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Love Interest mechanics. *Contains heavy assumptions and speculation*


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#76
crimzontearz

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Maria Caliban wrote...

ziggehunderslash wrote...

Even though the distinction would only exist externally?


It doesn't exist only externally. A character is defined by the totality of their expression though a reader/player may experience that differently.

"Morrigan is a b*tch" is an external distinction while "Morrigan is a swamp-witch" is an internal one.

A character that identifies as straight around the opposite sex and gay around the same-sex has conflicting internal definitions unless we have reason to believe the character would lie or otherwise say these things.

Conflict in internal definition is not a horrible thing or unique to games. I can show you comics where Superman can't fly and Batman kills criminals without remorse. I once recall an Australian author talk about how she forgot that a character had lost his arm in book 2 and so in book 3 he returned with two arms (which he then lost in book 4 when she realized the problem.)

Heck, James Bond has been played by 8 different actors now and no one complains about the hero constantly changing his physical form.

What you're talking about is a very blatant type of contradiction that exists within the same work, couldn't be the result of authorial mistake, and doesn't seem to have much purpose.

In fact, it does nothing but undermine the illusion of character.

Xewaka wrote...

Maria Caliban wrote...

I would find it odd to come across the word 'lesbian' and 'straight' in a fantasy game.

Yet using "deviant", while probably more fitting to the setting, would case a huge uproar. Sometimes there has to be compromise.


'Huge uproar' meaning five people on the forums would create a 30 page thread while no one else cared.

Zevran himself admits that people often look down on him because of his relations with men but no one complained. Sten made a boldfaced sexist comment, but the vast majority of female players seemed to not resent him or BioWare for it.


not to split the hair in 4 but..........

James Bond is a single character, so is Batman, as time passes and people grow too old for the role they need to be replaced....I know I'm being picky about this one but I really meant to comment on your other statement

in a game like Dragon Age where you create your own hero down to the gender things are a little fuzzy in this department. See, let's say we are playing Resident Evil 2. You can play as Jill and as Leon in the SAME story. Let's say that in this particular residen evil you COULD romance Ada Wong, and, if you played as Leon she would say she is straight but if you played as Jill she would say she is a lesbian. in THAT instance I would give say you are right, The writers lost it a bit but in DAO things are different. Each time you play  you create a different continuity. In your first continuity Teryn Cousland had a boy called William who was a warrior and became a grey warden...in your second playthrough he had a girl named Brunhilde who was a rogue and became a grey warden....in the third it does not ewven matter because his child dies at the hands of Arl Howe  and the second daughter of Aeducan became a grey warden. Those are not even the same continuities anymore they are parallel stories in which several details change...one of those details might be, of course, Lelliana sexuality or preferred orientation changing conveniently in accordance to your warden's sex

just saying

#77
crimzontearz

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Ryzaki wrote...

crimzontearz wrote...

Ryzaki wrote...

Eh...competing for someone's affection doesn't interest me. If the person's interested in me they are and we're fine, if they're not they're not and I'm not going to squabble over someone's affection.


eh....I'm a (sometimes violently) possessive and territorial  guy....hence why I wanted to smack Zevran each time she made a pass at Lelliana


Eh. As long as Leliana doesn't reciprocate while I'm standing right there. (While my Warden says nothing *grumbes*) I could care less.


hehe and that's where we are different.....I like to drive the point across

#78
Ziggeh

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Maria Caliban wrote...
A character that identifies as straight around the opposite sex and gay around the same-sex has conflicting internal definitions unless we have reason to believe the character would lie or otherwise say these things.

I guess what I'm asking is whether people could see them as two different characters as opposed to one with different lines.

Maria Caliban wrote...
Heck, James Bond has been played by 8 different actors now and no one complains about the hero constantly changing his physical form.

I've always wondered if they had lined Moore up after Connery left, and used Lazenby as a sort of sacrifice to appease the audience. Make the change to Moore a relief afterwards.

#79
Xewaka

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Maria Caliban wrote...


Xewaka wrote...

Maria Caliban wrote...

I would find it odd to come across the word 'lesbian' and 'straight' in a fantasy game.

Yet using "deviant", while probably more fitting to the setting, would case a huge uproar. Sometimes there has to be compromise.


'Huge uproar' meaning five people on the forums would create a 30 page thread while no one else cared.


You underestimate the level of stupidness of those so-called "defense groups". Too bad the best example I can think of right now is discworld's "equal stature league".

#80
Ortaya Alevli

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ok go wrote...

i want to have sex buddies, just like irl.

I knew you must be getting all the chicks.

#81
Maria Caliban

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Ryzaki wrote...

crimzontearz wrote...

eh....I'm a (sometimes violently) possessive and territorial  guy....hence why I wanted to smack Zevran each time she made a pass at Lelliana

Eh. As long as Leliana doesn't reciprocate while I'm standing right there. (While my Warden says nothing *grumbes*) I could care less.


Eh. The PC chooses to harden Leliana and, given her past, it's not surprising that she might decide public elf sex while her boy/girlfriend watches is a perfectly fine thing.

Also, John Cleese has a message for you.

Modifié par Maria Caliban, 21 novembre 2010 - 12:56 .


#82
crimzontearz

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Maria Caliban wrote...

Ryzaki wrote...

crimzontearz wrote...

eh....I'm a (sometimes violently) possessive and territorial  guy....hence why I wanted to smack Zevran each time she made a pass at Lelliana

Eh. As long as Leliana doesn't reciprocate while I'm standing right there. (While my Warden says nothing *grumbes*) I could care less.


Eh. The PC chooses to harden Leliana and, given her past, it's not surprising that she might decide public elf sex while her boy/girlfriend watches is a perfectly fine thing.


hence why I never harden her

#83
ok go

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great this became sexuality thread.........




#84
Eveangaline

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crimzontearz wrote...
not to split the hair in 4 but..........

James Bond is a single character, so is Batman, as time passes and people grow too old for the role they need to be replaced....I know I'm being picky about this one but I really meant to comment on your other statement

in a game like Dragon Age where you create your own hero down to the gender things are a little fuzzy in this department. See, let's say we are playing Resident Evil 2. You can play as Jill and as Leon in the SAME story. Let's say that in this particular residen evil you COULD romance Ada Wong, and, if you played as Leon she would say she is straight but if you played as Jill she would say she is a lesbian. in THAT instance I would give say you are right, The writers lost it a bit but in DAO things are different. Each time you play  you create a different continuity. In your first continuity Teryn Cousland had a boy called William who was a warrior and became a grey warden...in your second playthrough he had a girl named Brunhilde who was a rogue and became a grey warden....in the third it does not ewven matter because his child dies at the hands of Arl Howe  and the second daughter of Aeducan became a grey warden. Those are not even the same continuities anymore they are parallel stories in which several details change...one of those details might be, of course, Lelliana sexuality or preferred orientation changing conveniently in accordance to your warden's sex

just saying


Woah, woah, I'm not sure if you could say batman is a single character. I mean, movie batman, cartoon batman (from all the many different cartoons), silver age batman, golden age batman, current comic batman. There is a plethora of batmen.

Oh what? I'm getting off topic? Ok sorry.

Anyway, I'd say if changing your characters sex changes the characters around you, then that's not a very good character. It could change their reactions to you, that's fine, but changing something like their sexuality, not so much.

#85
Ryzaki

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Maria Caliban wrote...


Eh. The PC chooses to harden Leliana and, given her past, it's not surprising that she might decide public elf sex while her boy/girlfriend watches is a perfectly fine thing.


I didn't say it about her but my Warden being a complete mute during the thing. The least I could've gotten was an interjection! 

Paritcularly one that asks just how big elves are rumored to be anyways. :whistle:

#86
crimzontearz

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Eveangaline wrote...

crimzontearz wrote...
not to split the hair in 4 but..........

James Bond is a single character, so is Batman, as time passes and people grow too old for the role they need to be replaced....I know I'm being picky about this one but I really meant to comment on your other statement

in a game like Dragon Age where you create your own hero down to the gender things are a little fuzzy in this department. See, let's say we are playing Resident Evil 2. You can play as Jill and as Leon in the SAME story. Let's say that in this particular residen evil you COULD romance Ada Wong, and, if you played as Leon she would say she is straight but if you played as Jill she would say she is a lesbian. in THAT instance I would give say you are right, The writers lost it a bit but in DAO things are different. Each time you play  you create a different continuity. In your first continuity Teryn Cousland had a boy called William who was a warrior and became a grey warden...in your second playthrough he had a girl named Brunhilde who was a rogue and became a grey warden....in the third it does not ewven matter because his child dies at the hands of Arl Howe  and the second daughter of Aeducan became a grey warden. Those are not even the same continuities anymore they are parallel stories in which several details change...one of those details might be, of course, Lelliana sexuality or preferred orientation changing conveniently in accordance to your warden's sex

just saying


Woah, woah, I'm not sure if you could say batman is a single character. I mean, movie batman, cartoon batman (from all the many different cartoons), silver age batman, golden age batman, current comic batman. There is a plethora of batmen.

Oh what? I'm getting off topic? Ok sorry.

Anyway, I'd say if changing your characters sex changes the characters around you, then that's not a very good character. It could change their reactions to you, that's fine, but changing something like their sexuality, not so much.


ok one chartacter per continuity and fictional universe......

and you are not JUST changing their sex you are changing other events around you.

If you play a cousland then the Aeducan middle child might be dead in the Deep Roads

if you play as the Exiled aeducan then the Teryn son/daughter died in the wake of Howe's betrayal

#87
Ortaya Alevli

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crimzontearz wrote...

and you are not JUST changing their sex you are changing other events around you.

If you play a cousland then the Aeducan middle child might be dead in the Deep Roads

if you play as the Exiled aeducan then the Teryn son/daughter died in the wake of Howe's betrayal

That's *events* being changed, not the characters. Rendon and Bhelen are still the same scheming bastards, for instance.

#88
ok go

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who here hopes Aveline isn't the other LI, she has some huge arms and prolly going to have a huge case of carth syndrome.

#89
Maria Caliban

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Ryzaki wrote...

I didn't say it about her but my Warden being a complete mute during the thing. The least I could've gotten was an interjection! 

Paritcularly one that asks just how big elves are rumored to be anyways. :whistle:


That seemed out of character for her. I mean, Leliana's never had sex with an elf? Never?

#90
Ryzaki

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Maria Caliban wrote...

That seemed out of character for her. I mean, Leliana's never had sex with an elf? Never?


Why would she have needed to? Weren't they servants in Orlais? 

#91
Ortaya Alevli

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Ryzaki wrote...

Maria Caliban wrote...

That seemed out of character for her. I mean, Leliana's never had sex with an elf? Never?


Why would she have needed to? Weren't they servants in Orlais? 

Pretty much the same social class as Leliana's before she took to barding around, I'd say.

#92
crimzontearz

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Ortaya Alevli wrote...

crimzontearz wrote...

and you are not JUST changing their sex you are changing other events around you.

If you play a cousland then the Aeducan middle child might be dead in the Deep Roads

if you play as the Exiled aeducan then the Teryn son/daughter died in the wake of Howe's betrayal

That's *events* being changed, not the characters. Rendon and Bhelen are still the same scheming bastards, for instance.



yeah well you can change their whole SEX seen as the default 2nd child of Aeducan is a man

#93
Ziggeh

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Ortaya Alevli wrote...
That's *events* being changed, not the characters. Rendon and Bhelen are still the same scheming bastards, for instance.

Indeed, but does the world need to be the same in each playthrough?

I'm not suggesting this would be a good thing for them to do or anything, I'm just interested in perspectives.

#94
Ortaya Alevli

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ziggehunderslash wrote...

Ortaya Alevli wrote...
That's *events* being changed, not the characters. Rendon and Bhelen are still the same scheming bastards, for instance.

Indeed, but does the world need to be the same in each playthrough?

I'm not suggesting this would be a good thing for them to do or anything, I'm just interested in perspectives.

It doesn't need to be, actually. It's my own viewpoint. I'm a sucker for consistency.

#95
crimzontearz

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ziggehunderslash wrote...

Ortaya Alevli wrote...
That's *events* being changed, not the characters. Rendon and Bhelen are still the same scheming bastards, for instance.

Indeed, but does the world need to be the same in each playthrough?

I'm not suggesting this would be a good thing for them to do or anything, I'm just interested in perspectives.


hey in Lelliana's song you can imply she does not even like Marjolene let alone touch her or love her....just saying

#96
Ryzaki

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Ortaya Alevli wrote...

Ryzaki wrote...

Maria Caliban wrote...

That seemed out of character for her. I mean, Leliana's never had sex with an elf? Never?


Why would she have needed to? Weren't they servants in Orlais? 

Pretty much the same social class as Leliana's before she took to barding around, I'd say.


Not really by virtue of being elves they're already a lower class than her.

#97
Ortaya Alevli

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Ryzaki wrote...

Not really by virtue of being elves they're already a lower class than her.

I'd assumed things were different in Orlais. Perhaps a wrong assumption on my part.

#98
crimzontearz

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Ortaya Alevli wrote...

ziggehunderslash wrote...

Ortaya Alevli wrote...
That's *events* being changed, not the characters. Rendon and Bhelen are still the same scheming bastards, for instance.

Indeed, but does the world need to be the same in each playthrough?

I'm not suggesting this would be a good thing for them to do or anything, I'm just interested in perspectives.

It doesn't need to be, actually. It's my own viewpoint. I'm a sucker for consistency.


isn't it an inconsistency that the sex and status of some individuals change depending on who you choose to play as?

#99
Ortaya Alevli

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crimzontearz wrote...

isn't it an inconsistency that the sex and status of some individuals change depending on who you choose to play as?

Give me an example, if you please. Your statement was a little ambiguous to me.

#100
Maria Caliban

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Ryzaki wrote...

Maria Caliban wrote...

That seemed out of character for her. I mean, Leliana's never had sex with an elf? Never?

Why would she have needed to? Weren't they servants in Orlais? 


Off the top of my head?

For fun. For practice. To satisfy one's curiosity. Because they were the servant to someone important. Because she was serving tea in a brothel and they came in for a sip.