885 réponses à ce sujet

[upsettingshorts]

philbo1965uk wrote...

Hmmm..I don't think many people would complain that a VA for other characters ruins the game experience.I would want to say that it enhances it because it gives them a unique personality.

Claudia Black made Morrigan a strong and appealing character.

I only object to a voiced protaganist.

I've complained all the time about the silent protagonist.  The inconsistency between how the NPCs and the PCs communicate personally kills my immersion because of the feeling In Exile described, and to me it turns conversations with NPCs into talking head theater where I am simply picking options then listening as the NPC talks at me.

philbo1965uk wrote...

Please only speak for yourself ...it's nonsensical anyway as we are all modern gamers.

Maybe you should keep that in mind?

FitScotGaymer wrote...

ME people said the inventory system was too complicated.

Who are these people and do they have something to catch the drool under their gamepad?

FitScotGaymer wrote...

and redundant.

Well, that was definitely true.

FitScotGaymer wrote...
So instead of streamlining it like the majority of people wanted they instead stripped it out entirely.

It's not as if this didn't have positive effects, too.  "Stripped it out" implies that nothing was gained.  This is false.  Weapons in Mass Effect 2 each have unique performance characteristics.  Every weapon was the same in ME1, their differences simply being a case of better vs. worse.  Every assault rifle was fully automatic, every pistol fired at the same rate, etc.  ME1 presented the illusion of choice in terms of weapons, ME2 presents actual choice. 

That being said, there's no disputing that companion armor was lost in ME2.  

Modifié par Upsettingshorts, 20 novembre 2010 - 04:51 .

[Ziggeh]

FitScotGaymer wrote...

But in typical Bioware fashion their response this problem was to voice the character rather than just give him/her facial expressions to match what he/she is supposedly saying.

Now that would be wierd.

Silently gurning during what should be emotionally charged moments.

[Maconbar]

philbo1965uk wrote...

DarthCaine wrote...

You need to let go of the past and the nostalgia. These are modern times, it's like saying that all modern adventure games should be freakin text adventures.  Or that all modern movies should be black and white with no sound. cRPGs shouldn't be the same as 20 years ago, everything should evolve.

My point isn't that movies are more immersive that books. It's that games SHOULDN'T be books (ANY game). It's not the same level of immersion reading a book and staring into a monitor with crappy pixels and lots of text.

You "old gamers" stuck in the past may tolerate such stuff, but not the modern gamer.

Hmmm..I don't think many people would complain that a VA for other characters ruins the game experience.I would want to say that it enhances it because it gives them a unique personality.

Claudia Black made Morrigan a strong and appealing character.

I only object to a voiced protaganist.

Your other point I respect though don't subscribe to...a book will always be more immersive than a film.As no film could ever match your  imagination...books are personal in that way.

I have read over 700 books that I thoroughly enjoyed...finding a film that matches all our expectations is notoriously difficult.Which is why some are described as classics and the remainder okay run of the mill.

Please only speak for yourself ...it's nonsensical anyway as we are all modern gamers.

Now if you said casual gamer...then I could appreciate your comments as one of them, all that much better.

As they are in the main fictitious entities purely invented to explain away changes of direction as imaginary 'listening to feedback' from the communities for the devs.

For instance ..I frequent many forums, have done for well over two decades and have yet to read requests that a game be dumbed down, shorten both length and longevity and appeals for a console port over ! 

It appears these Casual gamers have a lot to answer for and are to the detriment of our gaming experience...who are they ?  Because unless they have a little red phone direct to game developers , I'd like to know how they are providing this feedback .

The industry has a philosophy of fear...always change !   as change even for change sake means upwards....standing still can only mean you go down,get left behind. It isn't true of course but thats the perception.

 

I think that immersion means different things to different people. I spend much more time reading books than I do watching movies. In many ways I enjoy books more than movies but I am not sure that I enjoy books more than movies because they are more immersive.

For example I find the film version of The Shining to be more immersive than the book version of it. I think the film version is more immersive because I am seeing and hearing the story. I know that I become more frightened, more engaged. I am not necessarily claiming the the movie is inherently better.

Using another example. I think that reading about a football game is less immersive than watching it on TV, which is less immersive than watching it in the stadium. Playing it would provide the highest level of immersion.

[Ziggeh]

Upsettingshorts wrote...

That being said, there's no disputing that companion armor was lost in ME2. 

It didn't really achieve much to begin with though. You got to change their colour and stuff, but it was hard to judge the effect it was having as you were never in control of them. I would call it choice for choices sake, and the system used to deliver that was unwieldy.

[upsettingshorts]

ziggehunderslash wrote...
It didn't really achieve much to begin with though. You got to change their colour and stuff, but it was hard to judge the effect it was having as you were never in control of them. I would call it choice for choices sake, and the system used to deliver that was unwieldy.

Yeah, I know there are arguments to be made about ME1 vs. ME2's armor system, but I wouldn't be the one making them.  I'll argue that the ME2 weapons and thus weapon inventory was superior to ME1's all day though.

Where ME2 failed wasn't in the inventory, but the GUI.  It didn't get across the idea that each weapon had unique performance characteristics to those who might not have found the concept intuitive.  The paragraph description was as limited as it was kind of misleading.

Modifié par Upsettingshorts, 20 novembre 2010 - 04:59 .

[ScotGaymer]

Upsettingshorts wrote...

It's not as if this didn't have positive effects, too.  "Stripped it out" implies that nothing was gained.  This is false.  Weapons in Mass Effect 2 each have unique performance characteristics.  Every weapon was the same in ME1, their differences simply being a case of better vs. worse.  Every assault rifle was fully automatic, every pistol fired at the same rate, etc.  ME1 presented the illusion of choice in terms of weapons, ME2 presents actual choice. 

That being said, there's no disputing that companion armor was lost in ME2.  

I never said that nothing was gained.

My point was that Biowares "response" to the criticism was a bit of an overreaction; completely replacing a system that wasnt broken with something else.
The inventory and weapon and armour system in ME1 wasnt bad. There was just too much stuff. You ended up with a load of pointess crap in your inventory. All that was required was to reduce the sheer amount of stuff and to allow for greater diversity.

The whole new system was unnecessary IMO. And frankly its a little bland and uninteresting; and more than a little generic. "Upgrade Adept 1. Upgrade Shotgun 2" Blah Blah Blah. Boring and repetitve and a little annoying actually. I preferred the redundant inventory system.

[upsettingshorts]

The upgrade system at the research station isn't what I was referring to. I was referring to the fact the Revenant performs widly differently than the Vindicator which in turn is radically different than the Mattock. The upgrade system works "across the board" to improve weapons and armor of a certain type and thus feels too hands off to me.

But the weapon inventory is much better. It actually delivered greater diversity by sacrificing the sheer amount of stuff.

In ME1, even if you had no issues sorting through the massive inventory of junk - there was only ever one choice:  The best item.

Edit: Anyway, it's an off topic tangent.  Will respond further in PMs if necessary.

Modifié par Upsettingshorts, 20 novembre 2010 - 05:12 .

[In Exile]

@ PC Tone

Here is another thing to keep in mind (at least for me) when it comes to the tone of the PC. Even though I cannot read with tone (so when I read there is no experience of tone like there is when I hear it) I am obviously a functional human being and can infer what was said with what tone.

Well, I think one point at issue between us is whether a silent PC has a fixed tone or not. I would argue that, despite the protests of the silent PC crowd, the PC VO has each line written with a specific tone in mind. It has to, because the writer then has to write a coherent NPC reply, and this involves recognizing the tone of what was said.

Of course, with as silent PC we can go down the NPCs are incapable of speak route and say they always misunderstand in cases where there is a conflict between the player tone and the interaction, but IMO that's a cop-out based on the design limitation. To me, the tone is always there and readily apparent.

So this is another issue why I like PC VO - it doesn't take anything away re: tone, because the tone was always there. Now I just get to hear it, plus have all these design elements that I like added in.

Upsettingshorts wrote...

Yeah, I know there are arguments to be made about ME1 vs. ME2's armor system, but I wouldn't be the one making them.  I'll argue that the ME2 weapons and thus weapon inventory was superior to ME1's all day though.

Where ME2 failed wasn't in the inventory, but the GUI.  It didn't get across the idea that each weapon had unique performance characteristics to those who might not have found the concept intuitive. 

ME2 also failed at conveying the bonuses from research. That was what the linear progression of armour (seriously Onyx 1 and Onyx X were reskins were one had better #s) was replaced with. If you play a no-research ME2 game, you will quickly find that you are very underpowered.

Just like using starter equipment for the whole game in ME1. Both games are "loot" driven so to speak, but ME2 hid the loot under the research screen, and people just never appreciated the statistical signifinance. DA2, if it "hides" some of the RPG elements under the hood, will be unfairly criticized for this too.

[Ryzaki]

I hate Voiced PCs. I both Hale and Meer are horrible to me and but Meer was slightly better so I grit my teeth and played a dude Shep. At least in ME2 he improved but gah. I tried to play a femshep and good god was the voice acting horrendous.

I really don't think it's worth the trade-off. Nothing, nothing makes me feel apart from the game like a voiced PC. I go from the player to a mere spectator. The way they speak, their inflections are usually nothing like  howI imagined my character speaking.

That said if BW wants to do this fine. I'll see if DA2 is any better than ME and if it's not I'll play something else. No big deal.

Modifié par Ryzaki, 20 novembre 2010 - 05:08 .

[ScotGaymer]

Ryzaki wrote...

I hate Voiced PCs. I both Hale and Meer are horrible to me and but Meer was slightly better so I grit my teeth and played a dude Shep. At least in ME2 he improved but gah. I tried to play a femshep and good god was the voice acting horrendous.

I really don't think it's worth the trade-off. Nothing, nothing makes me feel apart from the game like a voiced PC. I go from the player to a mere spectator. The way they speak, their inflections are usually nothing like  howI imagined my character speaking.

That said if BW wants to do this fine. I'll see if DA2 is any better than ME and if it's not I'll play something else. No big deal.

I actually dont agree.

I think that Meer was better in ME1 than Hale but Hale was by far the better in ME2. Meer was so wooden and stilted in ME2 it hurt to listen to. And I play dude Shep.

[upsettingshorts]

FitScotGaymer wrote...
I actually dont agree.

I think that Meer was better in ME1 than Hale but Hale was by far the better in ME2. Meer was so wooden and stilted in ME2 it hurt to listen to. And I play dude Shep.

I'm the opposite.  Meer isn't wooden or stilted, he's believably understated so that Renegade lines and Paragon lines both sound like they're coming from the same person.  Hale was similar in Mass Effect 1, but in Mass Effect 2 she turns FemShep into a ham who consistently oversells the tone and overacts. The best example of Jennifer Hale taking the delivery way too far is any discussion she has with Jacob in the armory, but it's pretty consistent.

Meer's Shepard strikes me as someone who is comfortable in their own skin and doesn't feel the need to overstate his intentions or make a spectacle of himself.  Hale is the star of her own movie, and while that might literally be true, it takes me out of the moment.

Renegade Meer: "I don't have time for your crap"
Renegade Hale: "I WILL TEAR YOUR THROAT OUT"
Paragon Meer: "It's cool bro, let me help."
Paragon Hale: "THIS IS TERRIBLE, LET ME HUG YOU"

Modifié par Upsettingshorts, 20 novembre 2010 - 05:17 .

[mellifera]

I loved Hale in both games, but listening to Meer speak for any extended period of time made me break out in hives. I just felt like 'Damn, did they replace Shepard with Microsoft Sam when I wasn't looking?'



I like voiced protagonists in general, though.

[Ryzaki]

FitScotGaymer wrote...


I actually dont agree.

I think that Meer was better in ME1 than Hale but Hale was by far the better in ME2. Meer was so wooden and stilted in ME2 it hurt to listen to. And I play dude Shep.

Eh frankly I found they both sucked to be completely honest but Hale sounded like she was in constant **** mode. She sounded pissed off for no particular reason.

Meer's Shepard strikes me as someone who is comfortable in their own
skin and doesn't feel the need to overstate his intentions or make a
spectacle of himself.  Hale is the star of her own movie, and while that
might literally be true, it takes me out of the moment.

Renegade Meer: "I don't have time for your crap"
Renegade Hale: "I WILL TEAR YOUR THROAT OUT"
Paragon Meer: "It's cool bro, let me help."
Paragon Hale: "THIS IS TERRIBLE, LET ME HUG YOU"

This...good god this.

[In Exile]

Upsettingshorts wrote...

I'm the opposite.  Meer isn't wooden or stilted, he's believably understated so that Renegade lines and Paragon lines both sound like they're coming from the same person.  Hale was similar in Mass Effect 1, but in Mass Effect 2 she turns FemShep into a ham who consistently oversells the tone and overacts. The best example of Jennifer Hale taking the delivery way too far is any discussion she has with Jacob in the armory, but it's pretty consistent.

Meer's Shepard strikes me as someone who is comfortable in their own skin and doesn't feel the need to overstate his intentions or make a spectacle of himself.  Hale is the star of her own movie, and while that might literally be true, it takes me out of the moment.

Renegade Meer: "I don't have time for your crap"
Renegade Hale: "I WILL TEAR YOUR THROAT OUT"
Paragon Meer: "It's cool bro, let me help."
Paragon Hale: "THIS IS TERRIBLE, LET ME HUG YOU"

I think Meer does not get enough credit for appreacting that as a PC-VO, he has to be consistent with a lot of possible character archetypes and beliefs, so he tries to sound as consistent as possible across all his lines. He just does not deviate from baseline alot, which ironically is how I would be a silent PC is envisioned when the dialogue is being written.

The problems with VO in ME1 where with the dialogue itself, where the writers just railroaded you into crazy. Like the first scene with the Council, where I felt they had a good point (Shepard's crazy dreams are totally not evidence), but instead of being allowed to say "cool, you guys are right, brb with no crazy", Shepard just starts to froth at the mouth and insult the Council.

[Ziggeh]

Upsettingshorts wrote...

FitScotGaymer wrote...
I actually dont agree.

I think that Meer was better in ME1 than Hale but Hale was by far the better in ME2. Meer was so wooden and stilted in ME2 it hurt to listen to. And I play dude Shep.

I'm the opposite.  Meer isn't wooden or stilted, he's believably understated so that Renegade lines and Paragon lines both sound like they're coming from the same person.  Hale was similar in Mass Effect 1, but in Mass Effect 2 she turns FemShep into a ham who consistently oversells the tone and overacts. The best example of Jennifer Hale taking the delivery way too far is any discussion she has with Jacob in the armory, but it's pretty consistent.

Meer's Shepard strikes me as someone who is comfortable in their own skin and doesn't feel the need to overstate his intentions or make a spectacle of himself.  Hale is the star of her own movie, and while that might literally be true, it takes me out of the moment.

Renegade Meer: "I don't have time for your crap"
Renegade Hale: "I WILL TEAR YOUR THROAT OUT"
Paragon Meer: "It's cool bro, let me help."
Paragon Hale: "THIS IS TERRIBLE, LET ME HUG YOU"

It's funny, I pretty much agree with you, but it's exactly why I prefer Hale's performance. I found subtlety didn't become the world of mass effect. He made for a much better renegade because his almost laid back attitude was hilarious, but when your scenery is the remains of an impossibly ancient artificial species, I say you chew it for all it's worth.

[ScotGaymer]

To be entirely honest I dont particularily like the whole voiced PC thing as I already said. I dont think either of them are fantastic.



But there are many times where I felt that MaleShep should have reacted with more feeling; like when you meet Tali again. His tone is so inappropriate to the moment.

Hale is like "Tali! So good to see you *huggle*" in her tone. Meer is like "Oh Hi Tali. (Do I really need to put up with this b*tch again?)". Which I felt was kinda like it wasnt right; he was supposed to care about her, have respect for her and he talks to her like shes an idiot I felt.



It happens so many times through the game. ManShep seems to react to things in a sort of "pfft whatever. I dont really care." way which is fine for Renegade Shep, but I play Paragon most of the time so it felt wrong. Hale might overact a bit (or a lot depending on your perspect) but at least she sounds like shes into the character, that her Shepard actually gives a toss.

[Ryzaki]

FitScotGaymer wrote...

To be entirely honest I dont particularily like the whole voiced PC thing as I already said. I dont think either of them are fantastic.

But there are many times where I felt that MaleShep should have reacted with more feeling; like when you meet Tali again. His tone is so inappropriate to the moment.
Hale is like "Tali! So good to see you *huggle*" in her tone. Meer is like "Oh Hi Tali. (Do I really need to put up with this b*tch again?)". Which I felt was kinda like it wasnt right; he was supposed to care about her, have respect for her and he talks to her like shes an idiot I felt.

It happens so many times through the game. ManShep seems to react to things in a sort of "pfft whatever. I dont really care." way which is fine for Renegade Shep, but I play Paragon most of the time so it felt wrong. Hale might overact a bit (or a lot depending on your perspect) but at least she sounds like shes into the character, that her Shepard actually gives a toss.

See that's the thng. I like playing the Stoic so much of Meer's "Oh hi." lines are perfect. Where's Hale's "OMG HI!" is cringeworthy.

[upsettingshorts]

In Exile wrote...

I think Meer does not get enough credit for appreacting that as a PC-VO, he has to be consistent with a lot of possible character archetypes and beliefs, so he tries to sound as consistent as possible across all his lines. He just does not deviate from baseline alot, which ironically is how I would be a silent PC is envisioned when the dialogue is being written.

I don't really expect he ever will.  He gets so much sh*t, here and on the internet in general - for not being Jennifer Hale.  Which is why I pull out the "Hale overacts" thing whenever it's appropriate.  It's almost white knighting at this point.  Maybe someday Mark Meer will do my voicemail message or something.

"This is (name removed's) cel phone, and you're his favorite caller in the world.  Leave a message after the tone."

[Sidney]

In Exile wrote...

ME2 also failed at conveying the bonuses from research. That was what the linear progression of armour (seriously Onyx 1 and Onyx X were reskins were one had better #s) was replaced with. If you play a no-research ME2 game, you will quickly find that you are very underpowered.

Just like using starter equipment for the whole game in ME1. Both games are "loot" driven so to speak, but ME2 hid the loot under the research screen, and people just never appreciated the statistical signifinance. DA2, if it "hides" some of the RPG elements under the hood, will be unfairly criticized for this too.

Ok, so I wasn't the only one who got this part. listening to all the "no loot" crowd I thought the word was taking crazy pills.

[In Exile]

FitScotGaymer wrote...
It happens so many times through the game. ManShep seems to react to things in a sort of "pfft whatever. I dont really care." way which is fine for Renegade Shep, but I play Paragon most of the time so it felt wrong. Hale might overact a bit (or a lot depending on your perspect) but at least she sounds like shes into the character, that her Shepard actually gives a toss.

I don't think that's a fair characterization. Maybe because I come off that way in RL a lot, but I'm not actually not-caring - I just don't do over the top expression well. To me, it always seems forced. So saying "Hey, Tali." seems much more reasonable to me than "OMG! Tali *Hug!* It's been so long!".

[ScotGaymer]

Personally I think the mistake was only having one VA for each.



It woulda been great if Meer simply voiced RenegadeShepard. Renagade/Renagon Shepard would sound stoic, almost unfeeling, detatched, or laid back. Meer's take on that woulda been perfect in that situation.

But Paragon Shepard cares more (or if not caring more he expresses it more) and his tone should reflect that. When he meets Tali he doesnt sound pleased to see her, he sounds bored. When he is chewing out the Admiralty board going on about how he respects Tali he should sound utterly outraged and he doesnt he just sounds bored. It doesnt fit.



Same with Hale's take on Renegade FemShep. Her enthusiastic overacting doesnt fit Renegade/Renegon Shep.



I think it would have been better if 2/3 actors had voiced each shepard. Like choosing which "voice" ur character used in BG or DA.

But this wont happen unfortunately. For DA2 i meant.

[In Exile]

Upsettingshorts wrote...

I don't really expect he ever will.  He gets so much sh*t, here and on the internet in general - for not being Jennifer Hale.  Which is why I pull out the "Hale overacts" thing whenever it's appropriate.  It's almost white knighting at this point.  Maybe someday Mark Meer will do my voicemail message or something.

"This is (name removed's) cel phone, and you're his favorite caller in the world.  Leave a message after the tone."

I don't like it when actors aren't judged on the basis of their role. If the role is to be stoic, for example, saying that someone was unfeeling is a little misplaced.

I think Shepard's VO is judged like NPC VO is, and that's wrong. As the PC VO, the VA for Shepard has to deal with unique challenges and these need to be taken into account.

I agree with you that it seems that Hale went in with essentially three character concepts - neutral, hugsy and mean. Whereas Meer just tries to have his paragon/renegade lines be a varation of his neutral middle line.

He absolutely underacts, but I think that's the point.

[In Exile]

FitScotGaymer wrote...
But Paragon Shepard cares more (or if not caring more he expresses it more) and his tone should reflect that. When he meets Tali he doesnt sound pleased to see her, he sounds bored. When he is chewing out the Admiralty board going on about how he respects Tali he should sound utterly outraged and he doesnt he just sounds bored. It doesnt fit.

But Shepard does care - he teams up with Tali instead of dismissing her, after all. And he can offer for her to come with him, like old times. To me, that's caring. But I'm an action over words sort of guy.

I think it would have been better if 2/3 actors had voiced each shepard. Like choosing which "voice" ur character used in BG or DA.
But this wont happen unfortunately. For DA2 i meant.

In DA2 we have intent indicators. The whole point of that, I think, being that we can pick the appropriate tone for the situation too so that people feel like they have less of these problems.

So with the Tali situation, we'd get pleasant. sacrastic and mean, and that might cover some of the issues we're talking about.

[ScotGaymer]

In Exile wrote...

FitScotGaymer wrote...
It happens so many times through the game. ManShep seems to react to things in a sort of "pfft whatever. I dont really care." way which is fine for Renegade Shep, but I play Paragon most of the time so it felt wrong. Hale might overact a bit (or a lot depending on your perspect) but at least she sounds like shes into the character, that her Shepard actually gives a toss.

I don't think that's a fair characterization. Maybe because I come off that way in RL a lot, but I'm not actually not-caring - I just don't do over the top expression well. To me, it always seems forced. So saying "Hey, Tali." seems much more reasonable to me than "OMG! Tali *Hug!* It's been so long!".

See I am an understated person too. I dont do public displays of affection. i dont like people in my personal space. But it has nothing to do with how Meer just sounds bored or uncaring.

And he does.

Like I said in a Renegade Shep that sort of tone is just fine. Correct even. But as a Paragon or variation thereof it just doesnt fit. He shouldnt sound like he doesnt care. He should be a bit more expressive than what he is given the context of whats going on and what hes saying.