108 réponses à ce sujet

[Archereon]

Dave of Canada wrote...

From what I've gathered:
Instead of having to wait 5 seconds for a move to activate, it's almost instant. As well as the removal of the "shuffle" that had characters dance around enemies for 5 seconds before doing anything. This makes the game appear almost hack & slash but it plays almost the same as Origins.

If you were on the console, you now get the ability to move companions through the radial menu.
If you were on the PC, they removed the extremely-zoomed out camera but otherwise it remains the same with a few changes.

Do we HAVE to move comps through radial, can we directly control comps on console?

If so, I'm actually considering not buying this game (at least until I decide its time to upgrade my computer)

Modifié par Archereon, 21 novembre 2010 - 02:29 .

[ClassyUnicorn]

Archereon wrote...

Dave of Canada wrote...

From what I've gathered:
Instead of having to wait 5 seconds for a move to activate, it's almost instant. As well as the removal of the "shuffle" that had characters dance around enemies for 5 seconds before doing anything. This makes the game appear almost hack & slash but it plays almost the same as Origins.

If you were on the console, you now get the ability to move companions through the radial menu.
If you were on the PC, they removed the extremely-zoomed out camera but otherwise it remains the same with a few changes.

Do we HAVE to move comps through radial, can we directly control comps on console?

If so, I'm actually considering not buying this game (at least until I decide its time to upgrade my computer)

You can still switch to companions and manually move them like you could in Origins. What he means is now you can pause and tell your companion rogue to flank the enemy or have pause and have your entire party move out of the way of that big fireball the enemy mage is casting without having to move them switch and move them individually one at a time.

[StingingVelvet]

Suprez30 wrote...

Origin it's a mix between realtime and turn based combat.When you attack someone you can't control your character anymore(Outside of giving him order) .

So i guess they're simply giving you more freedom of your character while in combat.You're not waiting for the other *player* to move his chess piece before attacking.

Divinity 2 would be a great exemple ...
World of Warcraft
Age of Conan
Dark Age of Camelot
The Witcher
Origin
NWN
Baldur Gate

They all share a different kind of gameplay . But they're all hack and slasher.
You just can't queue up 200 attack and  take a shower before it's over.

Divinity 2 is a pure action RPG.  It lets you pause, sure, but there is no real hidden turn going on to my knowledge.

[AbounI]

Suprez30 wrote...

Origin it's a mix between realtime and turn based combat.When you attack someone you can't control your character anymore(Outside of giving him order) .

So i guess they're simply giving you more freedom of your character while in combat.You're not waiting for the other *player* to move his chess piece before attacking.


Baldur Gate

They all share a different kind of gameplay . But they're all hack and slasher.
You just can't queue up 200 attack and  take a shower before it's over.

I suppose you were talking about the BG for PS2?If it is so, yes it's a H&S game, but if not you're totally wrong.How a turn by turn system can be considered as a H&S mechanical game?Unless you consider BG is not a turn by turn RPG?

[Rawgrim]

Bg and Bg 2 is as far from a hack and slash game as you can get (pc version).

[Sir JK]

The big question is: What defines Hack and Slash? Where do you draw the line between what is and what is not H&S?

This is crucial to answering wether the game is or is not H&S in it's approach to combat.



Is it that combat is flashy and/or gory?

If so then I think many classical cRPGs would qualify, In Baldur's Gate 2 for instance, magic effects tended to absolutely dominate everything visually late game and opponents could be ripped apart by high damage. Very flashy, very gory... albeit limited by the engine. If that is the case then it is not unlikely DA2 would qualify.



Is it that combat is real time as opposed to turn based?

Then DA:O will also qualify, because it too is real time. Just like DA:O though, DA2 is pausable and the pacing is primarily controlled by the cooldowns of the abilities (and autoattack). The shuffling is gone however, replaced by a faster engage-system. If this is the case then yes, it is H&S in the same vein as DA:O would be.



Is it that it's responsive and fast paced?

The yes, but how would that be a bad thing? It is still pausable and the strategies would have to take into account that they take effect immediatly and that the enemy could instantly respond to them.



Is it that all actions are directly player controlled through "twitch"?

Then the answer is no. It is still controlled through cooldown-based abilities and issued commands.



Is it a combination?

If so what combination?



Is it some arbitrary line (this game is H&S and this one is not)?

If so, what does it matter? What would that defintion tell us?

[druplesnubb]

thegreateski wrote...

It's not a hack and slash. I said quietly to myself for the 12th time.




Yah know what? Yeah. It is a hack and slash, but the story and characters are still of Bioware quality writing.

What is your opinion now?

What exactly makes it hack and slash? Is it the way you have to pause to issue orders to your characters (the pause function will probably be more important than in the first game since everything happens faster now), how you have to coordinate four different characters (the combos will probably reward coordination and timing even more) or how you can zoom out to get a better strategic view (though they removed the isometric camera for some reason:() or how there is no auto-attack (atleast not on the pc, can't remember what it was like on consoles since I don't care about them). It certainly can't be because of the flashiness or the speed of the animations. Imagine someone actually believing that such minor things would somehow change a games genre:lol:

Modifié par druplesnubb, 21 novembre 2010 - 04:55 .

[ENolan]

Tried staying out of this one, but I still have to ask: what would be so bad if they did admit to some hack'n'slash mechanics?

[Lyssistr]

The Director wrote...

Tried staying out of this one, but I still have to ask: what would be so bad if they did admit to some hack'n'slash mechanics?

 Admitting it would be the best, then things would be clear. Trying to tell both fans of aRPGs and old-school combat that DA2 has the combat they want to see is what's bad.

 Ofc, since DA franchise was about reviving CRPGS, back to the roots etc, it makes sense that some people don't like the new direction, they may have gotten into the franchise only because it promised to revive old-school cRPGs.

[Dave of Canada]

Really? I thought Origins was the back to the roots, not the entire franchise.

[marbatico]

Maria Caliban wrote...
Is it flashy
here or there?
It is not flashy
here or there.
It is not flashy anywhere.


It is not flashy in a house?
It is not flashy with a mouse?

It is not flashy
in a house.
It is not flashy
with a mouse.
It is not flashy
here or there.
It is not flashy
anywhere.

Is it flashy
in a box?
Is it flashy
with a fox?
Not in a box.
Not with a fox.
Not in a house.
Not with a mouse.
It is not flashy
here or there.
It is not flashy anywhere.

i bow to the master!

[upsettingshorts]

Dave of Canada wrote...

Really? I thought Origins was the back to the roots, not the entire franchise.

It is kind of remarkable which marketing phrases people will cling to like some unbreakable promise or gospel, and which they will discard as public relations nonsense.

[Malanek]

LegendaryAvenger wrote...

 Not sure if there is a thread up of this.
I've seen a gameplay video and instead of assigning squaddies to attack certain enemies, you just play it like Diablo or Vindictus. How is this going to work? Will there still be a pause and assign feature?

Why do people think it looks like diablo? IMO it bears almost no resemblance at all. I'm 99.9% sure you can still pause. I have no idea what vindictus is like. 

The fact you can pause and issue commands means that it is a strategy game rather than an action game. Bioware need to be careful that they leave in enough strategical depth, so long as they do I encourage comabt being sped up. I am a little concerned it might end up like party based Fable with pause, that wouldn't work as a game as it would lack depth.

[AlanC9]

Two pages and I still have no idea what "hack and slash mechanics" means. Except for twitch combat, which isn't in DA2.

[Shepard Lives]

Upsettingshorts wrote...

It is kind of remarkable which marketing phrases people will cling to like some unbreakable promise or gospel, and which they will discard as public relations nonsense.

Bloody well said, Pants.

[konfeta]

Why do people think it looks like diablo? IMO it bears almost no
resemblance at all. I'm 99.9% sure you can still pause. I have no idea
what vindictus is like.

Because people making the comparison probably didn't play Diablo and use it as a catch all negative comparison to anything even remotely different from Origins?

I, mean, really - all the information released indicates that the system is fundamentally the same as Origins with different numbers for timing, speed, and HP:Damage ratios. The overhead camera change sucks, yes, but combat is still no where NEAR Diablo or its cousins.

Modifié par konfeta, 21 novembre 2010 - 10:46 .

[ENolan]

AlanC9 wrote...

Two pages and I still have no idea what "hack and slash mechanics" means. Except for twitch combat, which isn't in DA2.

Watch a recent video of Dynasty Warriors/Samurai Warriors gameplay and you'll get it. People are viewing the DAII gameplay videos, especially from Igomir [doubt I spelled that right], like they are the new DW iterations. They obviously aren't even in console terms so their 'fears' are unfounded. Even if they took a page out of Koei's book, it isn't the worst thing ever. But the footage is clear: things are more responsive, not crowd-clearing. But it always comes back to these over-simplifications and, like Nathaniel Howe, I'm not a fan of them.

[Seb Hanlon]

Malanek999 wrote...

LegendaryAvenger wrote...

 Not sure if there is a thread up of this.
I've seen a gameplay video and instead of assigning squaddies to attack certain enemies, you just play it like Diablo or Vindictus. How is this going to work? Will there still be a pause and assign feature?

Why do people think it looks like diablo? IMO it bears almost no resemblance at all. I'm 99.9% sure you can still pause. I have no idea what vindictus is like. 

The fact you can pause and issue commands means that it is a strategy game rather than an action game. Bioware need to be careful that they leave in enough strategical depth, so long as they do I encourage comabt being sped up. I am a little concerned it might end up like party based Fable with pause, that wouldn't work as a game as it would lack depth.

DA2 supports pause'n'play to allow you to carefully consider your positioning, basic attacks, and ability use for all your party members. On the PC, it plays much like Origins, though with faster, more expressive, less hesitant movement and animations, and better hit presentation. On the console, we've made it easier to play tactically by improving the radial menu (for example, it no longer automatically closes after issuing a command) and adding the ability to give move-to-point orders to your party members.

[Malanek]

konfeta wrote...

Why do people think it looks like diablo? IMO it bears almost no
resemblance at all. I'm 99.9% sure you can still pause. I have no idea
what vindictus is like.

Because people making the comparison probably didn't play Diablo and use it as a catch all negative comparison to anything even remotely different from Origins?

I, mean, really - all the information released indicates that the system is fundamentally the same as Origins with different numbers for timing, speed, and HP:Damage ratios. The overhead camera change sucks, yes, but combat is still no where NEAR Diablo or its cousins.

Diablo has, and only has, a top down tactical camera. If anything the change to that is moving it further away from Diablo. The two big differences are that you can't pause in Diablo and you control a single character. IMO the ability to pause, issue commands and then resume make it strategical rather than action orientated.

[shinobi602]

thegreateski wrote...

It's not a hack and slash. I said quietly to myself for the 12th time.




Yah know what? Yeah. It is a hack and slash, but the story and characters are still of Bioware quality writing.

What is your opinion now?

My kind of game

[Dave of Canada]

Seb Hanlon wrote...

On the console, we've made it easier to play tactically by improving the radial menu (for example, it no longer automatically closes after issuing a command) and adding the ability to give move-to-point orders to your party members.

Thank you, thank you, thank you, thank you, thank you, thank you, thank you, thank you, thank you, thank you, thank you, thank you, thank you.


Did I say " thank you"? I think I did, just incase I forgot.

Thank you!

[ptibog]

Seb Hanlon wrote...
On the PC, it plays much like Origins, though with faster, more expressive, less hesitant movement and animations, and better hit presentation.

i must agree with this, the flamenco dancing rogues are far more expressive.


seriously, are the animation WIP? It looks like someone randomly removed keyframes in two-handed sword animations to shorten them.  <_<

[bsbcaer]

Archereon wrote...

Dave of Canada wrote...

From what I've gathered:
Instead of having to wait 5 seconds for a move to activate, it's almost instant. As well as the removal of the "shuffle" that had characters dance around enemies for 5 seconds before doing anything. This makes the game appear almost hack & slash but it plays almost the same as Origins.

If you were on the console, you now get the ability to move companions through the radial menu.
If you were on the PC, they removed the extremely-zoomed out camera but otherwise it remains the same with a few changes.

Do we HAVE to move comps through radial, can we directly control comps on console?

If so, I'm actually considering not buying this game (at least until I decide its time to upgrade my computer)

You can still switch characters (for eg. from Hawke, to Bethany, to Varric) just like Origins, however, if you wanted to position Varric in front of a door ready to blow people up with Bianca (his crossbow), you can use the radial to position him (move here for eg) rather than assuming direct control of Varric and positioning him before switching back to another character

[konfeta]

IMO the ability to pause, issue commands and then resume make it strategical rather than action orientated.

This. I play both types of games avidly (BG, NWN, DA; Diablo, Titan Quest, Torchlight as some examples). The difference in gameplay is like night and day between those lists. You can attribute a great deal of that difference to the "give commands, models carry out on their own" oriented controls of the former and 1:1 correspondence of input--->action of the latter. True Hack'n'Slash games feel a lot more like a shooter game than a game like Dragon Age; and a party tactical RPG feels a lot more like an real time or turn based strategy game than Diablo.

On the PC, it plays much like Origins, though with faster, more expressive, less hesitant movement and animations, and better hit presentation

Who wants to bet money that despite this (and tens of other similar posts by Bioware devs) we will see a thread pop up in a couple of weeks wailing against DAII for becoming a hack'n'slash, action, etc. game rather than a "true RPG?"

Modifié par konfeta, 21 novembre 2010 - 11:08 .

[upsettingshorts]

konfeta wrote...
Who wants to bet money that despite this (and tens of other similar posts by Bioware devs) we will see a thread pop up in a couple of weeks wailing against DAII for becoming a hack'n'slash, action, etc. game rather than a "true RPG?"

Oh the critics have already moved on from "you won't be able to pause because it's a hack and slash game" to "you won't need to pause because you'll be able to play it like a hack and slash game."

I imagine this will persist until the game actually releases.  Then it will change to something else.