248 réponses à ce sujet

[Sarah1281]

Finding the relatives is easy, just go to the Gnawed Noble Tavern. Ceorlic will always side with Loghain no matter what you do. Anora isn't trying to pull a coup, she's trying to save her father and can you blame her for not being thrilled he's talking about killing her father? Besides, why are you so upset if you planned on betraying her first? Alistair can't throw your Warden in jail. He does agree to lock up Anora for not swearing fealty. If you want to marry Alistair, you have to kill him right away instead of agreeing with Riordan and then announce you'll rule by Alistair's side. And Loghain cannot be put on trial. He is either executed on the spot or made a Warden and you can't be queen with Alistair if you do the latter.

[Sarah1281]

Having seen your edits, let me add that Loghain still has to be killed or made a Warden but Anora and Alistair can still marry. If Alistair is hardened and you spare Loghain then you can talk him into marrying her anyway but he's pissed and leaves the party. If you kill Loghain, make sure Alistair does not personally do it (and that means don't let him duel Loghain) or Anora won't marry him but if you kill him then unhardened or hardened Alistair will agree to marry Anora.

[metatheurgist]

Dragon Age wiki. See if that answers your questions, just be careful you don't spoil yourself.

[errant_knight]

I'd say that Loghain's execution was just in the medieval context, at least in my opinion. You won the duel, so you had the choice of executing him for his crimes or making him a warden as a substitute punishment, and that's an idea that offends Alistair greatly. He believes being a warden is an honor, and is absolutely not an appropriate thing to do with the man he holds responsible for the deaths of Ferelden's wardens, as well as the death of the king. The duel was the trial.

Modifié par errant_knight, 21 novembre 2010 - 06:02 .

[Gilsa]

Errant knight summarized it nicely. If you had lost the debate, Loghain would have called for your execution along with your crew for being traitors. So it goes both ways. A lot of people feel it's should have been a duel to settle an argument, not to the death, but it is what it is.



And Anora won't marry the man that killed her father. You have to kill Loghain yourself if you want her to still marry Alistair.

[Zjarcal]

Ah, the beauty of having a completely unspoiled reaction to the Landsmeet. I miss that feeling.

[KnightofPhoenix]

Hanz54321 wrote...
Edit:  Knight of Phoenix is right, by the way.  He just has a superior grasp on politics, human motivation, and Dragon Age Lore.  Sarah does too, but she's a softer touch.

Why thank you
And yes, Sarah and I being experts on Orzammar politics of all places, we kind of have to know about this sort of thing.

Modifié par KnightofPhoenix, 21 novembre 2010 - 06:22 .

[nos_astra]

Glaucon wrote...
I suppose he's slightly monochromatic in his world view too.

When it comes to Loghain and the Wardens, yes, very much.

[Face of Evil]

Hanz54321 wrote...

 If you really want your head to spin, talk to Knight of Phoenix sometime. He'll explain to you how Arl Eamon is actually the power hungry throne grabber, Loghain actually is a good guy who gets twisted in his quest to protect Fereldan (like Anakin wanted to bring peace to the galaxy), etc. All the characters are not simple "good guys" or "bad guys". The only character who is clearly evil is Rendon Howe (why else get Tim Curry?).

PFFFT! Bull***! While I agree that Loghain was a good man at one time who just wanted the best for Ferelden — which makes me hate him all the more, cementing in my mind the certainty that Loghain deserves to die for his crimes — the theory that Arl Eamon is power-hungry is complete bunk, a gross over-simplification of Eamon's motivations.

But you know, that's partly what makes this a great game: two people can come up with completely different interpretations of the same characters.

Modifié par Face of Evil, 21 novembre 2010 - 10:52 .

[Persephone]

Face of Evil wrote...

Hanz54321 wrote...

 If you really want your head to spin, talk to Knight of Phoenix sometime. He'll explain to you how Arl Eamon is actually the power hungry throne grabber, Loghain actually is a good guy who gets twisted in his quest to protect Fereldan (like Anakin wanted to bring peace to the galaxy), etc. All the characters are not simple "good guys" or "bad guys". The only character who is clearly evil is Rendon Howe (why else get Tim Curry?).

PFFFT! Bull***! While I agree that Loghain was a good man at one time who just wanted the best for Ferelden — which makes me hate him all the more, cementing in my mind the certainty that Loghain deserves to die for his crimes — the theory that Arl Eamon is power-hungry is complete bunk, a gross over-simplification of Eamon's motivations.

But you know, that's partly what makes this a great game: two people can come up with completely different interpretations of the same characters.

Loghain aside, as I really DO NOT want this to turn into another Loghain thread: There is enough evidence of Eamon's ambitions. He wants power as much as the other nobles do, which is why he was using Alistair, the boy he has neglected before to appease his petty wife. He even admits that unless Alistair agrees to be king, he'll have to support Loghain. He urges King Cailan to put aside his loyal and competent wife. His concerned guardiam act doesn't fool me for a moment. Just watch how he reacts if you bring him the happy news that you convinced Alistair and Anora to marry!

[nos_astra]

Anora's ambitions: GOOD.
Loghain's ambitions: Let's not go there.
Eamon's ambitions: EVIL.

Eamon is not related to Alistair and while the boy is the son of a king, said king also refused to recognize him and obviously couldn't be bothered to care. I take it that Alistair was not treated indecently for an unrecognized bastard. I understand that Alistair never had a family and that it makes him vulnerable, as he is easily used and manipulated by everyone who shows him affection. He lived the life of a commoner and was mostly fine with it, if it wasn't for the knowledge that his father was the king.

I like Eamon as a character, he's a traditonalist, conservative politician. Unlike Loghain and Anora he's more willing to put his plans aside for the sake of Ferelden. Funny, if you think of it.

Modifié par klarabella, 21 novembre 2010 - 12:03 .

[Rykoth]

And that is why I love my Dalish. Screw the shems and their noble politics



Let's see... this is like, playthrough 5 for me, about to enter the Landsmeet... oh right, this is my first non human noble.. (I'm a perfectionist, I kept doing human noble because I felt like I was missing something)

[Persephone]

klarabella wrote...

Anora's ambitions: GOOD.
Loghain's ambitions: Let's not go there.
Eamon's ambitions: EVIL.

Eamon is not related to Alistair and while the boy is the son of a king, said king also refused to recognize him and obviously couldn't be bothered to care. I take it that Alistair was not treated indecently for an unrecognized bastard. I understand that Alistair never had a family and that it makes him vulnerable, as he is easily used and manipulated by everyone who shows him affection. He lived the life of a commoner and was mostly fine with it, if it wasn't for the knowledge that his father was the king.

I like Eamon as a character, he's a traditonalist, conservative politician. Unlike Loghain and Anora he's more willing to put his plans aside for the sake of Ferelden. Funny, if you think of it.

I do not mind the ambition. I mind that he is being dishonest about it. That he is manipulating and using an already psychologically scarred young man as well as a probably equally psychologically scarred young Warden to achieve his goal while acting like a concerned guardian. No such pretense from Anora. She only betrays you if you betray her first. As for Loghain, I do not see him as ambitious. To Eamon, blood matters over ability, even proven ability. That mentality led to insane rulers and utterly horrific inbreeding amongst the royal houses in Europe. Not something I'll support. Anora gets the crown in my playthroughs, no matter if her Dad survives the Landsmeet.

[Wulfram]

Eamon doesn't put forward his own claim to the throne, he accepts the outcome of the landsmeet even if it doesn't turn out as he wishes and he steps aside gracefully if his services as Chancellor aren't needed.



If he's ambitious, it is in a restrained and sensible way.

[nos_astra]

Without Maric recognizing him as his son officially, Alistair was a commoner. That's the point for an unrecognized bastard. Alistair is a commoner and is supposed to be known as the child of a servant, and he's an orphan.

I'm sure he had a wet nurse and a nanny up to the point where he was old enough to be prepared for a life as a commoner, which basically means he needed someone he could follow around, probably a stablehand.

At some time the rumour spread that he was Eamons son, because he obviously treated the boy better than was usual for a mere servant. The rumour was replaced with the rumour of Alistair being the king's son and he was placed with the Chantry and trained to become a templar. I'm fairly sure this was regarded to be a very good career and no one would have thought this was ill treatment. Education and military training, you have a roof over your head and you never go hungry, perfect for a commoner. The lyrium addiction is a Chantry secret, so Eamon probably doesn't know that.

You shouldn't judge this from a modern POV. May favourite answer when Alistair tells the Warden about his childhood is: "You had it better than most orphans." Because I think that's very likely and I don't want him to wallow in self-pity (which he normally doesn't).

Eamon is not too subtle about being Alistair's advisor and when things don't go his way, he simply abides by what the Warden decides. His ambitions don't override his common sense and responsibility. That's more one can say of Anora or Loghain.
I don't agree with Eamon (I don't like putting Alistair on the throne, unless married to Anora), but I think he's a well-rounded character, one of the few who makes sense in a supposedly gritty, dark fantasy setting without being arrogant. I can totally see him being the voice of reason in the landsmeet, one you can occasionally convince and get on your side.

Teagan pales in comparison, he's too bland to be interesting. To be honest, I could see him being the eternal bachelor, who charms beautiful woman but doesn't want to be tied to one. The second son of a noble who was given Rainesfere for the sake of his reputation, where he can't fail too badly. He could be completely unpolitical for all we know.

Modifié par klarabella, 21 novembre 2010 - 01:54 .

[Wulfram]

Taegan is the one who stood up to Loghain after Ostagar, and probably the one who convinced Eamon to stand up to Loghain, so I don't think he's unpolitical.

[nos_astra]

Wulfram wrote...
Taegan is the one who stood up to Loghain after Ostagar, and probably the one who convinced Eamon to stand up to Loghain, so I don't think he's unpolitical.

Ah, true. Eamon is comatose at this point and Teagan has to replace him.

We don't know if this is the first time he steps up, though.

[Sarah1281]

Wulfram wrote...

Eamon doesn't put forward his own claim to the throne, he accepts the outcome of the landsmeet even if it doesn't turn out as he wishes and he steps aside gracefully if his services as Chancellor aren't needed.

If he's ambitious, it is in a restrained and sensible way.

Eamon outright tells you he's not putting himself forward because 'I'm the brother of the wife of the previous king's queen consort mother' is even sketchier than 'I'm the previous king's queen consort' and he knows he can make a better case with 'I'm the previous king's half-brother and the son of Maric the Savior.' Besides, his son is a mage and if he has another child then for all he knows, that will be a mage as well (and the dead!Connor ending reveals that Rowan is a mage) and mages can't inherit titles.

He accepts the outcome of the Landsmeet once he has personally invested the power to decide in you as he expects you to support Alistair. If you don't, what's he supposed to do? Claim that he wants back the power he just gave you because you were, as he implied you were when he said Anora shouldn't decide the throne, actually objective? How well would that go over with anybody? He already tries to get Alistair to accept a nomination the Landsmeet didn't give him the minute Loghain's dead even if he knows Alistair is suppose to marry Anora.

I also don't know what you expect him to be able to do if Anora is queen and thus would probably rather see Ceorlic chancellor than the man who tried so hard to keep her off the throne or if Alistair/Anora has appointed you chancellor in front of everybody for being the Hero of Ferelden. It's not so much that he's 'gracefully stepping aside' as 'Eamon is not a complete idiot and therefore recognizes that there is nothing he can do' which says nothing about his ambition being restrained or sensible.

[ejoslin]

I wanted to point out, the one guy who threw in with Loghain ALWAYS throws in with him. The bald guy never sides with the warden.

[Liliandra Nadiar]

Yes, there is one who will always side with Loghain, and one who will always side with the Wardens. It's the remaining sevenish votes you're actually working toward. Anora, the Chantry, Alfstanna, Wulff, Vaughun (or not if he's dead), the Crow's noble, Sighard, the unnamed fool in the crowd at the end.