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[Sarah1281]

Wulfram wrote...

Sarah1281 wrote...

Wulfram wrote...

Sarah1281 wrote...
 you agree not to reveal her

You do no such thing

I feel that it is implied when Anora asks you not to reveal her that you agree not to reveal her. Or does your Warden say nothing and silently plot to throw her under a bus at the first inconvenience? 

Well, all Anora really says is "It's better if I don't get captured by the people you're rescuing me from", a statement of such obviousness that my wardens probably can't think of a sufficiently polite response.

Trying the most promising route to try and get us out alive doesn't really constitute throwing her under a bus.

But this is what Anora says in response to your 'Why are you dressed like that?': Because there are two sorts of people in this house: those loyal to Howe, and those loyal to me. If Howe's people find me, I'll be killed. And my people will insist on escorting me back to the palace... where my father may <emp>also</emp> have me killed.

Obviously, we all know Anora is lying about Loghain wanting her dead. Since the Warden has met Loghain, at most, three times and the last time he's your enemy and threatens you the Warden doesn't have much reason to think that she's lying about this at the time. And really, if Anora's people will take her to Loghain, why wouldn't Loghain's people? You feel that revealing her to Cauthrien is the best way to get everyone out alive and that is why you reveal her. Since it's implied that you agree not to reveal her (and you even say that it's so obvious that your Warden just couldn't think of a polite enough response), you are betraying that agreement. You may have good reasons, but it is still a betrayal.

Anora, knowing Loghain won't kill her but also seeking to avoid her worst-case scenario of missing the Landsmeet and having no chance to win her throne, has very good reason to betray you as well. She knew that if she was shown to be on your side, she would be taken to Loghain and not be allowed to attend the Landsmeet.

[Sarah1281]

Just a quick thought regarding Howe during my run through. I didn't murder him: I point out that he is a parasite to which he tentatively acknowledges but then declares it all irrelevant and signals my impending death. He attacked me.

...So you don't think it is murder when you break into Howe's home and appear heavily armed before him and he preemptively attacks you? Hell, if Howe had managed to kill you I think he'd have a good case for self-defense.



And maybe you could be more specific about how Anora behaves horribly? And we're already discussing how she acts after you betray her first.

[sylvanaerie]

Rather than "horribly" I say Anora acts "politically". It's more morally gray than actual black and white. Certainly I don't admire that kind of behavior but I can't fault her for trying everything she can to keep her throne. She's even stepping over her father's cooling corpse to grab at it (if Alistair doesn't grab it immediately following Loghain's execution). Again, I don't think I can even fault her for that. To be told all her life "you will be queen" to live for that and find only purpose in that one task, at that point what does she have left?

Maybe even her not taking the oath is sort of a death wish of "kill me now I don't want to live if I can't be queen". That Alistair doesn't is part of his personality and game mechanics (*Reason withheld for the sake of OP and not to spoil endings for him). She is even surprised when he won't.

[Ryzaki]

^The problem with that is she doesn't grab the throne if you ask her to marry the man who killed her father.



If she felt so strongly about herself being the best for the country I'd have expected her to go ahead and marry the male PC/Alistair despite what they'd done. Instead she acts just like she accuses Alistair of being, overemotional and illogical.

[KnightofPhoenix]

Ryzaki wrote...
If she felt so strongly about herself being the best for the country I'd have expected her to go ahead and marry the male PC/Alistair despite what they'd done. Instead she acts just like she accuses Alistair of being, overemotional and illogical.

Did anyone tell Alistair to marry Loghain?

Different scenarios here. Anora doesn't want to marry her father's killer, but she doesn't actually call for Alistair's execution if he does kill him and remains a warden as a result. How is that "overemotional"?

[Addai]

Sarah1281 wrote...

And maybe you could be more specific about how Anora behaves horribly? And we're already discussing how she acts after you betray her first.

As others have pointed out, you never agree to hide Anora's identity, so "betray" is a little strong.  She just assumes you'll go along with her, even to the point of torture and death, because that's how Anora sees the world.  Who would not throw themselves into the river to see her queen?    She's the one who under certain dialogue choices makes an unconditional promise to support you in the LM.  Which of course she does not always keep.

As far as I'm concerned, when I walk into that room of Loghain soldiers in what looks verrry much like a setup, all bets are off and it's every woman for herself.  So sure, if Anora throws you under the bus in the LM, that's the game.  I don't have to appreciate her for it.

Modifié par Addai67, 21 novembre 2010 - 10:19 .

[sylvanaerie]

I really disliked my father but I sure as hell wouldn't have married his killer. Regardless of what my PC (or Alistair) thinks about the man, Anora did love him in her own way and won't marry the man who killed her father. I don't fault her for that. I happen to admire her for it in fact. You have to allow the character at least some loyalty to her old man.
Everyone has a breaking point and being expected to smile next to the man who killed Loghain and go to bed with him to try to make an heir. Just how the hell cold do you expect her to be anyway?
*Edit* I can also see her detractors saying "Well, look at that, she doesn't care about her old man, just the throne, she just cozied up to his killer."

Modifié par sylvanaerie, 21 novembre 2010 - 10:22 .

[Sarah1281]

Addai67 wrote...

Sarah1281 wrote...

And maybe you could be more specific about how Anora behaves horribly? And we're already discussing how she acts after you betray her first.

As others have pointed out, you never agree to hide Anora's identity, so "betray" is a little strong.  She just assumes you'll go along with her, even to the point of torture and death, because that's how Anora sees the world.  Who would not throw themselves into the river to see her queen? 

As far as I'm concerned, when I walk into that room of Loghain soldiers in what looks verrry much like a setup, all bets are off and it's every woman for herself.  So sure, if Anora throws you under the bus in the LM, that's the game.  I don't have to appreciate her for it.

I do not feel it is too strong at all. She tells you not to reveal her. You do not agree or disagree thus, as I see it, you implicitly agree. You are faced with what you see as torture and death. You reveal Anora. That is a betrayal. Anora then claims you kidnapped her and leaves. I'm willing to also call that a betrayal but she's not the one who acts against your best interest first.

And saying that all bets are off and it's everyone for themselves really does make it sound like you're betraying her and okay with this. You don't have to like Anora for betraying you after you betray her but that doesn't mean you don't betray her first.

[Addai]

Sarah1281 wrote...

I do not feel it is too strong at all. She tells you not to reveal her. You do not agree or disagree thus, as I see it, you implicitly agree. You are faced with what you see as torture and death. You reveal Anora. That is a betrayal. Anora then claims you kidnapped her and leaves. I'm willing to also call that a betrayal but she's not the one who acts against your best interest first.

And saying that all bets are off and it's everyone for themselves really does make it sound like you're betraying her and okay with this. You don't have to like Anora for betraying you after you betray her but that doesn't mean you don't betray her first.

She sends for you to come rescue her, at considerable risk to yourself.  She could give a flying fig about your best interest.  So why should I care about hers when push comes to shove?  I don't owe her anything.

She doesn't even try to reason with Cauthrien, despite knowing that Loghain will not kill her.  Instead she lies about you, and if it came to it I'm sure she would continue that lie up until the point you are executed.

[Wulfram]

Anora tells you that she doesn't want to be captured. The Warden takes the action they judge is best to stop her being captured. That is not a betrayal,



But I've been quoted in your (excellent) fanfic before on this matter, so I doubt we're going to convince each other.

[Sarah1281]

I am not arguing moral relativity. You feel that you had a good reason to go against Anora. First you (admittedly implied) agreed not to reveal her. You then reveal her. Saying that you will do one thing that is in someone's best interest and then turning around and doing the opposite is the definition of a betrayal. It is not in any way in Anora's best interest for Cauthrien to know she's there because she will be taken to her father and not have her chance to take the throne. It does not matter what might happen if you do not reveal her because even if you would all die had you not revealed her, revealing her is still a betrayal as it is not in her best interest.



I'm not even saying that you are wrong to betray her because you do have a compelling reason to but when she betrays you after you already betrayed her, you getting all indignant about it is the pot calling the kettle black.

[KnightofPhoenix]

Addai67 wrote...
She doesn't even try to reason with Cauthrien, despite knowing that Loghain will not kill her.  Instead she lies about you, and if it came to it I'm sure she would continue that lie up until the point you are executed.

Does she really know that Loghain will not kill her once it's revealed that she is plotting against him behind his back?
I doubt he would kill her, but I am not so sure, and I don't expect Anora to be quite so sure either.

[Sarah1281]

Addai67 wrote...

Sarah1281 wrote...

I do not feel it is too strong at all. She tells you not to reveal her. You do not agree or disagree thus, as I see it, you implicitly agree. You are faced with what you see as torture and death. You reveal Anora. That is a betrayal. Anora then claims you kidnapped her and leaves. I'm willing to also call that a betrayal but she's not the one who acts against your best interest first.

And saying that all bets are off and it's everyone for themselves really does make it sound like you're betraying her and okay with this. You don't have to like Anora for betraying you after you betray her but that doesn't mean you don't betray her first.

She sends for you to come rescue her, at considerable risk to yourself.  She could give a flying fig about your best interest.  So why should I care about hers when push comes to shove?  I don't owe her anything.

She doesn't even try to reason with Cauthrien, despite knowing that Loghain will not kill her.  Instead she lies about you, and if it came to it I'm sure she would continue that lie up until the point you are executed.

You do not have to care about or owe someone something to be able to betray them. Say I take the dialogue option where I promise Vaughan I will free him in exchange for the key to his chest with the 40 sovereign in it. I take the key and then I kill him. Despite the fact that this is in everyone's best interest but Vaughan's and that Vaughan himself is a complete monster it is still a betrayal to promise to free him in exchange for the key, to take the key, and then to kill him instead. The word 'betray' may have some serious negative connotations but that doesn't mean that betraying people is necessarily wrong. It does mean that it is a betrayal, though.

[Addai]

Sarah1281 wrote...

I am not arguing moral relativity. You feel that you had a good reason to go against Anora. First you (admittedly implied) agreed not to reveal her. You then reveal her. Saying that you will do one thing that is in someone's best interest and then turning around and doing the opposite is the definition of a betrayal. It is not in any way in Anora's best interest for Cauthrien to know she's there because she will be taken to her father and not have her chance to take the throne. It does not matter what might happen if you do not reveal her because even if you would all die had you not revealed her, revealing her is still a betrayal as it is not in her best interest.

I'm not even saying that you are wrong to betray her because you do have a compelling reason to but when she betrays you after you already betrayed her, you getting all indignant about it is the pot calling the kettle black.

The idea that you're implicitly agreeing to her request is all your interpretation.  I see the silence as "yeah, we'll see about that".  My PCs generally suspect it is all a trap from the get-go and the appearance of Cauthrien just confirms it.  So, no surprise really when Anora turns, but that just seals the impression.

[sylvanaerie]

KoP, I'm sure Anora knows she won't be killed by her father. That was never in my mind (either that she doubted him or that he would kill her). I think Anora knows he won't either. But he will lock her away till after the Landsmeet is done and he has won. She has one purpose to the PC being there: 1) get the PC and Alistair killed/captured, eliminating them as a threat to her throne or 2) getting PC's support/sympathy for the Landsmeet so she can maintain her throne. There is also the possibility she's just a bit of a drama queen. Both Howe and Loghain say she loves 'games'.

[Sarah1281]

Addai67 wrote...

Sarah1281 wrote...

I am not arguing moral relativity. You feel that you had a good reason to go against Anora. First you (admittedly implied) agreed not to reveal her. You then reveal her. Saying that you will do one thing that is in someone's best interest and then turning around and doing the opposite is the definition of a betrayal. It is not in any way in Anora's best interest for Cauthrien to know she's there because she will be taken to her father and not have her chance to take the throne. It does not matter what might happen if you do not reveal her because even if you would all die had you not revealed her, revealing her is still a betrayal as it is not in her best interest.

I'm not even saying that you are wrong to betray her because you do have a compelling reason to but when she betrays you after you already betrayed her, you getting all indignant about it is the pot calling the kettle black.

The idea that you're implicitly agreeing to her request is all your interpretation.  I see the silence as "yeah, we'll see about that".  My PCs generally suspect it is all a trap from the get-go and the appearance of Cauthrien just confirms it.  So, no surprise really when Anora turns, but that just seals the impression.

If you won't even agree to a basic 'btw, you know how you spent all this time and effort rescuing me? It would be great if you could not do anything that would make coming here a complete waste of your time and getting me recaptured' request, I really have to wonder why your Wardens bother rescuing Anora at all (game mechanics aside since the Wardens themselves don't have to deal with those).

[KnightofPhoenix]

sylvanaerie wrote...

KoP, I'm sure Anora knows she won't be killed by her father. That was never in my mind (either that she doubted him or that he would kill her). I think Anora knows he won't either. But he will lock her away till after the Landsmeet is done and he has won.

Well considering how Loghain didn't do much if anything to Howe when he proposed the idea, then Anora could have feared that Loghain could indeed kill her if she plotted against him. I personally think he wouldn't, but I don't blame Anora for being suspicious.

I am not denying the possibility of the scenario you posted. Either the whole scene is not what it looks like, or the writing was just bordering idiotic that it didn't make much sense.
However, she still has nothing to gain from Loghain finding out (if Cauthrien finds out) that she is plotting behind his back and I do not think Anora was a 100% sure that Loghain would not kill her for this.

Modifié par KnightofPhoenix, 21 novembre 2010 - 10:39 .

[Ryzaki]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Ryzaki wrote...
If she felt so strongly about herself being the best for the country I'd have expected her to go ahead and marry the male PC/Alistair despite what they'd done. Instead she acts just like she accuses Alistair of being, overemotional and illogical.

Did anyone tell Alistair to marry Loghain?

Different scenarios here. Anora doesn't want to marry her father's killer, but she doesn't actually call for Alistair's execution if he does kill him and remains a warden as a result. How is that "overemotional"?

Why would Alistair marry Loghain?  He doesn't insist that he's the only good thing for Fereldan.

Actually her killing for Alstair's for her father's execution would actually work against her. Her father is already dead and she is calling for Alistair's execution...why exactly? He has given up any claim to the throne infront of the entire landsmeet. She has absolutely no leg to stand on to execute him.

According to the toolset the whole moment with her trying to get the Wardens to accept Loghain was her being emotional. In particular when she tells her father to "be quiet" was her acting childish. (According to the toolset anyways). Actually it was the "stop treating me like a child." My bad.

Instead of keeping composure when her father is executed she drops to her knees and stares at him sadly.

Modifié par Ryzaki, 21 novembre 2010 - 10:43 .

[Sarah1281]

Anora doesn't try to kill Alistair if her father dies. And she can have him arrested to be executed without asking for an oath of fealty, as she does when Loghain lives and they aren't to marry.

[Ryzaki]

Sarah1281 wrote...

Anora doesn't try to kill Alistair if her father dies. And she can have him arrested to be executed without asking for an oath of fealty, as she does when Loghain lives and they aren't to marry.

Uh...I distinctly remember Alistair refusing to allow his claim to go if Loghain wasn't killed. That is why she had him excuted.

Before you can even say shes queen Alistair insists that he be made king and when you ask him to step down (swear the oath) he goes no.

Modifié par Ryzaki, 21 novembre 2010 - 10:46 .

[KnightofPhoenix]

Ryzaki wrote...
Why would Alistair marry Loghain?  He doesn't insist that he's the only good thing for Fereldan.

That's not the point. The point is, Alistair was adamant about killing Loghain even when it didn't serve any real purpose. Him refusing to even accept Loghain alive, so much so that he is willing to abandon everyone, is not the same as Anora refusing to marry her father's killer.

Ryzaki wrote...
Actually her killing for Alstair's execution would actually work against her. Her father is already dead and she is calling for Alistair's execution...why exactly? He has given up any claim to the throne infront of the entire landsmeet. She has absolutely no leg to stand on to execute him.

Hence why her reaction was logical and not illogical like you claim. Had she been illogical, she would have called for Alistair's execution, when it served absolutely no purpose. Despite the fact that he killed her father, also without much purpose. 

Ryzaki wrote...
According to the toolset the whole moment with her trying to get the Wardens to accept Loghain was her being emotional. In particular when she tells her father to "be quiet" was her acting childish. (According to the toolset anyways).

Emotional =/= overemotional.
No one claimed that Anora is so cold that she doesn't care about her father. But when he dies, the only line she can't cross is marrying her father's killer. She does nothing however that can be qualified as "overemotional".

Modifié par KnightofPhoenix, 21 novembre 2010 - 10:48 .

[Ryzaki]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...


That's not the point. The point is, Alistair was adamant about killing Loghain even when it didn't serve any real purpose. Him refusing to even accept Loghain alive, so much so that he is willing to abandon everyone, is not the same as Anora refusing to marry her father's killer.

Even though she insists that Fereldan will suffer with Alistair as king? Also whether you like them are not there are plenty of valid reasons to kill Loghain. Now I'm not saying Alistair did it for any of those reasons but they exist regardless.

I fail to see how he's abandoning everyone by leaving. He is not aware of he whole Warden needed to finish of the Archedemon thing As far as the PC is considered it's only one soldier leaving.

Hence why her reaction was logical and not illogical like you claim. Had she been illogical, she would have called for Alistair's execution, when it served absolutely no purpose. Despite the fact that he killed her father, also without much purpose.

There was plenty of purpose in killing Loghain.

Emotional =/= overemotional.
No one claimed that Anora is so cold that she doesn't care about her father. But when he dies, the only line she can't cross is marrying her father's killer. Other than that, she does nothing that can be qualified as "overemotional".

I suppose so. FOr all her insistance that Alistairwould be horrible for Fereldan and how much she loves her country she certainly doesn't walk her talk.

Modifié par Ryzaki, 21 novembre 2010 - 10:53 .