62 réponses à ce sujet

[ejoslin]

Leliana and Zevran are both so different in personality, and in the paths their romances go are In fact, I can't think of more different romances than Leliana's and Zevran's. If I were just comparing romances, I'd say Leliana's and Alistair's are the most similar.

[ejoslin]

The Water God wrote...


Yeah i'm Morrigan doesn't care enough seeing how easy she is. But harden Leliana and Zevrans Companion banters are much more flirty in my opinon.

Morrigan has her reasons for being there -- i don't think she's "easy" as she's not having sex with anyone but the male warden.  I'm assuming you find a woman open with her sexuality a bad thing (hence the use of a derogatory term).  You have to have approval up to 51+ so she at least has to care for the warden before she'll have sex with him anyway.

hardened leliana/Zevran's banter is not that flirty -- she calls him on his bluff.  Oh, one other banter has a different line, but they're definitely not jumping each other's bones.

I also don't think Zevran is serious with his flirting with her.  he is a skilled seducer and asks her to "knock boots."  I really don't think he expected her to take him up on it.  Zevran flirts with Alistair, Wynne, Morrigan, Leliana, Oghren.  Yet...  the only one he pursues is the warden, and the seduction is quite a bit different than the flirty banters.

Edit; all that said, i don't think minded the foursome one little bit!

Modifié par ejoslin, 20 novembre 2010 - 11:07 .

[ejoslin]

The Water God wrote...

ejoslin wrote...

The Water God wrote...


Yeah i'm Morrigan doesn't care enough seeing how easy she is. But harden Leliana and Zevrans Companion banters are much more flirty in my opinon.

Morrigan has her reasons for being there -- i don't think she's "easy" as she's not having sex with anyone but the male warden.  I'm assuming you find a woman open with her sexuality a bad thing (hence the use of a derogatory term).  You have to have approval up to 51+ so she at least has to care for the warden before she'll have sex with him anyway.

hardened leliana/Zevran's banter is not that flirty -- she calls him on his bluff.  Oh, one other banter has a different line, but they're definitely not jumping each other's bones.

I also don't think Zevran is serious with his flirting with her.  he is a skilled seducer and asks her to "knock boots."  I really don't think he expected her to take him up on it.  Zevran flirts with Alistair, Wynne, Morrigan, Leliana, Oghren.  Yet...  the only one he pursues is the warden, and the seduction is quite a bit different than the flirty banters.

Right I didn't say he didn't flirt with others . Its just that Leliana seems to find Zevran more attractable than the other companions. Thats why she flirts with him in a few dialouges.

I still say they have a lot in common btw.

I honestly don't see it beyond the fact that they both used to kill people for a living and both are bisexual.  I also don't really see her flirting, though i guess hardened she has one dialog that makes it sound like she is open to it.

Both Leliana and Zevran are supposed to be amazingly attractive (whether you like the character models or not, they're supposed to be incredible looking) so it's not surprising that they acknowledge it.  But they are still very, very different people with wildly different histories.

Leliana says something about Alistair's looks as well, more than one thing actually.

I could maybe see them hooking up if the Warden wasn't involved, but then again, if it weren't for the warden, Leliana would still be in the chantry and Zevran would still be with the crows.

[Ryzaki]

Aren't all of the LIs supposed to be amazingly attractive? The PC too for that matter...Morrigan mentions how men fall all over her and uses her looks to her advantage, Leliana pretty much the same thing, Zevran uses his looks to get closer to his targets and Alistair apparently gets hit on by some random women who may or may not have been wh*res. (And the PC can say he's handsome and he knows it so that's that) meanwhile the HN/CE origins (Don't know about the others) have people openly compliment you on your looks.

It's like an episode of the beautiful people.

You know someone's a bad guy because he/she isn't as attractive as everyone else.

...Unless they're old.

Modifié par Ryzaki, 20 novembre 2010 - 11:45 .

[ejoslin]

Ryzaki wrote...

Aren't all of the LIs supposed to be amazingly attractive? The PC too for that matter...

It's like an episode of the beautiful people.

Yes, but the discussion was about Leliana and Zevran.  *grin* Alistair will even call morrigan beautiful as well Leliana.

In fact, leliana flirts a whole lot more with Morrigan than anyone else.  Morrigan has to tell her to stop staring at her breasts!

Modifié par ejoslin, 20 novembre 2010 - 11:45 .

[Ryzaki]

ejoslin wrote...

Yes, but the discussion was about Leliana and Zevran.  *grin* Alistair will even call morrigan beautiful as well Leliana.

In fact, leliana flirts a whole lot more with Morrigan than anyone else.  Morrigan has to tell her to stop staring at her breasts!

I laughed or a good five minutes about it.

"Stop looking at my breasts like that (something similar)! Tis most distrubing!" 

Though yes. Is it odd that I actually want an average looking LI? Preferably with a nasty scar/burn on his/her face? I think it could be an interesting relationship if done right. Plus the banter between them and the better looking LI would be pretty fun (particularly if the pretty LI is the spicy and jealous type). Someone you wouldn't look at and go "Oh that's an LI" like you can with Morrigan, Leliana, Zevran and Alistair.

Modifié par Ryzaki, 20 novembre 2010 - 11:49 .

[ok go]

flirts with Morrigan alot more as in one banter?

[EccentricSage]

The Water God wrote...

Ryzaki wrote...

The only thing that annoys me about DA is and always will be that those two are the only rogues.

Seriously? Why couldn't we get another rogue PC?

Well its not just that but its that the only two bisexuals in DA are rouges? Why couldn't we have a big strong warrior dude who's bi.

OOOH!  I know the answer, sort of!

I read a reply from David Gaider on a blog, where gays were complaining that Zevran isn't their type.  David Gaider explained that originaly he wanted to just make all the romance options bisexual, but they were forced to make cuts or they'd go over budget.

As far as why they chose the rogues, I don't remember if he said anything too specific about that, but it's actually very logical.  Zevran had to be bisexual because it was an important part of his background.  David Gaider has posted in a thread before about how being bisexual would be useful as an assassin, and how he'd been inspired when researching assassins and reading that many organizations chose gay men.

As for why Lelliana, besides the fact that being able to seduce men and women alike would be just as useful to her, there is the fact that a lesbian romance factored strongly into who story.  besides that, it makes more sense for Morrigan to be the heterosexual option because she has an alterior motive and only a man can give her what she needs for the Dark Ritual.  It's not like bisexuality would be necessary for hers or Alistair's backgrounds, as we do not know about Morrigan's sexual history or age, and we know Alistair is a shy vergin with traditional ideals.


Anyhow, as for Zevran and Lelliana being too alike, I got the impression that the fact that their backgrounds are simular on the surface was intentional, as everything else about them is juxtapositioned, once you come to relate them to eachother based uppon their... work history.  Once you get past the vaguest, most shallow examination of who and what they are, and delve deaper, you find they are nearly opposite in many ways.  Zevran, for example coming from severe poverty and abuse, never knowing any family, and forced into his line of work as a slave.  Lelliana coming from a loving mother and the care of a noble, living in luxury, and choosing her line of work out of fascination and desire for a woman.

How and why they leave their previous life is just as different.  Zevran was cruel to a women he had fealings for, because he was afraid of love, and let her die unjustly.  He takes the contract on the Wardens because he has come to realise that his life has no value, nor the life of the woman he thought he loved, and he wishes to die in what must be a respectable way for a Crow.  Lelliana thought she was in love, would do anything no matter how vile for her Marjolain, and then was badly betrayed by her lover, and victimized because of her lover.  She escapes and runs away to the Chantry in Ferelden and embraces religion.

How they deal with who they were/are and where they are going in life is also different. 

Zevran is proud of who he is, and feals he had every right to kill his marks, as it was an act of survival, and fair.  Lelliana comes to question and regret her past, as she realizes the choices she made may have been wrong. 

Zevran does not want the Warden to see him as a victim, even though it would aleviate some of the blame the Warden might place on him for what he has done. 
Lelliana wants to be seen as the victim, as it will aleviate some of the blame the Warden might place on her for what she has done.

Zevran is blunt in his self portrayail, and paints himself in a way that makes him look as dark and gritty as his life has been.
Lelliana is vague in her self portrail, and hides behind fantasy, cuteness, and storytelling.

I could probably go on like this for quite awhile.

[ok go]

EccentricSage wrote...

The Water God wrote...

Ryzaki wrote...

The only thing that annoys me about DA is and always will be that those two are the only rogues.

Seriously? Why couldn't we get another rogue PC?

Well its not just that but its that the only two bisexuals in DA are rouges? Why couldn't we have a big strong warrior dude who's bi.

OOOH!  I know the answer, sort of!

I read a reply from David Gaider on a blog, where gays were complaining that Zevran isn't their type.  David Gaider explained that originaly he wanted to just make all the romance options bisexual, but they were forced to make cuts or they'd go over budget.

As far as why they chose the rogues, I don't remember if he said anything too specific about that, but it's actually very logical.  Zevran had to be bisexual because it was an important part of his background.  David Gaider has posted in a thread before about how being bisexual would be useful as an assassin, and how he'd been inspired when researching assassins and reading that many organizations chose gay men.

As for why Lelliana, besides the fact that being able to seduce men and women alike would be just as useful to her, there is the fact that a lesbian romance factored strongly into who story.  besides that, it makes more sense for Morrigan to be the heterosexual option because she has an alterior motive and only a man can give her what she needs for the Dark Ritual.  It's not like bisexuality would be necessary for hers or Alistair's backgrounds, as we do not know about Morrigan's sexual history or age, and we know Alistair is a shy vergin with traditional ideals.


Anyhow, as for Zevran and Lelliana being too alike, I got the impression that the fact that their backgrounds are simular on the surface was intentional, as everything else about them is juxtapositioned, once you come to relate them to eachother based uppon their... work history.  Once you get past the vaguest, most shallow examination of who and what they are, and delve deaper, you find they are nearly opposite in many ways.  Zevran, for example coming from severe poverty and abuse, never knowing any family, and forced into his line of work as a slave.  Lelliana coming from a loving mother and the care of a noble, living in luxury, and choosing her line of work out of fascination and desire for a woman.

How and why they leave their previous life is just as different.  Zevran was cruel to a women he had fealings for, because he was afraid of love, and let her die unjustly.  He takes the contract on the Wardens because he has come to realise that his life has no value, nor the life of the woman he thought he loved, and he wishes to die in what must be a respectable way for a Crow.  Lelliana thought she was in love, would do anything no matter how vile for her Marjolain, and then was badly betrayed by her lover, and victimized because of her lover.  She escapes and runs away to the Chantry in Ferelden and embraces religion.

How they deal with who they were/are and where they are going in life is also different. 

Zevran is proud of who he is, and feals he had every right to kill his marks, as it was an act of survival, and fair.  Lelliana comes to question and regret her past, as she realizes the choices she made may have been wrong. 

Zevran does not want the Warden to see him as a victim, even though it would aleviate some of the blame the Warden might place on him for what he has done. 
Lelliana wants to be seen as the victim, as it will aleviate some of the blame the Warden might place on her for what she has done.

Zevran is blunt in his self portrayail, and paints himself in a way that makes him look as dark and gritty as his life has been.
Lelliana is vague in her self portrail, and hides behind fantasy, cuteness, and storytelling.

I could probably go on like this for quite awhile.

i saw forums a few months back where a dev said they never had plans to make Alistair bi, idk about Morrigan.  some people have been harsh on Zev's sexuality and Gaider has made comments on how that irks him.

Modifié par ok go, 21 novembre 2010 - 07:20 .

[Ryzaki]

Yeah Alistair was always straight as was Morri.



>



No handsome Templar for my Cousland guy.



Poor thing. Has to be single.



Well...at least he's not a virgin. XD

[EccentricSage]

I have to get to bed. (I should have been already) I'll see if I can find the blog where David posted, though, because in it he said that he had wanted to make him bi, but they had to cut back dialogue. I'd imagine the cuts must have been made early on in the writing process, I wasn't claiming it was in toolset or cut at the end or anything. I think David Gaider is more of an authority on his intentions for those characters than another dev, as he probably does not discuss every idea he has with every member of the dev team, know what I mean?



I adore David Gaider doubly for his avid defense of Zevran's sexuality AND masculinity. It seemed like the character was getting really unfairly judged from both sides early on... Straights hating on him for being 'too gay' and gays hating on him for being 'not masculine enough'... the latter making even less sense to me. I mean, hell, I'm not normally into tanned blonds. Doesn't mean I'm going to complain because Zev is a tanned blond.

[Ryzaki]

Eh my only problems with Zev back then was that his skin looked blotchy. I'm not sure if it was my vid card or no but all darker skin tones had a nasty blotched look like someone had a disease or something. Yuck.

[EccentricSage]

Ryzaki wrote...

Eh my only problems with Zev back then was that his skin looked blotchy. I'm not sure if it was my vid card or no but all darker skin tones had a nasty blotched look like someone had a disease or something. Yuck.

It's your vid card.  Mine is outdated, and I get the same blotchy skin tones, because I have to keep the graphics settings at the lowest level to even play the game, because of the epic lag.  *sigh*  I need a new computer.  But I've seen screencaps and youtube vids of what he looks like on better computer/cards, and he looks great.  The graphics and skin tones also all look great if I pause the game and turn up the graphic settings, but I can only take screencaps once I do, as there is a good 30 second to a full minute lag.  XD

[nos_astra]

ok go wrote...
i saw forums a few months back where a dev said they never had plans to make Alistair bi, idk about Morrigan.  some people have been harsh on Zev's sexuality and Gaider has made comments on how that irks him.

Hu? I read they had plans to make him bi.

Modifié par klarabella, 21 novembre 2010 - 12:02 .

[Creature 1]

It would certainly make the lamppost conversation make more sense! 

[ejoslin]

Zevran's closest lover was actually male... Taliesen. his best friend, his lover, etc. Taliesen is more the equivalent to Marjolaine, and it's still completely different.



Really, Zevran's and Leliana's stories aren't even mirror opposites. They were assassins for different reasons, with different circumstances leading up to it, and became such at different ages. The fact that they were both bisexual really made their jobs easier, and made them more suited for it.



I think if you try, you can find similarities (or opposites) in anything, but really, they're two very different stories with very different outcomes, with only some of the details being similar.

[ejoslin]

The Water God wrote...

ejoslin wrote...

Zevran's closest lover was actually male... Taliesen. his best friend, his lover, etc. Taliesen is more the equivalent to Marjolaine, and it's still completely different.

Really, Zevran's and Leliana's stories aren't even mirror opposites. They were assassins for different reasons, with different circumstances leading up to it, and became such at different ages. The fact that they were both bisexual really made their jobs easier, and made them more suited for it.

I think if you try, you can find similarities (or opposites) in anything, but really, they're two very different stories with very different outcomes, with only some of the details being similar.

*facepalm*
Umm no..... Zevran clearly states Riana was his lover and Taliesen was his friend. Even if they did "experiment" with one another, he would hardly be his closest lover or else he wouldn't get over killing him as easily as he does. When he kills Riana he turns suicidal. They are clearly not lovers.......

They were lovers.  It's not the easiest to find this out, but they most certainly were lovers.  if you want the dialog that reveals this, romance him, has his approval be between 26 interested and 70 care, and have him leave the fight with Taliesen.  

The story of Rinna is far more involved than Zevran allowing Taliesen to kill Rinna.  there's the bit about how the Crow master reacts as well, totally destroying the image Zevran had of himself.. He thought he was the best Crow, the best lover, and learns that every way he defined himself was false. The relationship with taliesen was most certainly a surface-type relationship, but so was the relationship with Rinna really.  Zevran will also admit he had no clue what love was before the warden, just as he will say he never had a friend.  the relationships were different for sure than the one he had with the warden, either as lover or friend.

Edit; Even the toolset describes Zevran and Taliesen as lovers.  I've been over these dialogs extensively seeing as i fixed the few thousand bugs in it.

second edit: Zevran describes Rinna as "smooth, tough, wicked, eyes that gleamed like justice -- everything i thought I desired."  It's the warden who can suggest that zevran loved her.  And he probably thought he did.  But what he did to Rinna and how the crow master reacted really more brought him to the realization of how worthless his life really was.  But with Taliesen, Zevran straight out admits their relationship was more than friendship, if you get into that situation.

But thanks for the facepalm  I'm sure a lot of ZevFans facepalm over how I see the story.  However, just because you haven't seen a dialog doesn't mean it doesn't exist.

one more edit;  The interesting thing is you know that Zevran doesn't kill Rinna.  He allows Taliesen to kill her on a belief that Taliesen had.  He has no anger at all towards Taliesen over this, however; he doesn't seem to blame him at all.  Which is what makes me doubt that Zevran actually loved her.  Again, he probably thought he did.  But later on, if you ask him if he is in love with your character, he admits he has no idea what love is.

Modifié par ejoslin, 21 novembre 2010 - 09:31 .

[EccentricSage]

I'm with you on this view over all, ejoslin.

I would just add that he also seemed disguested with his own cruelty to someone who had not done him wrong. He likes to think of himself as an efficient killer who does his job well, but is never intentionally cruel. He seems to have had this whole idealized view of the House of Crows... that they do what they do because they must, and that there is some honor and justice in it. I think it's not just his view of himself that is damaged, but also that a part of his worldview he built his identity on is pulled right out from under him.

He also mentions that it meant his life meant nothing, AND that Rinna's life meant nothing. I think it wasn't just his pride that was wounded, but also the heart he had been trying to pretend he didn't have. Which does not mean he loved her, just that he cared.

When Tasliesen is killed, Zevran is visibly upset, much more than he would usually reveal, but he quickly tries to hide it. This little hint occurs even at Adore. He just switches gears from looking completely torn up over the death of Taliesen, to being hopeful about his future prospects, which he immediately fixates on. I think that the quickness with which he seems to get over Taliesen's death speaks more of how Zevran has survived such a hard life than it does his feelings for Taliesen. He's never had the luxury of mourning, forming deep bonds with others, or dwelling on the past. All these things we take for granted or even at times regard as unpleasant, but are parts of what make us human, and all would have got him killed as a Crow. I think that's a huge part of the great tragedy of Zevran and Taliesen. It's very easy to completely over look, as with many things regarding Zevran, it's not simply spelt out for the player, it takes some real exploration and reflection on his psychology to figure out what's going on with him. I didn't see the whole picture myself until I went on these forums and started reading ejoslin's posts about the toolset and stuff.

Modifié par EccentricSage, 21 novembre 2010 - 09:36 .

[ejoslin]

I agree with everything you say there, ES. Rinna was an innocent, and someone he did care about, though I doubt either of them were actually capable of love. And yes, he is visibly upset over Taliesen's death. But he does have to move on, and always had to move on as death, of both marks and of fellow crows, was just something he had to deal with always.

Zevran and Taliesen being lovers is clearly spelled out, but only if Zevran leaves the fight with him -- unable to side with either. He says it before the fight, and he says it later if you ask him about it at camp.

It is a shame it is overlooked -- it just gives his story that much more depth. Though they're not supposed to form attachments, Zevran certainly had attachments to both Rinna and Taliesen, and it was returned as well.

Modifié par ejoslin, 21 novembre 2010 - 09:41 .