248 réponses à ce sujet

[Wulfram]

Sarah1281 wrote...
 It's not so much that he's 'gracefully stepping aside' as 'Eamon is not a complete idiot and therefore recognizes that there is nothing he can do' which says nothing about his ambition being restrained or sensible.

Well, contrast the way Eamon acts with Loghain's tantrum, Bhelen's attempt to massacre half the Assembly and Anora's apparent preference to die rather than acknowledge that she's not the queen any more.

Meanwhile all the supposed evidence of his ambition can be equally well explained by his believing that Alistair is the rightful King, and his being willing to serve his country.

[errant_knight]

Glaucon wrote...

Thanks for the response people. It helped put things into perspective, I guess I just got a little emotional about it? I'd invested allot of effort into having things my way so it all came as a bit of a shock. To answer some of the points made:

I figured Loghain was a good general/man once so maybe he could be saved so that's why I went for the joining bait. Anora's coup-de ta was her undermining of Alistair after the fight despite her agreement to marry him. Her words were spoken in a public forum so I didn't take kindly to what appeared to be a double-cross. I had expected Alistair to be persuaded that my choices were correct but I suppose he's slightly monochromatic in his world view too. Oh well... next time will be better.

Thanks all.

You're not the first to be blindsided by the Landsmeet.

[KnightofPhoenix]

Wulfram wrote...
Well, contrast the way Eamon acts with Loghain's tantrum, Bhelen's attempt to massacre half the Assembly and Anora's apparent preference to die rather than acknowledge that she's not the queen any more.

Eamon starts an onslaught when his beloved traditional Landsmeet votes against him and empowers Loghain.
And Anora thinks she is going to die anyhow, thus still demands her throne. She didn't know Alistair would emprison her (and she says so). 

And for the record, I never said Eamon was "evil", or his ambitions were bad. I respect Eamon quite a bit. Just thought I would say this, because I might have been misunderstood, even though I didn't say anything.

[ejoslin]

Heh, yeh, I think the landsmeet, for anyone their first playthrough, if they haven't read spoilers especially, is a major shock. I certainly didn't expect anything that happened to happen.

Edit: As much as it pissed me off, i absolutely loved it as well!  My warden was not all powerful and manipulative.

Modifié par ejoslin, 21 novembre 2010 - 05:38 .

[nos_astra]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...
Eamon starts an onslaught when his beloved traditional Landsmeet votes against him and empowers Loghain.

I thought the toolset revealed that they were just defending themselves because Loghain ordered their death?

[KnightofPhoenix]

klarabella wrote...

KnightofPhoenix wrote...
Eamon starts an onslaught when his beloved traditional Landsmeet votes against him and empowers Loghain.

I thought the toolset revealed that they were just defending themselves because Loghain ordered their death?

It was within his rights to order their execution, he was just confirmed regent and no one opposed him.

Just like it's seemingly perfecty legal for someone to execute Loghain even though the duel specified that it was till one party yields. So is it perfectly ok for Loghain to execute his opponents when the Landsmeet voted for him.

Eamon, instead of calling for a general massacre, should have requested a duel.

[nos_astra]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...
It was within his rights to order their execution, he was just confirmed regent and no one opposed him.

Just like it's seemingly perfecty legal for someone to execute Loghain even though the duel specified that it was till one party yields. So is it perfectly ok for Loghain to execute his opponents when the Landsmeet voted for him.

I didn't say it was illegal (well, sometimes it kinda is as Loghain will try to kill you even if the Landsmeet is tied), it's just terribly inconvenient for the player ... and Ferelden.

KnightofPhoenix wrote...
Eamon, instead of calling for a general massacre, should have requested a duel.

He simply says: "This bodes ill for us ...To arms!" The toolset says they are defending themselves.

And of course this is perfectly in line with Eamon's main goal: Depose Loghain!
He won't give up before Loghain is removed as regent. The moment this is accomplished, he's willing to accept whatever is decided. No wait, once he tries to gently push Alistair on the throne, when he says: "So it is decided, Alistair will take his father's throne."

Modifié par klarabella, 21 novembre 2010 - 05:59 .

[Addai]

Wulfram wrote...

Taegan is the one who stood up to Loghain after Ostagar, and probably the one who convinced Eamon to stand up to Loghain, so I don't think he's unpolitical.

I believe his toolset description actually calls him unpolitical, however.  He was filling in for Eamon because he had to.

[nos_astra]

Addai67 wrote...

Wulfram wrote...
Taegan is the one who stood up to Loghain after Ostagar, and probably the one who convinced Eamon to stand up to Loghain, so I don't think he's unpolitical.

I believe his toolset description actually calls him unpolitical, however.  He was filling in for Eamon because he had to.

Really?

That was my guess and I never read his toolset description.

[KnightofPhoenix]

klarabella wrote...
I didn't say it was illegal (well, sometimes it kinda is as Loghain will try to kill you even if the Landsmeet is tied), it's just terribly inconvenient for the player ... and Ferelden.

Sure.
Loghain probably thinks that letting you live is also inconvenient.

I am just pointing out Eamon's hypocracy. He was just praising Ferelden tradition, up until they vote against him.
Of course, he should stand against the Landsmeet at that point. But it makes his speech about the sanctity of tradition to be meeh.

He simply says: "This bodes ill for us ...To arms!" The toolset says they are defending themselves.

And of course this is perfectly in line with Eamon's main goal: Depose Loghain!
He won't give up before Loghain is removed as regent. The moment this is accomplished, he's willing to accept whatever is decided. No wait, once he tries to gently push Alistair on the throne, when he says: "So it is decided, Alistair will take his father's throne."

But we don't see Loghain's men making any move in the game.
And even if they did, Eamon could have screamed : "WAIT! I challenge the vote with a duel!"
I really doubt he didn't know about the duel thing and how that is the best way to settle disputes....

Instead, he tries to pull off a coup D'Etat.

Modifié par KnightofPhoenix, 21 novembre 2010 - 06:06 .

[BHRamsay]

I've said it before and will say it again.... (with no small amount of humor) -- To avoid Anora's tepid oratory at Denherim Gate -- Loghain MUST die

[nos_astra]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...
But we don't see Loghain's men making any move in the game.

And that's supposed to say anything? We don't see any evidence that Orlais is a threat greater than the Darkspawn in the south, too.

[Persephone]

klarabella wrote...
And of course this is perfectly in line with Eamon's main goal: Depose Loghain!
He won't give up before Loghain is removed as regent. The moment this is accomplished, he's willing to accept whatever is decided. No wait, once he tries to gently push Alistair on the throne, when he says: "So it is decided, Alistair will take his father's throne."

Even illegally, given that he is a traditionalist? Makes him no better than Loghain who also refuses to bow to the Landsmeet. Gently? The way he say that, it's a statement, not a possibility. And he says it, even if it has been settled that Anora & Alistair will rule together. Conniving, no?

[Persephone]

BHRamsay wrote...

I've said it before and will say it again.... (with no small amount of humor) -- To avoid Anora's tepid oratory at Denherim Gate -- Loghain MUST die

I actually like her giving the speech. But her father giving it would have been more epic than Alistair & Anora combined.

[KnightofPhoenix]

klarabella wrote...

KnightofPhoenix wrote...
But we don't see Loghain's men making any move in the game.

And that's supposed to say anything? We don't see any evidence that Orlais is a threat greater than the Darkspawn in the south, too.

One is a military-political-strategic concern, based on the current balance of power, recent history between the two countries, ignorance of their motives, and an army at the border that didn't turn around when they were told they were not welcome and instead just camped there.

That is a tad different from a Landsmeet, where we do not see Loghain's men charging at you, giving Eamon ample of time to request for a duel instead of calling to arms and starting a general massacre.

[nos_astra]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...
That is a tad different from a Landsmeet, where we do not see Loghain's men charging at you, giving Eamon ample of time to request for a duel instead of calling to arms and starting a general massacre.

But we can read it in the toolset voiceover notes.

[KnightofPhoenix]

klarabella wrote...

KnightofPhoenix wrote...
That is a tad different from a Landsmeet, where we do not see Loghain's men charging at you, giving Eamon ample of time to request for a duel instead of calling to arms and starting a general massacre.

But we can read it in the toolset voiceover notes.

I thought the toolset also had some outdated info.

Nevermind, even then, Eamon had time to call for a duel. He didn't.
He was just saying that Ferelden traditions must not be sacrificed to protect the country, and he is doing just that by going against the Landsmeet that voted against him.
I don't blame him for being a hypocrit, but he's still a hypocrit.

[sylvanaerie]

Meh you can also make Loghain attack the Landsmeet in an attempted coup as well when he loses. I wish there were an option to call a duel when you lose but tbh I like the pandemonium of an all out drag out fight in the Landsmeet. Its a lot more exciting than some boring old duel, you can insult Loghain's honor when its over and you get to see characters like Bann Alfstanna on the floor fighting in support of you.

Perhaps Eamon knew with Loghain calling for his, Alistair's and the Warden's head, he wasn't going to just do a 'duel' to satisfy honor at this point. Do you HONESTLY believe Loghain would agree to fighting someone half his age and who has been fighting for the past year (whereas Loghain hasn't been fighting any battles for 30 years now with the exception of Ostagar) at that point?

IMO at the point you lose the Landsmeet, and he orders you to be removed and beheaded, it's not a 'duel' him situation, it's a fight for your freaking life situation.

[KnightofPhoenix]

sylvanaerie wrote...

Meh you can also make Loghain attack the Landsmeet in an attempted coup as well when he loses.

He doesn't attack the Landsmeet, he calls for a duel. The fighting only starts if your character initiates it (the option included [attack] if I remember correctly).

And it's irrelevent to the discussion. Loghain never claimed that traditions must not be sacrificed to protect the country.

sylvanaerie wrote...
IMO at the point you lose the Landsmeet, and he orders you to be removed and beheaded, it's not a 'duel' him situation, it's a fight for your freaking life situation.

You could have still requested a duel to overturn the decision of the Landsmeet and avoid a needless massacre.

Modifié par KnightofPhoenix, 21 novembre 2010 - 07:11 .

[Liliandra Nadiar]

Glaucon wrote...

I'm still all-powerful ... naturally ;-P 

Of course your Warden is all-powerful. Regardless of class, Gender, Race or Build, PC Wardens all have the one ability that will assure their victory.

Reload.

As for the other question. No, it shouldn't have any baring. I know my vary first game I had two saves that I made in order to get every ending. It somewhat confused the first warden's 'story' a bit, but I don't really count her as my 'cannon' game anyways, just my first in tester.

[sylvanaerie]

But that isn't an option the game gives your warden when Loghain has just ordered his/her execution. And frankly considering his personality I doubt Loghain would simply agree to it without his hand being forced.

Even Eamon agrees its an option once order is restored. I don't consider fighting if you lose a bad thing because you are fighting for your life.