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[crimzontearz]

Ortaya Alevli wrote...

crimzontearz wrote...

isn't it an inconsistency that the sex and status of some individuals change depending on who you choose to play as?

Give me an example, if you please. Your statement was a little ambiguous to me.

ok......in playthrough #1 Teyrn Cousland has a daughter who survives the betrayal of the Howes because Duncan happened to be there, in the same playthrough the second child of Aeducan is male and was exiled dying afterward in the deep roads

in playthrough #2 Teryn Cousland has a default son and he dies that fateful night because Duncan happens to be in Orzammar saving Aeducan's second child who is now a girl... 

[ok go]

Why are we talking about Leliana?

[Ryzaki]

Maria Caliban wrote...

Ryzaki wrote...

Maria Caliban wrote...

That seemed out of character for her. I mean, Leliana's never had sex with an elf? Never?

Why would she have needed to? Weren't they servants in Orlais? 

Off the top of my head?

For fun. For practice. To satisfy one's curiosity. Because they were the servant to someone important. Because she was serving tea in a brothel and they came in for a sip.

Eh. I don't see her doing it for any of those reasons except maybe the curiosty one when there were humans around.

As for the servants. Why bother wiht the servant when you can go straight to the source? 

So yes I see it as quite believeable that she didn't sleep with an elf until the Warden.

[Leonia]

I'm not sure that elven servants are all that different than human servants in terms of status, but I could very well be wrong about that. But ya'll are really focusing in on that finer point of the argument. Regardless if she had the opportunity or not to sleep with an elf, I don't think Leliana would make crude jokes or off-handed comments about the size of their anatomy.

[crimzontearz]

ok go wrote...

Why are we talking about Leliana?

she was used as an example

[Ortaya Alevli]

crimzontearz wrote...

Ortaya Alevli wrote...

crimzontearz wrote...

isn't it an inconsistency that the sex and status of some individuals change depending on who you choose to play as?

Give me an example, if you please. Your statement was a little ambiguous to me.

ok......in playthrough #1 Teyrn Cousland has a daughter who survives the betrayal of the Howes because Duncan happened to be there, in the same playthrough the second child of Aeducan is male and was exiled dying afterward in the deep roads

in playthrough #2 Teryn Cousland has a default son and he dies that fateful night because Duncan happens to be in Orzammar saving Aeducan's second child who is now a girl... 

These changes are the sort you the player are inducing. They have to be made. Blanks have to be filled. Not quite similar to changing characters and personalities. I wouldn't call any of those an inconsistency.

[Leonia]

crimzontearz wrote...

Ortaya Alevli wrote...

crimzontearz wrote...

isn't it an inconsistency that the sex and status of some individuals change depending on who you choose to play as?

Give me an example, if you please. Your statement was a little ambiguous to me.

ok......in playthrough #1 Teyrn Cousland has a daughter who survives the betrayal of the Howes because Duncan happened to be there, in the same playthrough the second child of Aeducan is male and was exiled dying afterward in the deep roads

in playthrough #2 Teryn Cousland has a default son and he dies that fateful night because Duncan happens to be in Orzammar saving Aeducan's second child who is now a girl... 

I was unaware that there was a "canon" gender for the younger Cousland/middle Aeducan child but I'd be happily proven wrong if you can site a source that says there is. It is canon that if you choose a non-Cousland Origin that the younger Cousland dies or if you choose a non-Aeducan that the second child dies (or is never heard from again at least after their exile). I'm not so sold on theire being gender canon with either of those and even if there were, so what? It doesn't change anything really.

I guess we could sort of guess at the "order" that Duncan is involved in the Origins but it's not an exact science, how do we know when he goes to Orzammar and when he goes to the Brecilian forest and when he goes to Highever (I assume he starts in Highever). And what does any of that really have to do with gender?

Modifié par leonia42, 21 novembre 2010 - 01:27 .

[Ryzaki]

leonia42 wrote...

I'm not sure that elven servants are all that different than human servants in terms of status, but I could very well be wrong about that. But ya'll are really focusing in on that finer point of the argument. Regardless if she had the opportunity or not to sleep with an elf, I don't think Leliana would make crude jokes or off-handed comments about the size of their anatomy.

I'm pretty sure they are. Elves on docks and the like if you ask around in the CE origin were always given the worst and hardest jobs along with the worst pay. They were considered beneath humans in geneal.

Modifié par Ryzaki, 21 novembre 2010 - 01:25 .

[Ortaya Alevli]

Leliana talks a lot about the well-being of elven servants in Orlais. Leliana also talks about how she lived as sort of a nurse child in Orlais. Zevran is a good indicator of Fereldan views on elves not being accepted worldwide. And...if your Warden is romancing Zevran, you can listen to an amusing piece of banter between Leliana and Alistair.

Those were my clues.

[ok go]

shepard_lives wrote...

Attention: if you want to discuss the matter presented below, please be willing to bear with me and momentarily accept as "right" some of the things I state. I wouldn't want pointless contestation to derail the thread.

In DA:O, (heterosexual) love interests for each sex were, so to speak, "opposed" following a certain mechanic, which my fellow Tropers might have recognized as "Betty and Veronica".
Female Wardens could choose between Alistair and Zevran. Ali and Zev were, respectively, the "sweet" and "spicy" option. One is nice and a little awkward, while the other is more experienced and, so to speak, smoother- I know he sort of loses his cool at a certain point in the romance, but still.

Males could choose between Leliana and Morrigan. The two were respectively the "hot" and "cold" option. One is passionate and wants to form a strong, long-lasting bond while the other wants a more friends-with-benefits approach (which fails spectacularly if you pursue the full romance path, but that is not the point).

Now, the only LI we know of in Dragon Age II is Isabela. Let's assume that in the sequel Bioware will use more or less the same mechanic I illustrated above.
So far, I'm inclined to believe Isabela fits the mold for a "spicy" romance option: she's experienced, as many Wardens know (wink wink nudge nudge) and I'm pretty sure her approach to a relationship with Hawke will be somewhat aggressive.

Now that all the reasoning is out of the way, let's get to the speculation.

* Seeing as the males will possibly get the spicy/sweet options, does that mean females will choose between "hot" and "cold"? What  do you think male LIs who follow this mechanic would be like?

* If Isabela is indeed the spicy option, what character would fit the mold for a "sweet" option?


TL; DR - Get a freaking attention span.

Discuss.

what if wesley survives and aveline dies

[crimzontearz]

Ortaya Alevli wrote...

crimzontearz wrote...

Ortaya Alevli wrote...

crimzontearz wrote...

isn't it an inconsistency that the sex and status of some individuals change depending on who you choose to play as?

Give me an example, if you please. Your statement was a little ambiguous to me.

ok......in playthrough #1 Teyrn Cousland has a daughter who survives the betrayal of the Howes because Duncan happened to be there, in the same playthrough the second child of Aeducan is male and was exiled dying afterward in the deep roads

in playthrough #2 Teryn Cousland has a default son and he dies that fateful night because Duncan happens to be in Orzammar saving Aeducan's second child who is now a girl... 

These changes are the sort you the player are inducing. They have to be made. Blanks have to be filled. Not quite similar to changing characters and personalities. I wouldn't call any of those an inconsistency.

no not really.....you are changing the very sex and status of certain characters. Wether they "had" to be made or not because those are the "X" possibilities for a PC  those are still inconsistencies

[Ryzaki]

Ortaya Alevli wrote...

Leliana talks a lot about the well-being of elven servants in Orlais. Leliana also talks about how she lived as sort of a nurse child in Orlais. Zevran is a good indicator of Fereldan views on elves not being accepted worldwide. And...if your Warden is romancing Zevran, you can listen to an amusing piece of banter between Leliana and Alistair.
Those were my clues.

Hm...the elven conversation has a lot of light shed on it if you claim about the treatement of them as well trained animals. Leliana is stunned for a moment that you called her out on her prejudice. And becomes quickly contrite.

So I highly doubt they're treated on the same level as humans. They may be valued but they are far from being equal.

Zevran goes on to say he was picked as an assassin (many elves were) becaus they were attractive to humans. The fact that Zev's parents ended up dead he ended up in a wh**ehouse and was sold for a pittance doesn't look favorably at Zev's life in Antiva (nor does the fact that he speaks with somewhat Wonderment at how elves in Sten's homeworld hold high positions).

Modifié par Ryzaki, 21 novembre 2010 - 01:31 .

[Ortaya Alevli]

leonia42 wrote...

I was unaware that there was a "canon" gender for the younger Cousland/middle Aeducan child but I'd be happily proven wrong if you can site a source that says there is. It is canon that if you choose a non-Cousland Origin that the younger Cousland dies or if you choose a non-Aeducan that the second child dies (or is never heard from again at least after their exile). I'm not so sold on theire being gender canon with either of those and even if there were, so what? It doesn't change anything really.

I guess we could sort of guess at the "order" that Duncan is involved in the Origins but it's not an exact science, how do we know when he goes to Orzammar and when he goes to the Brecilian forest and when he goes to Highever (I assume he starts in Highever). And what does any of that really have to do with gender?

Guess he's referring to certain codex entries, such as Endrin Aeducan's note to Pyral Harrowmont. Not that it really matters, like you also said.

[crimzontearz]

Ortaya Alevli wrote...

leonia42 wrote...

I was unaware that there was a "canon" gender for the younger Cousland/middle Aeducan child but I'd be happily proven wrong if you can site a source that says there is. It is canon that if you choose a non-Cousland Origin that the younger Cousland dies or if you choose a non-Aeducan that the second child dies (or is never heard from again at least after their exile). I'm not so sold on theire being gender canon with either of those and even if there were, so what? It doesn't change anything really.

I guess we could sort of guess at the "order" that Duncan is involved in the Origins but it's not an exact science, how do we know when he goes to Orzammar and when he goes to the Brecilian forest and when he goes to Highever (I assume he starts in Highever). And what does any of that really have to do with gender?

Guess he's referring to certain codex entries, such as Endrin Aeducan's note to Pyral Harrowmont. Not that it really matters, like you also said.

when asked by a Cousland one of the nobles in orzammar says "What a shame that the king is left with only Bhalen of three Fine SONS"

[Ryzaki]

And now you guys have disrupted my HN for another female DE to romance Leliana. Gah. Blast you all! *shakes fist angrily*

[Ortaya Alevli]

Ryzaki wrote...

Ortaya Alevli wrote...

Leliana talks a lot about the well-being of elven servants in Orlais. Leliana also talks about how she lived as sort of a nurse child in Orlais. Zevran is a good indicator of Fereldan views on elves not being accepted worldwide. And...if your Warden is romancing Zevran, you can listen to an amusing piece of banter between Leliana and Alistair.
Those were my clues.

Hm...the elven conversation has a lot of light shed on it if you claim about the treatement of them as well trained animals. Leliana is stunned for a moment that you called her out on her prejudice. And becomes quickly contrite.

So I highly doubt they're treated on the same level as humans. They may be valued but they are far from being equal.

Zevran goes on to say he was picked as an assassin (many elves were) becaus they were attractive to humans. The fact that Zev's parents ended up dead he ended up in a wh**ehouse and was sold for a pittance doesn't look favorably at Zev's life in Antiva (nor does the fact that he speaks with somewhat Wonderment at how elves in Sten's homeworld hold high positions).

I hadn't interpreted that as the Warden being totally right on calling Leliana out for what she said, but maybe Leliana was indeed wrong in her observations. Can't say for sure.

I wouldn't go so far as to say elves and humans are equal in Orlais, but Leliana's status sounded as low as an elven servant's to me. Maybe it's just me.

[Ortaya Alevli]

crimzontearz wrote...

when asked by a Cousland one of the nobles in orzammar says "What a shame that the king is left with only Bhalen of three Fine SONS"

Right. That, too.

[crimzontearz]

Ryzaki wrote...

And now you guys have disrupted my HN for another female DE to romance Leliana. Gah. Blast you all! *shakes fist angrily*

sorry....I'll romance her TWICE with my human noble for you then

[Ryzaki]

Ortaya Alevli wrote...

I hadn't interpreted that as the Warden being totally right on calling Leliana out for what she said, but maybe Leliana was indeed wrong in her observations. Can't say for sure.

I wouldn't go so far as to say elves and humans are equal in Orlais, but Leliana's status sounded as low as an elven servant's to me. Maybe it's just me.

I felt it as such. She goes on how they're valued for their flexibilty and beauty. She says nothing about intelligence or anything else other than things used for entertainment.

I didn't see it that way. Lady Cecile apparently treated her well and I have no doubt that as a Bard she would have her pick of wealth (she goes on about how she somewhat misses some of the fine things she had in Orlais. Which I doubt she could've afforded had she been poor).

[ok go]

i just dont want someone who is mentally unstable again and goes off the deep end, i hope sweet is alistair personality sweet.

[Ortaya Alevli]

Ryzaki wrote...

I didn't see it that way. Lady Cecile apparently treated her well and I have no doubt that as a Bard she would have her pick of wealth (she goes on about how she somewhat misses some of the fine things she had in Orlais. Which I doubt she could've afforded had she been poor).

She probably made good as a bard, but before that, I have no clue. Except that she was technically a nurse child.

And now you guys have disrupted my HN for another female DE to romance Leliana. Gah. Blast you all! *shakes fist angrily*

Happy to help!

[Ortaya Alevli]

crimzontearz wrote...

no not really.....you are changing the very sex and status of certain characters. Wether they "had" to be made or not because those are the "X" possibilities for a PC  those are still inconsistencies

If they were male depending on some customization options and female for others, now I'd call that an inconsistency. Otherwise, placeholders hold place.

[Eveangaline]

crimzontearz wrote...
ok one chartacter per continuity and fictional universe......

and you are not JUST changing their sex you are changing other events around you.

If you play a cousland then the Aeducan middle child might be dead in the Deep Roads

if you play as the Exiled aeducan then the Teryn son/daughter died in the wake of Howe's betrayal

I always saw that as just changing where Duncan is at a certain time. That's the one change and all the others are just a result of that. He's schroideners duncan (I know I spelled that wrong but too lazy to look it up).


Frankly the fact that Bioware had a confirmed gender for the auducan second child was something I always considered...really dumb. There were so many gender nuetral ways they could have said it, and I wish they had. Same with finding the corpse of the dwarf commoner, it should have just been bones. That's the one main issue I have with the origins.

But honestly, the origin people? Don't really have characters until we play them as our warden, except for a few things we hear from other people. So I wouldn't say that they are 'characters' that get changed.

Basically, my stance is- if something about them changes from game to game depending on how you interact with them that's fine. It makes sense they would act different to your good aligned character than your **** character. But if something changes their own personal history then that person isn't really the same character as the other.

[Leonia]

Maybe it would have been easier if the other origins weren't referenced at all once the player chose their origin for a particular playthrough. Not that the origins changed much in the game post-Ostagar anyway (aside from a bit of extra dialogue in certain places but nothing that substantially changed the plot or anything). I always treated the other origins as being gender neutral since ultimately they don't matter, they all die if Duncan doesn't recruit them so their role in events is pretty non-existant. Their role doesn't matter and neither does their gender really. Unless any of those characters were married or had had children or with child or something like that, I can't think of a reason that their gender would have affected anything.

Modifié par leonia42, 21 novembre 2010 - 01:54 .

[Ryzaki]

Ortaya Alevli wrote...
She probably made good as a bard, but before that, I have no clue. Except that she was technically a nurse child.

True but Cecile apparently treatd her well. I doubt Leliana had *everything* she wanted but I also doubt she went without.

Happy to help!

*grumbles* I was almost finished with Ostagar...

There really needs to be a skip ostagar mod. I mean really. Its quite dull after a while.