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[SonofMacPhisto]

Tony Gunslinger wrote...

jwalker wrote...


That's good to know. Always thought the freezing 'speed' had to do with damage. I was under the impression that freezing target with the Carnifex is faster than using the Tempest...

The freezing speed is the same, what you're seeing is maybe chance to freeze. All SMGs freeze randomly, but it's compensated by its high RoF. The Improved version supposedly inceases the chance, but for every 10 times I've burst-fired a klixen and freezes, there's always a few that don't, no matter what version I use. It's pretty random so I can't really "prove" it, I just trust the writers this time (yeah, I'm looking at you, Warp Ammo).

I was trying to freeze with the Shuriken on LotSB last night, and it seemed like an exercise in futility.  This was on VETERAN. *facepalm*

[Simbacca]

Tony Gunslinger wrote...

...It's pretty random so I can't really "prove" it, I just trust the writers this time (yeah, I'm looking at you, Warp Ammo)

What's wrong with warp ammo?

[Bozorgmehr]

Simbacca wrote...

What's wrong with warp ammo?

Dunno, but Improved vs Squad Cryo Ammo's freezing speed might be a good addition to your Ammo Powers: the right tool for each enemy topic

Modifié par Bozorgmehr, 15 décembre 2010 - 08:17 .

[Simbacca]

Bozorgmehr wrote...

Simbacca wrote...

What's wrong with warp ammo?

Dunno, but Improved vs Squad Cryo Ammo's freezing speed might be a good addition to your Ammo Powers: the right tool for each enemy topic

Yes but I still doubt the actually freezing speed is any different.  Yes, Improved increases the change of freeze per shot more (which would only be noticable on Assault Rifles and SMGs since Heavy Pistols, Shotguns, and Snipers always freeze with with 1pt Cryo Ammo), but I still believe the freezing animation is the same length across the board.  I recently tried out Deep Cryo Blast on my Engineer in hopes that it might freeze quicker than Full Cryo Blast but alas, it seemed exactly the same to me.  Will have to test with Improved Cryo vs Squad Cryo vs 1pt Cryo Ammo.

Also that thread is more for beginners to insanity, which is why it leans so heavily on the 'use casting powers for defenses, ammo powers for control' over the also viable though slightly more challenging way of 'use ammo powers for defenses, casting powers for control'.  New players will have an easier time with the free control of Squad Cryo than the tactical control of Improved Cryo.

Modifié par Simbacca, 15 décembre 2010 - 08:25 .

[Tony Gunslinger]

Simbacca wrote...

Tony Gunslinger wrote...

...It's pretty random so I can't really "prove" it, I just trust the writers this time (yeah, I'm looking at you, Warp Ammo)

What's wrong with warp ammo?

For the longest time, I believed in what the game said about Warp Ammo: "The damage bonus is doubled against enemies who are being affected by biotic powers."
Naturally, I interpreted that as ALL biotic powers. <_<

Simbacca wrote...
Yes but I still doubt the actually freezing speed is any different.  Yes, Improved increases the change of freeze per shot more (which would only be noticable on Assault Rifles and SMGs since Heavy Pistols, Shotguns, and Snipers always freeze with with 1pt Cryo Ammo), but I still believe the freezing animation is the same length across the board.  I recently tried out Deep Cryo Blast on my Engineer in hopes that it might freeze quicker than Full Cryo Blast but alas, it seemed exactly the same to me.  Will have to test with Improved Cryo vs Squad Cryo vs 1pt Cryo Ammo.

Also that thread is more for beginners to insanity, which is why it leans so heavily on the 'use casting powers for defenses, ammo powers for control' over the also viable though slightly more challenging way of 'use ammo powers for defenses, casting powers for control'.  New players will have an easier time with the free control of Squad Cryo than the tactical control of Improved Cryo.

This is what I wrote:

Tony Gunslinger wrote...
I've tested it and I'm pretty sure Improved Cryo freezes faster. If you're able to, reset all your skill points and go to Mordin's LM. Once you're at the beginning, save, and test out both versions on the klixens. It took about 3 seconds for the Squad version fully freeze a klixen, while it took about 2 seconds with the Improved. The freezing speed will also depend on enemy types; lesser goons freeze faster than tougher humans, etc.

I've only fired single shots for testing. The instant I fired one Mattock shot at a stripped klixen, I started counting. I stopped counting when the klixen completely stops moving. The difference was definately noticeable, about one second apart. I've done this repeatedly to make sure. Unfortunately I can't record anything this week, but you can test it out yourself and verfiy when you can.

Edits: arrrhgh stupid formatting

Modifié par Tony Gunslinger, 15 décembre 2010 - 09:46 .

[Simbacca]

@Tony: my bad, i forgot about your klixen test

[Tony Gunslinger]

No worries. It's probably a good idea to record it and do a real frame-by-frame analysis anyways. I've been only counting in my head so it's not exactly one second. I can probably get the recorder next week.

[jwalker]

Damn, this was boring....

I loaded a save with my Infiltrator and make some tests with those Klixen in Mordin's LM
I recorded the footage with Fraps at 30 fps

( S ) = Squad Cryo ammo
( I ) = Improved Cryo ammo

I count frames when the shot is made until the bug completely stops moving

So, at 30 fps everything is between 48 frames ( 1.6 seconds )  and 68 frames ( 2.26 seconds )  if my math is good.

One shot only
Widow ( I )............. 54
Widow ( S )............. 59
GPS ( I )............... 66
GPS ( S )............... 51
Charged up GPS ( I ).... 59
Charged up GPS ( S ).... 51
Scimitar ( I ).......... 57
Scimitar ( S ).......... 61
Carnifex ( I ).......... 61
Carnifex ( S ).......... 48

Shoot until freezed
Locust ( I )............ 50
Locust ( S )............ 61
Tempest ( I )........... 53
Tempest ( S )........... 62
Shuriken ( I ).......... 55
Shuriken ( S ).......... 68
Predator ( I ).......... 63
Predator ( S ).......... 57

I'm not sure what to make of it, but I get the impression doesn't really matter which version of cryo ammo regarding freezin speed. Didn't test the other weapons because I got bored.

[Bozorgmehr]

I'll see what I can do this weekend Tony - it sounds interesting enough to investigate.

@ Simbacca; I'll check Cryo Blast also - just to be sure.
I had the same experience you've had - no difference in freezing speed (Deep vs Full Cryo Blast).
If Improved Cryo Ammo does freeze targets faster I think it should be added to your topic, it are only a few words and every tenth of a second can mean the difference between life and death on Insanity
NS is awesome, better than Cryo Blast to (instantly) disable enemies but Cryo Blast works fine up close (and Mordin's is instacast and on a 4.5 base cd only); you can use it against enemies behind cover; at range you can cast it before you've stripped defenses entirely - be sure to complete stripping before it hits!); and it can freeze multiple enemies (it has a 1.2 m radius by default) - a great power even rank 1.

[edit] never mind jwalker's testing doesn't show any real difference - thanks for testing on such short notice:wizard:

Modifié par Bozorgmehr, 15 décembre 2010 - 11:40 .

[SonofMacPhisto]

Awesome stuff jwalker, thanks for that.

Considering that you've got two more guns shooting with Squad Cryo Ammo, do we think that makes up the difference in freezing speed?

Edit response to Boro's edit: It seemed liked a difference to me.  Maybe I'm reading it wrong, is that not a significant difference?  i r n00b

Modifié par SonofMacPhisto, 16 décembre 2010 - 12:03 .

[Tony Gunslinger]

I'm surprised at the variation of the frames, and your data doesn't indicate that Improved is any faster than Squad. I'm going to hit up the game later tonite and try it again. I haven't done that test in a while.

Thanks alot for doing that, jwalker. I've done it before so I know it's a bit tedious .

[jwalker]

The thing is, we know little how the "freezes targets more frequently" in improved version works.

I know the 'start' of the frame count is accurate, since is very clear when Shepard takes the shot. I may have messed up some frames deciding when the big bugs stops, but I don't think my numbers are that off.

Probably a different target might help, like krogan, because they start to fall to the ground when they are completly frozen.

[ryoldschool]

jwalker wrote...

Damn, this was boring....

I loaded a save with my Infiltrator and make some tests with those Klixen in Mordin's LM
I recorded the footage with Fraps at 30 fps

( S ) = Squad Cryo ammo
( I ) = Improved Cryo ammo

I count frames when the shot is made until the bug completely stops moving

So, at 30 fps everything is between 48 frames ( 1.6 seconds )  and 68 frames ( 2.26 seconds )  if my math is good.

One shot only
Widow ( I )............. 54
Widow ( S )............. 59
GPS ( I )............... 66
GPS ( S )............... 51
Charged up GPS ( I ).... 59
Charged up GPS ( S ).... 51
Scimitar ( I ).......... 57
Scimitar ( S ).......... 61
Carnifex ( I ).......... 61
Carnifex ( S ).......... 48

Shoot until freezed
Locust ( I )............ 50
Locust ( S )............ 61
Tempest ( I )........... 53
Tempest ( S )........... 62
Shuriken ( I ).......... 55
Shuriken ( S ).......... 68
Predator ( I ).......... 63
Predator ( S ).......... 57

I'm not sure what to make of it, but I get the impression doesn't really matter which version of cryo ammo regarding freezin speed. Didn't test the other weapons because I got bored.

jwalker, thanks for doing the boring work    Is the one shot after the armor is removed, or is it one shot period?  I did not know you could freeze someone that has armor still up with non-shotgun with one shot.

[jwalker]

Sorry, I forgot to mention it.

Previously to any shooting, I completely removed the Klixen's armor with Mordin's Incineration Blast.

Also, since I was under the impression damage had to do something with the freezin speed, I use the Scimitar and GPS at point blank range. Didn't see any significant difference.

Edit to add:
Since I was playing an Infiltrator, I had to use the Widow as a shotgun too, otherwise the dilation time thingy would have given bad results

Modifié par jwalker, 16 décembre 2010 - 08:59 .

[Tony Gunslinger]

Update: I now officially declare [ICA] as Improved Cryo Ammo and [SCA] as the Squad version to make writing this stuff easier. :D

Sorry for the delay, the holidays are keeping me busy right now. I've done a longer test last night and I think I know why there were variations in jwalker's test. When you shoot a klixen that is trying to get up, the freezing speed is quicker, and it's the same speed no matter which version. When I noticed this and tried to wait until the klixen fully gets up to shoot, ICA was generally about 1/2 to 1 second faster, but not always. So this type of test is inconclusive. I believe freezing speed may have more variables than anticipated. Off the top of my head, any of these factors may contribute to freezing speed:

- Ragdoll bonus
- Headshot vs bodyshot vs point blank range
- Amount of damage, which may also be affected by Cloaking, AR
- Enemy's current state of animation (ready to attack, staggering, running for cover, casting a power, etc)
- Enemy's total health
- Enemy's remaining health

So as of now, I can't say that ICA is faster because there is no concrete evidence to support this. Even if it was faster, the difference may be very small, and the circumstances to make it happen is very hard to control. I'll update this in the guide. When there is time, I'll try to come up with a more controlled testing scenario, such a shooting various different enemies, as well as testing the freezing speed of SCA on your squadmate's guns only.

Modifié par Tony Gunslinger, 18 décembre 2010 - 02:08 .

[ScroguBlitzen]

Seems fair for the time being to conclude that the only advantage of ICA vs SCA is the extra 2 seconds. What about the supposed increased freezing chance? Has anyone run tests on that? Anecdotally, it seems like pistols, mattock and viper always freeze with a single bullet even with 1 point in cryo.

[cpanda]

I have tried out this build on my hardcore playthrough and am currently doing my first insanity run. And yes the freeze speed is definitely faster. You can basically hit an enemy who has no defenses and forget about them for a while. Or get a 2 head shot kill XD.



This build has proved to be challenging and rewarding but I was thinking of changing my bonus power to domination and maxing it and ai hacking both for area. I found that I have no problem striping defenses with the viper and the ar so get 1 point in cyro and become a full agent with the longer cloak and shorter cooldown.

[Tony Gunslinger]

cpanda wrote...
I have tried out this build on my hardcore playthrough and am currently doing my first insanity run. And yes the freeze speed is definitely faster. You can basically hit an enemy who has no defenses and forget about them for a while. Or get a 2 head shot kill XD.

This build has proved to be challenging and rewarding but I was thinking of changing my bonus power to domination and maxing it and ai hacking both for area. I found that I have no problem striping defenses with the viper and the ar so get 1 point in cyro and become a full agent with the longer cloak and shorter cooldown.

Unless there is real proof, it's safe to assume that ICA's only practical advantage is its longer duration, but I agree, there is still something different about ICA whenever I use it . Some enemies do seem to freeze faster. Placebo effect kicking in? Maybe...

ScroguBlitzen wrote...
Seems fair for the time being to conclude that the only advantage of ICA vs SCA is the extra 2 seconds. What about the supposed increased freezing chance? Has anyone run tests on that? Anecdotally, it seems like pistols, mattock and viper always freeze with a single bullet even with 1 point in cryo.

I don't think the Predator freezes as often as the Carni and Phalanx. In any case, I can see why chance to freeze affects your build more than mine since you're using the Scimitar and it's still a slow-firing weapon. I assume that it works the same as inferno ammo, where if one pellet triggers panic then all pellets would as well. It's like flipping 8 coins, and as long as one of them turns up heads, you win.

Modifié par Tony Gunslinger, 20 décembre 2010 - 08:17 .

[Tony Gunslinger]

Added a couple of videos:

Miranda's Loyalty

Heretic Station

Modifié par Tony Gunslinger, 29 décembre 2010 - 08:00 .

[jwalker]

Nice vids, Tony!



Out of curiosity, you don't like the Tempest for Geth missions ? I find that weapon extremely effective there...

[Tony Gunslinger]

You know, I've never had as good of a result as others have had with the Tempest. I did try a comparison when shooting at a Geth Hunter at point blank range, and the shield and health drops slower with the Tempest than with the Shuriken. The Tempest may beat out the Shuriken because the Tempest doesn't need to reload as much, but the time for me to empty a Shuriken clip and reload is around the same time I've recovered from CD to throw an FB or another Cloak. With the Tempest, I find that I have to commit to its longer shooting time in order to surpass one clip of the Shuriken's damage, and I'd rather use a power sooner instead. The Shuriken is also accurate enough to hit things 5+ meters away.

[Praetor Knight]

Tony Gunslinger wrote...

You know, I've never had as good of a result as others have had with the Tempest. I did try a comparison when shooting at a Geth Hunter at point blank range, and the shield and health drops slower with the Tempest than with the Shuriken. The Tempest may beat out the Shuriken because the Tempest doesn't need to reload as much, but the time for me to empty a Shuriken clip and reload is around the same time I've recovered from CD to throw an FB or another Cloak. With the Tempest, I find that I have to commit to its longer shooting time in order to surpass one clip of the Shuriken's damage, and I'd rather use a power sooner instead. The Shuriken is also accurate enough to hit things 5+ meters away.

Feathering the trigger on the Shuriken is awesome, when I figured that out it became a harder choice between it and the Locust.

I've had trouble using the Tempest also, and have kept the Locust on the Squad, but I guess that's just a play style preference on both accounts.

[Bozorgmehr]

It's great to see someone using Shuriken although most people argue the other SMGs are 'better' Tony shows the Shuriken isn't a bad weapon at all!

Great vids, two of my favorite LMs!

I gave my NG+ Claymore Engineer Flashbang bonus power, but it just doesn't work the (excellent) way you use it in your vids. I'm still ignorant what it is I'm doing wrong, but I'm determined and figure it out some day (I'll hope). Thanks for sharing these videos, I think I need to study them again

[Sailears]

It's both good and bad that the shuriken, mattock and viper have excellent damage output when rapid tapping because doing it is so uncomfortable. I'd feel better burst firing the avenger, if that was acutally useful.

[ScroguBlitzen]

Tony Gunslinger wrote...

Added a couple of videos:

Miranda's Loyalty

Heretic Station

Nice vids.  Excellent use of Flashbang on Miranda's especially.

Also, what exactly is meant by "feathering the trigger" on the shuriken?  Is that just controlling your burst to maintain a reasonable accuracy?