885 réponses à ce sujet

[philbo1965uk]

I don't like my PC to have a voice...it removes one from, when the idea is to immerse yourself into the game.



The whole concept of role playing is ruined IMO...

[DarthCaine]

For the protagonist? Not really, but it helps. It's much more cinematic with a voiced protagonist giving him/her much more character. For example, I'm pretty sure most people would never say that The Warden is a better protagonist than JC Denton. I just hate the freakin paraphrasing that comes with voiced protagonists in recent games.

For everyone else? I sure as hell hope so. No VA ruins immersion. The main reason I rank PS: T below my top 10 RPGs is because of the barely any VA part. It just makes the game so dull and MUCH less immersive, I felt like I've gone deaf while playing it. If it had full VO it'd be in my top 5 RPGs mostly 'cos of the story. No VA is the reason I never could get into BG

No matter how good a story is, it's the presentation that matters the most and no VA gives an extremly bad presentation. Games should be more like movies, not books

Modifié par DarthCaine, 20 novembre 2010 - 03:41 .

[Sir JK]

TMZuk wrote...
It is NOT baseless assumption that VO costs money and takes up space, and therefore acts as a limitation on how much content you can have. While that does not mean that there would automaticly be more content if there was no VO, it certainly does mean that if the money and space is NOT wasted on VO, they can be used on content instead.

I did a simplistic analysis of that a few posts up.

I will not argue the space. You're absolutely right there. The audio-files does take up some space. If that can be used better for something else I cannot discuss, I'm not that well versed in the art of making computer games.

However, as I mentioned above, PC voiceacting is just one part of the project. While the biggest part of voiceacting specifically, we cannot just assume it is more expensive than anything else. Just throwing the money somewhere else won't equate more content there. Time is still the limiting factor and if everyone else is too busy finishing what they got to do then throwing more money won't do a thing.
Using the PC voiceover budget on something else is no guarantee the game would be any longer or more content rich. Unless it is so expensive to do voiceovers that you could use a single one to pay for more time (let me approximate the scale of that: look at the credits for DA:O. That's how many people would need to be paid for the extra time requested). But that is very unlikely.
Chances are the PC voiceover budget, while costing money, wouldn't add to the creative process of any other department. Tossing money at a problem does not solutions make.

[ptibog]

DarthCaine wrote...


No matter how good a story is, it's the presentation that matters the most and no VA gives an extremly bad presentation. Games should be more like movies, not books

so, movies are more immersive than books? I don't think so.

RPG should be more like books, not movies.

[Sir JK]

ptibog wrote...
so, movies are more immersive than books? I don't think so.

RPG should be more like books, not movies.

I have a better suggestion:

Let books be books, Movies be movies, RPGs be RPGs and cRPGs be cRPGs. Each and everyone of them playing on their strengths and compensating for their weaknesses.

Modifié par Sir JK, 20 novembre 2010 - 03:48 .

[DarthCaine]

ptibog wrote...

DarthCaine wrote...


No matter how good a story is, it's the presentation that matters the most and no VA gives an extremly bad presentation. Games should be more like movies, not books

so, movies are more immersive than books? I don't think so.

RPG should be more like books, not movies.

You need to let go of the past and the nostalgia. These are modern times, it's like saying that all modern adventure games should be freakin text adventures. Or that all modern FPSs should run on the Doom 2 engine and have no story. Or that all modern movies should be black and white with no sound. cRPGs shouldn't be the same as 20 years ago, everything should evolve.

My point isn't that movies are more immersive that books. It's that games SHOULDN'T be books (ANY game). It's not the same level of immersion reading a book and staring into a monitor with crappy pixels and lots of text.

You "old gamers" stuck in the past may tolerate such stuff, but not the modern gamer.

Modifié par DarthCaine, 20 novembre 2010 - 03:55 .

[ptibog]

Sir JK wrote...

ptibog wrote...
so, movies are more immersive than books? I don't think so.

RPG should be more like books, not movies.

I have a better suggestion:

Let books be books, Movies be movies, RPGs be RPGs and cRPGs be cRPGs. Each and everyone of them playing on their strengths and compensating for their weaknesses.

And let mass effect be mass effect and dragon age age be dragon age?
You should suggest that to Bioware.
Oh...too late.

[philbo1965uk]

DarthCaine wrote...

For the protagonist? Not really, but it helps. It's much more cinematic with a voiced protagonist giving him/her much more character. For example, I'm pretty sure most people would never say that The Warden is a better protagonist than JC Denton. 

No VA ruins immersion. The main reason I rank PS: T below my top 10 RPGs is because of the barely any VA part. It just makes the game so dull and MUCH less immersive, I felt like I've gone deaf while playing it. If it had full VO it'd be in my top 5 RPGs mostly 'cos of the story. No VA is the reason I never could get into BG

No matter how good a story is, it's the presentation that matters the most and no VA gives an extremly bad presentation. Games should be more like movies, not books

I would want to say that VA for other characters ingame do indeed enhance the game play...but there we part.

Having a voiced Protaganist that is not your own....is very irritating and Alien.To be blunt the Sheppard voice was the sole reason for stopping playing after 20 mins.It got on my ******.

I'm interested in how people with the opposite opinion feel that they are immersed in the PC ..you are hearing someone elses voice.How do you associate that with self ?

You must not be sharing the same immersive experience that I am..so in that regard you are missing out.

I 'AM' the Warden...

[Dave of Canada]

ptibog wrote...

And let mass effect be mass effect and dragon age age be dragon age?
You should suggest that to Bioware.
Oh...too late.

I didn't know Dragon Age had spaceships and guns.

[Aldandil]

ptibog wrote...

Sir JK wrote...

ptibog wrote...
so, movies are more immersive than books? I don't think so.

RPG should be more like books, not movies.

I have a better suggestion:

Let books be books, Movies be movies, RPGs be RPGs and cRPGs be cRPGs. Each and everyone of them playing on their strengths and compensating for their weaknesses.

And let mass effect be mass effect and dragon age age be dragon age?
You should suggest that to Bioware.
Oh...too late.

That type of complaint will sound relevant when we fire our bows like a TPS, combat means moving between covers and we don't get to control more than one character ever. Having a voiced PC means that we get a voiced PC. Shouting "Dragon Effect" is inaccurate and old...

[DarthCaine]

philbo1965uk wrote...

I'm interested in how people with the opposite opinion feel that they are immersed in the PC ..you are hearing someone elses voice.How do you associate that with self ?

No, I seem him as a character with emotions and feeling, where as I see the Warden as just an avatar for me that speaks one or two sentances per dialogue while NPCs give what seem to be monologues.

Here's an example just how a voiced protagonist is much better:

You just can't do epic speeches and stuff like that with a mute protagonist.

BioWare spoke about this, ME and DA2 have a third person narrative, while DAO, BG etc have a first person narrative. It's still an RPG, just not the same type of RPG from 20 years ago, just like modern films aren't black and white with no sound.

You must not be sharing the same immersive experience that I am..so in that regard you are missing out.

Since you didn't play ME (and probably The Witcher and Deus Ex too) I'm pretty sure YOU're the one that's missing out on a whole lot more.

Modifié par DarthCaine, 20 novembre 2010 - 04:14 .

[hexaligned]

"Modernization" is an interesting argument. I wonder how many people would like to see money taken away from things like, the writing team, or the QA team (or whatever) and spent on things like Kinect support, or true 3d enablement. Judging by some of the people on this forum I think quite a few would, I certainly wouldn't though. Voice doesn't add anything to the game for me,(hell I usually game with the sound off and music playing anyways) all it does is cut down on resources available to things that actually add quality and polish to the story/game mechanics.

[nightcobra]

Dave of Canada wrote...

ptibog wrote...

And let mass effect be mass effect and dragon age age be dragon age?
You should suggest that to Bioware.
Oh...too late.

I didn't know Dragon Age had spaceships and guns.

reposting this for the fun of it:P




don't you know that this is the bonus character of the Signature edition?


/sarcasm

[DarthCaine]

relhart wrote...

"Modernization" is an interesting argument. I wonder how many people would like to see money taken away from things like, the writing team, or the QA team (or whatever) and spent on things like Kinect support, or true 3d enablement. Judging by some of the people on this forum I think quite a few would, I certainly wouldn't though

This forum is contained of elitists from the BG era, on a lot of other places people complained why The Warden wasn't voiced

[Dave of Canada]

Ms. Lovey Dovey wrote...

Game mechanic wise and the feel of it is very ME.

*points at Aldanil's post*

I don't see it.

Modifié par Dave of Canada, 20 novembre 2010 - 04:05 .

[Sir JK]

ptibog wrote...
And let mass effect be mass effect and dragon age age be dragon age?
You should suggest that to Bioware.
Oh...too late.

I don't want to derail the thread. But I think that statement is a bit exaggerated.

Bioware wants to break the standard fantasy mold and instead of telling us the good old "save the world"-monomyth again. Instead they opt for a personal story. A story about someone. About personal growth, of emotion and of character. Taking a step further from classic rpg storytelling towards more advanced literary techniques.

Now... here comes the crux. Personal stories need characterisation (which comes at the cost of customisation due to the prewritten nature of the game, but that's offtopic. PM me if you want to discuss that) which needs acting. Acting does however need emotion. A voiceless PC cannot carry emotion. Here is where the voice comes in. For the same reason our warden was not the one holding the speech before the battle for Denerim Hawke will have a voice. Because just like epic rousing speeches, personal stories needs pathos. Pathos is entirely delivered by voice.

Therefore DA2 has a voice. Not because they want it to be more like ME, but because the story they want to tell needs it. The unknown "random" tabula rasa we are so used to cannot tell this story.
(The other "mass effect changes" are off topic so I will not discuss them here, pm me if you wish to discuss those. I'll just adress the value of voice here)

[Saibh]

philbo1965uk wrote...

I would want to say that VA for other characters ingame do indeed enhance the game play...but there we part.

Having a voiced Protaganist that is not your own....is very irritating and Alien.To be blunt the Sheppard voice was the sole reason for stopping playing after 20 mins.It got on my ******.

I'm interested in how people with the opposite opinion feel that they are immersed in the PC ..you are hearing someone elses voice.How do you associate that with self ?

You must not be sharing the same immersive experience that I am..so in that regard you are missing out.

I 'AM' the Warden...

Right, well. I don't think of myself as the Warden. I roleplay. A character. Who is not me. I don't romance Alistair. Howe didn't kill my family. My character does. I think there are merits to both sides--voiced and silent. For this story, I think a voiced character makes sense. Just as Shepard makes sense as a voice protagonist.

[In Exile]

I can't handle an unvoiced PC. The incredible contrast between how the PC is handled and how an NPC is handled makes the game very aversive for me. The biggest issue is with the cinematic appeal of a Bioware game. A silent PC did not bother me when we had silent NPCs and no cinematic direction; there you could easily be the centre of a scene via choosing dialogue.

Starting with KoTOR, though, the silent PC became the background object people talked about. Consider the final scenes in KoTOR or DA:O - there, our hero was put aside to the background as your NPC character became the dramatic setpiece in the final scene. This really bothered me, especially since the games aways have your character as the unequivocal leader.

People talked about "being" your character - but I feel that much more with a voiced PC. I suppose I look at RPing like method acting; I am given somebackground scripted that describes what the character is, and then I proceed to make the character my own. The NPC puppet just does not work for me.

The thing with me, also, is that I can't read with tone. I don't understand how people do, and say each of ther PC has a different tone. My reading tone is the same for everything I do, whether it's reading a book, reading a character's line, or reading a grocery list.

[philbo1965uk]

DarthCaine wrote...

You need to let go of the past and the nostalgia. These are modern times, it's like saying that all modern adventure games should be freakin text adventures.  Or that all modern movies should be black and white with no sound. cRPGs shouldn't be the same as 20 years ago, everything should evolve.

My point isn't that movies are more immersive that books. It's that games SHOULDN'T be books (ANY game). It's not the same level of immersion reading a book and staring into a monitor with crappy pixels and lots of text.

You "old gamers" stuck in the past may tolerate such stuff, but not the modern gamer.

Hmmm..I don't think many people would complain that a VA for other characters ruins the game experience.I would want to say that it enhances it because it gives them a unique personality.

Claudia Black made Morrigan a strong and appealing character.

I only object to a voiced protaganist.

Your other point I respect though don't subscribe to...a book will always be more immersive than a film.As no film could ever match your  imagination...books are personal in that way.

I have read over 700 books that I thoroughly enjoyed...finding a film that matches all our expectations is notoriously difficult.Which is why some are described as classics and the remainder okay run of the mill.

Please only speak for yourself ...it's nonsensical anyway as we are all modern gamers.

Now if you said casual gamer...then I could appreciate your comments as one of them, all that much better.

As they are in the main fictitious entities purely invented to explain away changes of direction as imaginary 'listening to feedback' from the communities for the devs.

For instance ..I frequent many forums, have done for well over two decades and have yet to read requests that a game be dumbed down, shorten both length and longevity and appeals for a console port over ! 

It appears these Casual gamers have a lot to answer for and are to the detriment of our gaming experience...who are they ?  Because unless they have a little red phone direct to game developers , I'd like to know how they are providing this feedback .

The industry has a philosophy of fear...always change !   as change even for change sake means upwards....standing still can only mean you go down,get left behind. It isn't true of course but thats the perception.

 

[ErichHartmann]

philbo1965uk wrote...


Please only speak for yourself ...
 

Good, remember that every time you post long rants. 

[Dave of Canada]

philbo1965uk wrote...

The industry has a philosophy of fear...always change !   as change even for change sake means upwards....standing still can only mean you go down,get left behind. It isn't true of course but thats the perception.

It IS true. Japanese game developers are dying because they refuse to change, they refuse to "get with the times".

People on these forums firmly believe that Baldur's Gate 2 is the most amazing thing ever, however the sales of Baldur's Gate 2 wouldn't be enough to keep Bioware going in today's world. You can only cater to a niche audience for so long before you need to change things.

Nostalgia can only get one so far before it becomes stale and bland.

Modifié par Dave of Canada, 20 novembre 2010 - 04:38 .

[philbo1965uk]

Saibh wrote...

Right, well. I don't think of myself as the Warden. I roleplay. A character. Who is not me. I don't romance Alistair. Howe didn't kill my family. My character does. I think there are merits to both sides--voiced and silent. For this story, I think a voiced character makes sense. Just as Shepard makes sense as a voice protagonist.

I  respect your opinion and can  sympathise with your distress.

[Ziggeh]

philbo1965uk wrote...
Your other point I respect though don't subscribe to...a book will always be more immersive than a film.As no film could ever match your  imagination...books are personal in that way.

As someone said earlier, "immersion" isn't a defined objective quality, it's purely subjective and involves approach. I could give you some crap about apollonian/dionysian areas of the brain when engaging with a medium that's both visual and literary, but in reality the thing you find most immersive is entirely down to you and your experiences with various media.

[ScotGaymer]

Personally I dont like that a PC is voiced.



I never did. At least not when its a PC that you have SO much control over as you do in DA and ME.



Shepard sounds a certain way; and I always feel I have to match the face to the voice. Ive seen so many clips online of Shepard and thought "good god he/she looks nothing like he/she sounds" and it is immersion breaking.

I LIKED that DAO didnt have a voiced protagonist - the PC can still "take part" in the conversation/cut scenes even if he/she is unvoiced.



With Hawke I imagine I will feel restricted to how he/she can look to match his/her voice.



The only problem I had with DAO wasnt the fact that the PC was unvoiced (and I imagine many will agree with me) it was the fact that the PC often stood there like a total mental retard with a total blank or "no duh" expression on his/her face when he/she was supposed to be interacting with people.

Even in cut scenes the expression was blank more often than not.



But in typical Bioware fashion their response this problem was to voice the character rather than just give him/her facial expressions to match what he/she is supposedly saying.

Bioware usually grossly overreacts to criticism.



ME people said the inventory system was too complicated, too footery, and redundant. So instead of streamlining it like the majority of people wanted they instead stripped it out entirely. Instead of fixing the terrain generator to create more sensible worlds to visit (when people complained about how unrealistic they were and how boring the mako was) they stripped out the Mako component of the game completely.



And once again Bioware as overreacted to the criticism about the blank bland face that the Warden always wore.



I dont mind voiced PC's if they are already predefined like Geralt of Rivia in The Witcher. But when you have a character like Hawke or Shepard where race, face, background etc are all not defined or open to player choice to a degree then having ONE voice for males and ONE voice for females doesnt really make sense.

It makes me feel like the game was done on the cheap.



It wont stop me buying DA2. I am certain it will be a good game. Its just my feelings on it.