885 réponses à ce sujet

[Ziggeh]

Davasar wrote...
Bio alienated one play group to appease another. There's no way around it: one group will be unhappy.

You could include both systems by having the text toggle between phrase and paraphrase (added benefit of reduced ambiguity if you allow it to toggle mid-sequence) and one that shuts the VO and resulting cinematic off. Obviously that's more development, but not a vast amount given the potential benefit (the amount depending on game engine and things like "is the full phrase text already in a format that one can bash it straight in), and of course as far at the "RP type" player is concerned the game spent resources on a feature they never used.

This is all of course assuming that the voice isn't used elsewhere, cut scenes and the like.

Modifié par ziggehunderslash, 23 novembre 2010 - 03:18 .

[mr_luga]

I hate paraphrasing, so much. I've lost count how many times i've reloaded in mass effect games becouse I need to check what he is acually saying with all three options before deciding which one is the right one for me >.< So frustrating

[In Exile]

You can't just turn off a cinematic. If you script the behaviour of the PC based on a dialogue choice or the behaviour of the NPC based on that choice, you're either keeping that in or building a second game. That's just implausible.

[Sylvius the Mad]

In Exile wrote...

You can't just turn off a cinematic. If you script the behaviour of the PC based on a dialogue choice or the behaviour of the NPC based on that choice, you're either keeping that in or building a second game. That's just implausible.

The paraphrase system already requires that they write every line twice.  At worst, allowing us to disable the cinematics and voice-over would require only that the lines be written a third time.

[Urazz]

Davasar wrote...

I do not think that the play styles can ever be reconciled, look at all the strife here on these boards over it with multiple threads.

Bio alienated one play group to appease another. There's no way around it: one group will be unhappy.

But think of it this way, which group is bigger?

Hell, with all the complaining and criticism in the ME2 forums, you'd think it was a lousy game but the number of sales for it say otherwise and shows that those people are in the minority.  So the complaining here gets me thinking that these people are in the minority as well.  Won't know for sure until the game is released and we get an idea of how well it sales but that's what I'm thinking.

[Sylvius the Mad]

Urazz wrote...

But think of it this way, which group is bigger?

We can't know that without controlling a bunch of variables.  And we can't control those variables.

BioWare themslves claim that DAO outsold ME2, so based on that one data point the old-style DAO approach is favoured by the larger group.  But again, there's way too much noise in that signal.

Hell, with all the complaining and criticism in the ME2 forums, you'd
think it was a lousy game but the number of sales for it say otherwise
and shows that those people are in the minority.

Even that conclusion isn't supported by the data.  ME2 sold quite well, yes, but there's no measure of the people it displeased.

Modifié par Sylvius the Mad, 23 novembre 2010 - 05:33 .

[Ziggeh]

In Exile wrote...

You can't just turn off a cinematic. If you script the behaviour of the PC based on a dialogue choice or the behaviour of the NPC based on that choice, you're either keeping that in or building a second game. That's just implausible.

True, I haven't played either ME for some time so I could only think of the more extreme mid dialogue actions, but the more I think about it the more involved they seem. You could restrict them to fit both, but that would rather defeat the object.

[Dave of Canada]

Sylvius the Mad wrote...

Even that conclusion isn't supported by the data.  ME2 sold quite well, yes, but there's no measure of the people it displeased.

It did enough things right that it remains a strong contender for Game of the Year, almost a year after it came out.

[Maria Caliban]

Davasar wrote...

I do not think that the play styles can ever be reconciled, look at all the strife here on these boards over it with multiple threads.

Bio alienated one play group to appease another. There's no way around it: one group will be unhappy.

You're forgetting the silent majority who don't care one way or another. Even on this forum "Can I bury my face in Varric's chest hair?" is a more pressing concern than "Is the PC voiced or not?"

[errant_knight]

Maria Caliban wrote...

Davasar wrote...

I do not think that the play styles can ever be reconciled, look at all the strife here on these boards over it with multiple threads.

Bio alienated one play group to appease another. There's no way around it: one group will be unhappy.

You're forgetting the silent majority who don't care one way or another. Even on this forum "Can I bury my face in Varric's chest hair?" is a more pressing concern than "Is the PC voiced or not?"

That frightens me. Just a little.

[AlanC9]

ziggehunderslash wrote...

You could include both systems by having the text toggle between phrase and paraphrase (added benefit of reduced ambiguity if you allow it to toggle mid-sequence)

This probably isn't workable on consoles. Many of the VOd PC lines aren't going to fit on the interface if ME2's dialog is any guide. I guess it would work on PC if you blew up the dialog wheel to take up the whole screen, but I'm not sure there's any solution for consoles, since so much of that user base has effectively smaller screens than PC users since they don't sit next to their screens the way we do.

Of course, Bio could just not do the toggle on consoles.

[Maria Caliban]

errant_knight wrote...

That frightens me. Just a little.

It frightens me. More than a little.

[Jshay512]

Haha how did varric get into this post?

[Jshay512]

AlanC9 wrote...

Revan312 wrote...
....regardless I retain the argument that heavy readers are on a whole more intelligent than heavy video game/movie/tv watchers..

Depends on what 's being read and watched, doesn't it? If someone puts fans of Caprica up against John Grisham's readers, I'm taking TV.

Ok i read like 2 pages of this debate and am so far behind that his might have already been said but it hasn't yet. Reading in my mind is more stimulating. If you compare watching a movie -Lord of the Rings- as an example and reading the book Lord of the Rings. Reading it
should -i say should because it isn't for everyone- be much more stimulating and get people more into the story.

In books you make the movie in your own mind. You decide what the characters look like based on how the writer described then, you decided what the setting looks like in your own mind, you also decide how the people talk -like accents and all that junk.- Movies though you do not do any of this. Movies you are watching someone else's view of the book. They decided all of those things for you. You might get sucked into a movie but in the end it's not really the same.

-sorry for person im quoting i didn't feel like finding one of the other posts that was more tv is better than reading a book.- You make a good point about it depends on what you read and watch, but if you compare two similar things being read and watch* reading is -in my opinion- better.
edit * watched, 

Modifié par Jshay512, 23 novembre 2010 - 12:21 .

[Nighteye2]

Ortaya Alevli wrote...

At which point does a CRPG series devolve into an interactive movie with RPG elements, I wonder?

Heavy Rain mentioned above is a good example.

I thought Heavy Rain had no RPG elements left, at all...

Sir JK wrote...

CoS Sarah Jinstar wrote...

Upsettingshorts wrote...

Nighteye2 wrote...
Yes, some people prefer interactive movies over role-playing, bluntly put. I'm not one of those people. <_<

Yes, some people like inaccurately summarizing opposing viewpoints in order to discredit them, blunt put.  I'm not one of those people.  <_<
...well, unless I've been drinking...

Actually thats not too far from what it is really. When you really think about it.

I can only speak for myself naturally (and anyone sharing my position) but that is not a good summary of my viewpoint.

I like consequences and reactions in my roleplaying. It's a underlying fundament of it in fact, it is through choices and the reactions that I find who my character is this time. I interact with the world, pick the choices I think fits my characters best and then watches as the world reacts to that choice.

So I'm given a bunch of choice, some of which are ambigous enough to interpret several meanings. I might have x options but up to 2x interpretations.
However I only have x reactions. There lies the problem, I have more options than reactions. To some people this allows for greater freedom and more choices. But my approach is shackled. The illusion of communication shattered. The lack of reactions feel like a greater limitation than few options ever could.

That is why I prefer a voiced PC. Yes, I get fewer choices which is regretable. But at least the setting will react to what I say no matter what I choose. It's not perfect but it is, to me, acceptable.
Am I making sense?

You are, but you can have what you want without a voiced PC. I like reactions and consequences as well, just as you do - but a voiced PC is not required to have them.

[FieryDove]

Urazz wrote...

But think of it this way, which group is bigger?

Hell, with all the complaining and criticism in the ME2 forums, you'd think it was a lousy game but the number of sales for it say otherwise and shows that those people are in the minority.  So the complaining here gets me thinking that these people are in the minority as well.  Won't know for sure until the game is released and we get an idea of how well it sales but that's what I'm thinking.

I bought ME2 because of ME1. My mistake. I also think ME1 would have done so much better at least in PC sales if the DRM wasn't so horrible. Truth be told I didn't buy ME1 till the tool was about to came out and by then it was $10 bargin bin. I would have gladly paid full retail for me1 if the drm had been reasonable. Imho

[Nerevar-as]

AFAIK, ME2 sales are around ME1, so it wasn´t a videogame blockbuster either, would be interesting to see a sales/month chart of both games.

I wouldn´t mind VO if race choice had remained. At least an elf should be easy to write into the story, with a conflict involving the Chantry I´d would have liked to play as one. Time for payback for the Dales.

[upsettingshorts]

Nighteye2 wrote...
You are, but you can have what you want without a voiced PC. I like reactions and consequences as well, just as you do - but a voiced PC is not required to have them.

Selecting an option and hearing an actor deliver the line of the protagonist is a reaction and consequence.  Remember that from my perspective I am and always have been playing the writers' story. If they went back to full text but add a narrator's description of tone/intent, for example, I'd be fine with that.  However, I doubt that they will, and I'll always view a silent protagonist with voiced NPCs as the worst way to go about things* - even if I tolerate it in plenty of games I otherwise enjoy. 

The playstyles can't be reconciled.  That schism didn't reveal itself until fully voiced characters and the dialogue wheel were designed, but now that it does, there's no mending it.  I'll never be in favor of going back to traditional systems, just as I doubt fans of the said traditional systems will truly embrace the dialogue wheel.  I want all RPGs to use something like or inspired by DA:2's system.  That probably translates to something like, "I love the worst system ever" from where a lot of people sit, but that's how far apart I think these approaches to CRPGs are. 

* For a different reason, consistency.  If all characters in the game world don't communicate on the same level it's jarring to me.  All text or all voice is my preference.

Modifié par Upsettingshorts, 23 novembre 2010 - 07:45 .

[Jshay512]

I was kinda hoping we would get a developer/ writer to come on and explain the whole voice over and wheel things.

[Maria Caliban]

Jshay512 wrote...

I was kinda hoping we would get a developer/ writer to come on and explain the whole voice over and wheel things.

They've spoken about them before and it's not like we need an explanation of how they work.

[Nighteye2]

Upsettingshorts wrote...

Nighteye2 wrote...
You are, but you can have what you want without a voiced PC. I like reactions and consequences as well, just as you do - but a voiced PC is not required to have them.

Selecting an option and hearing an actor deliver the line of the protagonist is a reaction and consequence.  Remember that from my perspective I am and always have been playing the writers' story. If they went back to full text but add a narrator's description of tone/intent, for example, I'd be fine with that.

I'd be fine with that, too. The paraphrases bother me much more than the voice itself, although I still don't like the cost of that voice.

I can't think of a better middle-ground option, containing something for both camps.

[upsettingshorts]

Eh, there is no middle ground. Only a sliding scale of relative disappointment. "Fine" in this context is I'd accept it, I wouldn't exactly be thrilled.

[Ortaya Alevli]

Nighteye2 wrote...

Ortaya Alevli wrote...

At which point does a CRPG series devolve into an interactive movie with RPG elements, I wonder?

Heavy Rain mentioned above is a good example.

I thought Heavy Rain had no RPG elements left, at all...

Then you and I thought differently.

[Sylvius the Mad]

Upsettingshorts wrote...

* For a different reason, consistency.  If all characters in the game world don't communicate on the same level it's jarring to me.  All text or all voice is my preference.

If those are my options, I choose all text.

Though I'd rather the characters I'm not controlling be voiced, at least partially.

[Jshay512]

Sylvius the Mad wrote...

Upsettingshorts wrote...

* For a different reason, consistency.  If all characters in the game world don't communicate on the same level it's jarring to me.  All text or all voice is my preference.

If those are my options, I choose all text.

Though I'd rather the characters I'm not controlling be voiced, at least partially.

I would agree for the most part. I would pick all text but i have about a 55% want for text and 45% want for voice. If there is a good voice it might be 53% 47%  but in the end text wins by a hair both times.