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[Giggles_Manically]

The Landsmeet is SO easy to win.



The options that work are glaringly easy, and the quests you need pop up right in your face.

I really wish it had been harder or more in depth really because honestly, for all his supposed legend, it dosent take much to win, and put someone else on the throne.

[KnightofPhoenix]

sylvanaerie wrote...

But that isn't an option the game gives your warden when Loghain has just ordered his/her execution. And frankly considering his personality I doubt Loghain would simply agree to it without his hand being forced.

I know it isn't. And it makes me wonder why Eamon didn't do it, instead of calling to arms.
Calling for a duel is traditional. Overturning the Landsmeet by force is not.

sylvanaerie wrote... I don't consider fighting if you lose a bad thing because you are fighting for your life.

I never said it was a bad thing, I said it was hypocritical on Eamon's part to fight against the very traditions he was whining about.

Loghain didn't call for his men to massacre everyone when you say you are going to execute him after the duel. Something to keep in mind.

Modifié par KnightofPhoenix, 21 novembre 2010 - 07:17 .

[sylvanaerie]

At the point Loghain is dead, he's dead, how can he call for a massacre without a head?

The line where you can trigger Loghain to fight is something to the effect of (Attack) "If you want a fight, Loghain, you got one." (I don't feel like opening up the toolset at the moment so if someone else does I will defer to an actual quote) but the line reads like "Loghain's about to attack, bring it".

Admittedly, no one is on their best behavior at the Landsmeet.

[sylvanaerie]

Losing the landsmeet is fun too. But I like to tell Anora, "I won't support you" and then still win it by getting more votes.

[KnightofPhoenix]

sylvanaerie wrote...

At the point Loghain is dead, he's dead, how can he call for a massacre without a head?
 

No, he isn't. He had time to call for his men to slaughter everyone before he is executed, but he accepts his death without doing so.

[sylvanaerie]

And neither does Eamon. If the PC loses the duel to Loghain its "Game Over" meaning you die without further fighting.

The pandemonium at the Landsmeet I don't see as a coup (though one can certainly call it that) I see it as fighting for your life. Loghain certainly doesn't call for a duel if he loses, he simply AGREES to one if the PC says "Let's duel". By the same token you have the option in game of making him attack you instead. Again, I think you fault Eamon for a game mechanic. You can't very well call for a duel from the winner of the Landsmeet, they have no reason to give it to you. Loghain is being given 'his last chance to prove his position' by the PC (who just won the Landsmeet). By the same token you can simply force his hand and make him fight so yes, you can RP that he has "ordered his men to massacre everyone if he loses at the Landsmeet" which is exactly what the battle entails at that point.

I don't fault Loghain for fighting at that point, he's fighting for his life. But by the same token I don't fault Eamon for doing the same.

[CalJones]

What a lot of people don't get is that, when you rescue Anora, she is disguised and tells you why - she is worried for her life. If you blow her cover by telling Cauthrien "I'm here to rescue Anora - look, here she is! *point*" then you're doing exactly what she's asked you not to. So she covers her arse, so to speak. Can't blame her for that, at all.

[Liliandra Nadiar]

To be fair(ish) to her. Eamon more or less rail-roads over any prior plans the moment the duel is over and practically shoves a crown on Alistair's head. Always wanted to kick Eamon in the shin for doing that. Apparently after six playthroughs I still miss the point where the duel was to decide who was in charge and not just for Loghain to step down.

[KnightofPhoenix]

sylvanaerie wrote...

And neither does Eamon. If the PC loses the duel to Loghain its "Game Over" meaning you die without further fighting.

We don't really know what would have happened.
Loghain would have probably called for Eamon's exectution and Eamon would have probably done the same thing again.

sylvanaerie wrote...
Loghain certainly doesn't call for a duel if he loses, he simply AGREES to one if the PC says "Let's duel"..

That's not how I remember it. It's Loghain who asks for a duel, if you don't initiate the fighting. Maybe there was several options, but  I am pretty sure one of them does not have you call for a duel and it's Loghain who requests it.

Anyways, this was all completely besides my point.
The initial post I responded to claimed that Eamon doesn't start a massacre at the Landsmeet when he doesn't get what he wants, which is not true. As such, his claim that tradition should not be sacrificed is hypocritical. That is all.

[sylvanaerie]

But her father tells you Cal that that was all Anora's little game. She was never in any danger from Cauthrian so that's just another lie. She's not covering her own ass she is either (getting the Wardens killed and eliminating them as a threat to her position in the Landsmeet or ingratiating herself into their graces by having them 'rescue' her from her father who wants her dead). At the point she pulls this stunt, Howe is dead and Cauthrian had no orders to kill/capture Anora.

I usually either surrender or as if late have been fighting Cauthrian at that point. I got sick of being called churl and stupid by the woman during the first confrontation in Denerim.

[sylvanaerie]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

sylvanaerie wrote...

And neither does Eamon. If the PC loses the duel to Loghain its "Game Over" meaning you die without further fighting.

We don't really know what would have happened.
Loghain would have probably called for Eamon's exectution and Eamon would have probably done the same thing again.

sylvanaerie wrote...
Loghain certainly doesn't call for a duel if he loses, he simply AGREES to one if the PC says "Let's duel"..

That's not how I remember it. It's Loghain who asks for a duel, if you don't initiate the fighting. Maybe there was several options, but  I am pretty sure one of them does not have you call for a duel and it's Loghain who requests it.

Anyways, this was all completely besides my point.
The initial post I responded to claimed that Eamon doesn't start a massacre at the Landsmeet when he doesn't get what he wants, which is not true. As such, his claim that tradition should not be sacrificed is hypocritical. That is all.

No, he doesn't.  Its duel him or fight him, that's the two options the game gives you at that point.
I think the line reads someething like "Call off your men, Loghain and we will settle this honorably" or (Attack) Bring it!

[Persephone]

sylvanaerie wrote...

But her father tells you Cal that that was all Anora's little game. She was never in any danger from Cauthrian so that's just another lie. She's not covering her own ass she is either (getting the Wardens killed and eliminating them as a threat to her position in the Landsmeet or ingratiating herself into their graces by having them 'rescue' her from her father who wants her dead). At the point she pulls this stunt, Howe is dead and Cauthrian had no orders to kill/capture Anora.
I usually either surrender or as if late have been fighting Cauthrian at that point. I got sick of being called churl and stupid by the woman during the first confrontation in Denerim.

If you have Loghain on Friendly (Bugged in vanilla game) he will tell you that Anora was justified in her fears. As Howe had indeed put the notion forward to kill Anora. (Which Loghain rejected. He would never kill his daughter. But Howe would.) And don't get me started on Cauthrien hate.....I never took her outburst seriously. It was in character.

[Persephone]

sylvanaerie wrote...

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

sylvanaerie wrote...

And neither does Eamon. If the PC loses the duel to Loghain its "Game Over" meaning you die without further fighting.

We don't really know what would have happened.
Loghain would have probably called for Eamon's exectution and Eamon would have probably done the same thing again.

sylvanaerie wrote...
Loghain certainly doesn't call for a duel if he loses, he simply AGREES to one if the PC says "Let's duel"..

That's not how I remember it. It's Loghain who asks for a duel, if you don't initiate the fighting. Maybe there was several options, but  I am pretty sure one of them does not have you call for a duel and it's Loghain who requests it.

Anyways, this was all completely besides my point.
The initial post I responded to claimed that Eamon doesn't start a massacre at the Landsmeet when he doesn't get what he wants, which is not true. As such, his claim that tradition should not be sacrificed is hypocritical. That is all.

No, he doesn't.  Its duel him or fight him, that's the two options the game gives you at that point.
I think the line reads someething like "Call off your men, Loghain and we will settle this honorably" or (Attack) Bring it!

That is correct. The Warden decides whether to start a brawl or suggest a duel.

[KnightofPhoenix]

sylvanaerie wrote...
No, he doesn't.  Its duel him or fight him, that's the two options the game gives you at that point.
I think the line reads someething like "Call off your men, Loghain and we will settle this honorably" or (Attack) Bring it!

Hmm, maybe. I don't know, I forgot.
In any case, Loghain doesn't start fighting until you attack. Considering how limited the options are, we don't really know what Loghain would have done if you didn't attack or call for a duel.

But, I am nto saying Loghain wouldn't do a coup D'etat, he would be perfectly willing to do one. He never claimed Ferelden traditiosn are sacred.  

[sylvanaerie]

Persephone wrote...

sylvanaerie wrote...

But her father tells you Cal that that was all Anora's little game. She was never in any danger from Cauthrian so that's just another lie. She's not covering her own ass she is either (getting the Wardens killed and eliminating them as a threat to her position in the Landsmeet or ingratiating herself into their graces by having them 'rescue' her from her father who wants her dead). At the point she pulls this stunt, Howe is dead and Cauthrian had no orders to kill/capture Anora.
I usually either surrender or as if late have been fighting Cauthrian at that point. I got sick of being called churl and stupid by the woman during the first confrontation in Denerim.

If you have Loghain on Friendly (Bugged in vanilla game) he will tell you that Anora was justified in her fears. As Howe had indeed put the notion forward to kill Anora. (Which Loghain rejected. He would never kill his daughter. But Howe would.) And don't get me started on Cauthrien hate.....I never took her outburst seriously. It was in character.

Howe would have killed her of that I have no doubt but Loghain wouldn't have.  And he certainly wouldn't have ordered Cauthrian to.  I may hate Loghain but I don't believe for any reason he would have killed his daughter.

[sylvanaerie]

So, KoP what you are saying is its alright for Loghain to fight for his life and not Eamon? Loghain didn't call for the duel, the PC does. Which leads me to believe at the point you lose the Landsmeet you don't get that option. It's fight or die. If you lose, the Landsmeet itself calls for the duel NOT Loghain. He doesn't even offer it to you, he just orders your execution (sparking the fight). Once its on the table, Eamon readily agrees to it and to abide by it. Again, I think you blame Eamon for a game mechanic.
If you die in the duel, you can't say Eamon continues to fight or not because its game over. He may accept his loss gracefully as well. We don't know what happens at that point because it isn't shown.
Let me add I DON'T like Eamon either but I don't believe he is the devil he is being painted as.

Modifié par sylvanaerie, 21 novembre 2010 - 08:10 .

[KnightofPhoenix]

sylvanaerie wrote...

So, KoP what you are saying is its alright for Loghain to fight for his life and not Eamon?

No, if you read what I said before, I said I don't blame Eamon for his hypocracy and that he  should have stood against the Landsmeet.
But it still however hypocracy to claim that you cannot sacrifice Ferelden traditions, when he is doing just that.

sylvanaerie wrote...
If you die in the duel, you can't say Eamon continues to fight or not because its game over. He may accept his loss gracefully as well. We don't know what happens at that point because it isn't shown.

Just like we don't know if Loghain would have requested the duel or not if he lost, considering how  our options were limited into either starting a duel or attacking him. If he really wanted to massacre the Landsmeet, he wouldn't have wasted his time ranting, he would have attacked. Which leads me to believe that it is at least possible that he would have requested a duel if we didn't attack him.

sylvanaerie wrote...
Let me add I DON'T like Eamon either but I don't believe he is the devil he is being painted as.

KnightofPhoenix wrote...
And
for the record, I never said Eamon was "evil", or his ambitions were
bad. I respect Eamon quite a bit. Just thought I would say this, because
I might have been misunderstood, even though I didn't say anything.

I said that just one page ago.

Modifié par KnightofPhoenix, 21 novembre 2010 - 08:14 .

[Persephone]

sylvanaerie wrote...

Persephone wrote...

sylvanaerie wrote...

But her father tells you Cal that that was all Anora's little game. She was never in any danger from Cauthrian so that's just another lie. She's not covering her own ass she is either (getting the Wardens killed and eliminating them as a threat to her position in the Landsmeet or ingratiating herself into their graces by having them 'rescue' her from her father who wants her dead). At the point she pulls this stunt, Howe is dead and Cauthrian had no orders to kill/capture Anora.
I usually either surrender or as if late have been fighting Cauthrian at that point. I got sick of being called churl and stupid by the woman during the first confrontation in Denerim.

If you have Loghain on Friendly (Bugged in vanilla game) he will tell you that Anora was justified in her fears. As Howe had indeed put the notion forward to kill Anora. (Which Loghain rejected. He would never kill his daughter. But Howe would.) And don't get me started on Cauthrien hate.....I never took her outburst seriously. It was in character.

Howe would have killed her of that I have no doubt but Loghain wouldn't have.  And he certainly wouldn't have ordered Cauthrian to.  I may hate Loghain but I don't believe for any reason he would have killed his daughter.

He wouldn't. But Howe is a sneaky bastard who knows how to manipulate people. How should Anora know that her father's people weren't in Howe's pocket? 

[sylvanaerie]

Actually we DO know at that point whether Loghain would have called for one because he doesn't call for it, he simply rants at that point. Leading me to believe he isn't in a position to ask for one. Perhaps it isn't a part of Ferelden tradition? I can't argue on that point because I don't know Ferelden laws and have no basis on which to post an argument on that point. Maybe only the winnner (or the Landsmeet itself) can call for a duel of honor at that point, and the loser has the option of either fighting or accepting death gracefully.
But it is IN the game, he doesn't ask for a duel. You can't say "He would have asked for one if he could" because he doesn't at that point, the PC does. And I am not going to blame him for game mechanics, that's simply the only options on the table at that point but at no time in his rant Loghain says "I want to settle this honorably" he just rants and insults everyone at the Landsmeet for not voting his way.
This behavior leads me to believe he really doesn't have an option to call for one at that point unless it's offered to him.
Admittedly no one is on their best behavior at the Landsmeet.
*EDIT* because I remember a line Alfstanna uses "It shall be done in accordance to tradition".  So duels are a tradition but then either Loghain forgot or he didn't have the option to CALL for one only to AGREE to it?

Modifié par sylvanaerie, 21 novembre 2010 - 08:26 .

[sylvanaerie]

Persephone wrote...

sylvanaerie wrote...

Persephone wrote...

sylvanaerie wrote...

But her father tells you Cal that that was all Anora's little game. She was never in any danger from Cauthrian so that's just another lie. She's not covering her own ass she is either (getting the Wardens killed and eliminating them as a threat to her position in the Landsmeet or ingratiating herself into their graces by having them 'rescue' her from her father who wants her dead). At the point she pulls this stunt, Howe is dead and Cauthrian had no orders to kill/capture Anora.
I usually either surrender or as if late have been fighting Cauthrian at that point. I got sick of being called churl and stupid by the woman during the first confrontation in Denerim.

If you have Loghain on Friendly (Bugged in vanilla game) he will tell you that Anora was justified in her fears. As Howe had indeed put the notion forward to kill Anora. (Which Loghain rejected. He would never kill his daughter. But Howe would.) And don't get me started on Cauthrien hate.....I never took her outburst seriously. It was in character.

Howe would have killed her of that I have no doubt but Loghain wouldn't have.  And he certainly wouldn't have ordered Cauthrian to.  I may hate Loghain but I don't believe for any reason he would have killed his daughter.

He wouldn't. But Howe is a sneaky bastard who knows how to manipulate people. How should Anora know that her father's people weren't in Howe's pocket? 

At this point Howe is off the table (he's dead), and Cauthrian even announces the PC and her companions are 'under arrest for the murder of Arl Howe'.  Who is going to pay said men if they do kill her?  She was never in any danger from Cauthrian and Loghain's men.

[Persephone]

sylvanaerie wrote...

Persephone wrote...

sylvanaerie wrote...

Persephone wrote...

sylvanaerie wrote...

But her father tells you Cal that that was all Anora's little game. She was never in any danger from Cauthrian so that's just another lie. She's not covering her own ass she is either (getting the Wardens killed and eliminating them as a threat to her position in the Landsmeet or ingratiating herself into their graces by having them 'rescue' her from her father who wants her dead). At the point she pulls this stunt, Howe is dead and Cauthrian had no orders to kill/capture Anora.
I usually either surrender or as if late have been fighting Cauthrian at that point. I got sick of being called churl and stupid by the woman during the first confrontation in Denerim.

If you have Loghain on Friendly (Bugged in vanilla game) he will tell you that Anora was justified in her fears. As Howe had indeed put the notion forward to kill Anora. (Which Loghain rejected. He would never kill his daughter. But Howe would.) And don't get me started on Cauthrien hate.....I never took her outburst seriously. It was in character.

Howe would have killed her of that I have no doubt but Loghain wouldn't have.  And he certainly wouldn't have ordered Cauthrian to.  I may hate Loghain but I don't believe for any reason he would have killed his daughter.

He wouldn't. But Howe is a sneaky bastard who knows how to manipulate people. How should Anora know that her father's people weren't in Howe's pocket? 

At this point Howe is off the table (he's dead), and Cauthrian even announces the PC and her companions are 'under arrest for the murder of Arl Howe'.  Who is going to pay said men if they do kill her?  She was never in any danger from Cauthrian and Loghain's men.

There is no proof positive either way. To be able to help you, she needs your PC not to blow her cover. Otherwise, to die or not, she has to return to her father.