a woman leaving her mother and father to die. I'd expect tears or at least body language that gives a strong sense of despair, but that might class with someone's character concept.

Or what about the sex scenes?

Some of the sex scenes are better than others.  The DR one is not great.  there are definitely facial expressions in many of them, however.  Zevran's actually are quite good as far as showing emotions (the underwear is far more detracting).

As far as the human noble?  I think this screenshot shows both unhappiness on the HN face and helplessness on Duncan's.  the positioning is unfortunate here (it's the only screenshot I have of that scene), but there are definitely emotions going on there.  same with just before you undergo the joining.  

I don't know whether this shot was meant to be an example of human noble or sex scenes.