248 réponses à ce sujet

[KnightofPhoenix]

Ryzaki wrote...
Even though she insists that Fereldan will suffer with Alistair as king?

Well seeing how unqualified he is, him wanting to be king JUST to kill one man, him deciding to leave Ferelden over this, and how  he is in general, I can't say I blame her for thinking it.

Even if Alistair turns out to be a decent king (with a great deal of help), Anora fares much better imo.

Add to that that Anora doesn't really know Alsitair, who you have to admit at first sight doesn't give the impression of a kingly type.

There was plenty of purpose in killing Loghain.

It wasn't necessary and Alistair wasn't thinking along those lines anyways. When someone says he wants to rule a country just to kill one man or else he will leave the country he just wanted to rule to its fate, chances are he wants that man dead just for the sake of it.

I suppose so. FOr all her insistance that Alistairwould be horrible for Fereldan and how much she loves her country she certainly doesn't walk her talk.

How her refusing to marry her father's killer means she doesn't like her country?

Modifié par KnightofPhoenix, 21 novembre 2010 - 10:56 .

[Ryzaki]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Well seeing how unqualified he is, him wanting to be king JUST to kill one man, him deciding to leave Ferelden over this, and how  he is in general, I can't say I blame her for thinking it.

Even if Alistair turns out to be a decent king (with a great deal of help), Anora fares much better imo.

Add to that that Anora doesn't really know Alsitair, who you have to admit at first sight doesn't give the impression of a kingly type.

So much better that there's a food shortage. That said we do happen to have different opinions so there's not much to disagree about.

Also: Since when did hardened Alistair only want to be king to kill Loghain? 

And truth be told Anora didn't give me the impression of a queenly type either letting her power be taken away from her with such ease and little resistance.

It wasn't necessary and Alistair wasn't thinking along those lines anyways. When someone says he wants to rule a country just to kill one man or else he will leave the country he just wanted to rule to its fate, chances are he wants that man dead just for the sake of it.

Uh. Yes yes it was. I  corrected it to say he wasn't thinking along those lines but there are plenty of valid reasons to kill Loghain.

How her refusing to marry her father's killer means she doesn't like her country?

You're right it doesn't mean she doesn't like her country. Just means that for all her talk of being good for the country means very little.

She doesn't even offer to help Alistair rule. She doesn't have to marry the man to be an advisor. She instead stubbornly clings to a throne that is not hers even when asked to step down.

Again she thinks Alistair would be horrible for Fereldan. If she did not want to see her country ran into the groud by his incompetance you'd think she would've tried to make some sort of arrangement if not marriage. Instead she insists upon the throne even when everyoe else there is asking her to step down nicely.

Modifié par Ryzaki, 21 novembre 2010 - 11:07 .

[KnightofPhoenix]

Ryzaki wrote...
So much better that there's a food shortage. That said we do happen to have different opinions so.

Only to the elves, which means that Anora probably allocated ressources to more important things, like reconstruction. And yes, for me, the situation of the city elves is low in priority.
All her other reforms and her ability to crush opposition outweight that incident for me.

Uh. Yes yes it was. I  corrected it to say he wasn't thinking along those lines but there are plenty of valid reasons to kill Loghain.

Sure.
Alistair was not thinking about them however.

You're right it doesn't mean she doesn't like her country. Just means that for all her talk of being good for the country means very little.

Because marrying her father's killer is proof that she would be good for the country?
She is good for the country because of her training, her experience, her will and because the nobles and commoners know her and hold her in high esteem already.

Again she thinks Alistair would be horrible for Fereldan. If she did not want to see her country ran into the groud by his incompetance you'd think she would've tried to make some sort of arrangement if not marriage. Instead she insists upon the throne even when everyoe else there is asking her to step down nicely.

Yea sure, she wasn't compeltely logical and cold there. That does not make her overemotional. Even for me, and I am quite cold and ruthless.

[Ryzaki]

I have to admit I hate the railroading you're forced into late game. You really should've been able to leave Anora at Howe's mercy. (I mean for the love of Ra you can even suggest that it's a trap!)

And my PCs would've been willing to gamble on Loghain killing his own daughter.

[KnightofPhoenix]

Ryzaki wrote...
Also: Since when did hardened Alistair only want to be king to kill Loghain? 

He says so himself in the Landsmeet.

Ryzaki wrote...
And truth be told Anora didn't give me the impression of a queenly type either letting her power be taken away from her with such ease and little resistance.

Yes because I would love to see how you would fair when Ferelden's greatest general marches in the city with an army behind him.

Modifié par KnightofPhoenix, 21 novembre 2010 - 11:12 .

[Ryzaki]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...
Only to the elves, which means that Anora probably allocated ressources to more important things, like reconstruction. And yes, for me, the situation of the city elves is low in priority.
All her other reforms and her ability to crush opposition outweight that incident for me.

I see otherwise. The fact that an unhardened Alistair has no such riots are in his favor.

Sure.
Alistair was not thinking about them however.

And that somehow makes them less valid? 

Because marrying her father's killer is proof that she would be good for the country?
She is good for the country because of her training, her experience, her will and because the nobles and commoners know her and hold her in high esteem already.

And all of that means naught if she's not in a position of power.

Yea sure, she wasn't compeltely logical and cold there. That does not make her overemotional. Even for me, and I am quite cold and ruthless.

I already said I was wrong about the overemotional part. Still I can't see Anora as a good queen because of how easily and quickly Loghain steam rolled over her.

Most of the game scenes with Loghain and her consist of her wringing her hands and being completely ineffectual while Loghain wavs of her concerns like it's nothing. Not the best vote of confidence there.

[Ryzaki]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

He says so himself in the Landsmeet.

That isn't the only reason and you know it KOP. If he's hardened he wants to become king due to making a difference. It's only at the Landsmeet that if you refuse to let him become King that he starts grasping at straws.

Ryzaki wrote...
Yes because I would love to see how you would fair when Ferelden's greatest general marches in the city with an army behind him.

The fact that she lost her complete army to him and did nothing says far more about her abilities than anything. Has she no allies left? 

BTW I don't pretend to be a competent ruler and the best thing for a country, she does. 

She says nothing she doesn't even gather the landsmeet instead she quiets down and starts the handwringing. Despite the fact that the blightis ging along unchecked and the country is losing lands to it. No. She instead of protecting her country and trying to give any support she can even if its little she just handwrings.

Modifié par Ryzaki, 21 novembre 2010 - 11:20 .

[Addai]

Sarah1281 wrote...
 If you won't even agree to a basic 'btw, you know how you spent all this time and effort rescuing me? It would be great if you could not do anything that would make coming here a complete waste of your time and getting me recaptured' request, I really have to wonder why your Wardens bother rescuing Anora at all (game mechanics aside since the Wardens themselves don't have to deal with those).

As Eamon tells you, you have to make an effort.  I also think it's a good idea to get in there and see what Howe is doing.  You end up rescuing a lot of people, including potential allies and Riordan, and finding incriminating information on Howe.

In terms of any alliance with Anora, like I say, that is tenuous at best.  I see her turning on you as repaying you risking your life for her with a cowardly and pretty nasty lie.

Modifié par Addai67, 21 novembre 2010 - 11:18 .

[Sarah1281]

The fact that she lost her complete army to him and did nothing says far more about her abilities than anything. Has she no allies left?

She didn't lose HER army to him. The royal army dies with Cailan at Ostagar. Loghain's army is the army of Gwaren and, as he's the Teyrn, owe nothing to any monarch.

[sylvanaerie]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Ryzaki wrote...
Also: Since when did hardened Alistair only want to be king to kill Loghain? 

He says so himself in the Landsmeet.

Ryzaki wrote...
And truth be told Anora didn't give me the impression of a queenly type either letting her power be taken away from her with such ease and little resistance.

Yes because I would love to see how you would fair when Ferelden's greatest general marches in the city with an army behind him.

Of course, Ferelden being the cradle of idiocy, that's not something I would want on my resume.
In truth, I think Loghain got away with all he did not because he intimidated Anora as a general but because he intimidated her as a father.  She was told all her life "You will marry and be queen" by Maric/Loghain and probably her mother too.  She had no other identity than that.  She wasn't allowed one.
Loghain and she failed to translate their relationship from little girl/daddy to adult woman/father possibly due to his neglect in her formative years (he spent most of her early life in Denerim and not in Gwaren).  I see a lot more of "She's my little girl, she needs me to protect her (even from her own bad choices)" in Loghain.  Even if her choices aren't bad, he won't let her argue them, "Daddy will fix everything, pumpkin, go play with your dolls".

[KnightofPhoenix]

Ryzaki wrote...
I see otherwise. The fact that an unhardened Alistair has no such riots are in his favor.

Mostly nothing happens under him, especially unhardened, at all anyways.
That for me is not in his favor. And the lack of a food shortage to a part of the population that has been purged several times in the last decade does not outweight Anora's reforms for me.

And that somehow makes them less valid? 

No, that makes Alistair's position not valid imo, because they are not based on any of those reasons.

And all of that means naught if she's not in a position of power.

Hence her will. And ambition to rule. That for me is a plus.

Ryzaki wrote...

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

He says so himself in the Landsmeet.

That
isn't the only reason and you know it KOP. If he's hardened he wants to
become king due to making a difference. It's only at the Landsmeet that
if you refuse to let him become King that he starts grasping at straws.

That's what Anora sees. I am arguing what Anora thinks.
She has no reason to think Alistair is even decent, she doesn't know him except for what she sees.

Ryzaki wrote...
The fact that she lost her
complete army to him and did nothing says far more about her abilities
than anything. Has she no allies left?

A- Loghain was already in command of the army since Ostagar.
B- Anora actually agreed with Loghain at first and as such deferred to him, him being the more experience in war.

Only later did she start moving against him. Before that, she accepted Loghain as regent (though she had doubts).

Modifié par KnightofPhoenix, 21 novembre 2010 - 11:26 .

[Ryzaki]

Sarah1281 wrote...

The fact that she lost her complete army to him and did nothing says far more about her abilities than anything. Has she no allies left?

She didn't lose HER army to him. The royal army dies with Cailan at Ostagar. Loghain's army is the army of Gwaren and, as he's the Teyrn, owe nothing to any monarch.

Ah thanks for the correction.

[Ryzaki]

KnightofPhoenix wrote..
Mostly nothing happens under him, especially unhardened, at all anyways.
That for me is not in his favor. And the lack of a food shortage to a part of the population that has been purged sveeral times in the last decace does not outweight Anora's reforms for me.

Nothing happening usually means peace. That for me is a plus. The fact that Anora can't balance her reforms with basic food needs isn't a mark in her favor to me.

No, that makes Alsitair's position not valid imo, because they are not absed on any of those reasons.

True but isn't the very reason he wants to kill Loghain due to the betrayal? His treason? 

Hence her will. And ambition to rule. That for me is a plus.

To me her will would've been fine if shown before end game. Too much time spent handwringing until she saw someone else trying to do something and decided to piggyback onto that.

That's what Anora sees. I am arguing what Anora thinks.
She has no reason to think Alistair is even decent, she doesn't know him except for what she sees.

Oh.

A- Loghain was already in command of the army since Ostagar.
B- Anora actually agreed with Loghain at first and as such deferred to him, him being the more experience in war.

Only later did she start moving against him. Before that, she accepted Loghain as regent.

Yes and she obviously has no mind of her own to see that something's not right far before the landsmeet happened? The country (particularly denerim) had been slowly falling into chaos before than. (Simply speak to Kylon). She doesn't notice this? She doesn't care? What kind of ineffectual leader is she?

[sylvanaerie]

[quote]KnightofPhoenix wrote...

That
isn't the only reason and you know it KOP. If he's hardened he wants to
become king due to making a difference. It's only at the Landsmeet that
if you refuse to let him become King that he starts grasping at straws.
[/quote]

That's what Anora sees. I am arguing what Anora thinks.
She has no reason to think Alistair is even decent, she doesn't know him except for what she sees.


[quote]Ryzaki wrote...
The fact that she lost her
complete army to him and did nothing says far more about her abilities
than anything. Has she no allies left? [/quote]

A- Loghain was already in command of the army since Ostagar.
B- Anora actually agreed with Loghain at first and as such deferred to him, him being the more experience in war.

Only later did she start moving against him. Before that, she accepted Loghain as regent (though she had doubts).
[/quote]

She admits he is biddable and 'decent enough' and that those are good qualities in a man (or even a Grey Warden) but not kingly ones.  She doubts he will have the stomach to make the hard choices she knows she is capable of as ruler.  So she DOES know him, just has no faith that he has the qualities to rule.
Personally I think he shouldn't.  She's been trained from birth to rule and he was raised in a barn.  He does an admirable job if he has PC or Anora (if they marry) as help in it.  But alone, left to Eamon...hells no.  I'll give Anora the crown before I let that happen.

[Sarah1281]

Nothing happening usually means peace. That for me is a plus. The fact that Anora can't balance her reforms with basic food needs isn't a mark in her favor to me.

Peace is good. Stagnation isn't. Nothing happening is usually a sign of stagnation and Ferelden is already considered the backwater of Thedas so it really can't afford any more of that. It would be nice if Anora could keep the Alienage elves fed but if she can't do both then I would rather she drag Ferelden into the modern age with her trade and universities.

[KnightofPhoenix]

Ryzaki wrote...
Nothing happening usually means peace. That for me is a plus. The fact that Anora can't balance her reforms with basic food needs isn't a mark in her favor to me.

It also means stagnation.
But this is irrlevent. You can believe what you want. We can do this all day and never be over.

True but isn't the very reason he wants to kill Loghain due to the betrayal? His treason?

The way I see it, for revenge only or primarily. The other reasons don't really matter, as he is just as willing to betray Ferelden and his order.

To me her will would've been fine if shown before end game. Too much time spent handwringing until she saw someone else trying to do something and decided to piggyback onto that.

Because doing otherwise would have been suicidal.

Yes and she obviously has no mind of her own to see that something's not right far before the landsmeet happened? The country (particularly denerim) had been slowly falling into chaos before than. (Simply speak to Kylon). She doesn't notice this? She doesn't care? What kind of ineffectual leader is she?

The chaos Kylon speaks of is after Ostagar and specifically when Howe becomes Arl of Denerim, not before.
Considering how all nobles and commoners hold Anora in high esteem and know she is the one ruling, then I see no evidence that her rule prior to Ostagar was causing any chaos or degredation. She might not be creating a utopia, but she obviously managed.

Anyways, I don't really care, that was never my point. The point was what Anora thinks of Alistair and of the Landsmeet in general. 

Modifié par KnightofPhoenix, 21 novembre 2010 - 11:37 .

[KnightofPhoenix]

sylvanaerie wrote...
She admits he is biddable and 'decent enough' and that those are good qualities in a man (or even a Grey Warden) but not kingly ones.  She doubts he will have the stomach to make the hard choices she knows she is capable of as ruler.  So she DOES know him, just has no faith that he has the qualities to rule.
Personally I think he shouldn't.  She's been trained from birth to rule and he was raised in a barn.  He does an admirable job if he has PC or Anora (if they marry) as help in it.  But alone, left to Eamon...hells no.  I'll give Anora the crown before I let that happen.

She does not know him when he is hardened, which arguably makes him more suitable to be king. That was my point.

[Ryzaki]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...
It also means stagnation.
But this is irrlevent. You can believe what you want. We can do this all day and never be over.

And wher pray tell does his rule stagnate? There's a difference between peace and stanganation.

You can do the same.

The way I see it, for revenge only or primarily. The other reasons don't really matter, as he is just as willing to betray Ferelden and his order.

He is not betraying Ferledan by leaving. Now he is betraying the PC and the wardens but given the fact that the PC betrays him first I see that as mere retaliation. Petty to be sure but retaliation.

Because doing otherwise would have been suicidal.

Yes because her father is going to kill her for questioning him or doing anything other than her ineffectual handwringing.

A leader has to take risks. Shewas content to let her father run the country she loves into the ground as long as she was "safe". That is not a good leader to me.

The chaos Kylon speaks of is after Ostagar and specifically when Howe becomes Arl of Denerim, not before.
Considering how all nobles and commoners hold Anora in high esteem and know she is the one ruling, then I see no evidence that her rule prior to Ostagar was causing any chaos or degredation. She might not be creating a utopia, but she obviously managed.

Never said the rule before caused anything KoP. I said she did nothing when she was either fully aware of what was going on. Or had no clue (which is even worse).

Anyways, I don't really care, that was never my point. The point was what Anora thinks of Alistair and of the Landsmeet in general. 

Anora thinks Alistair's "biddable enough and similar to Cailan." and th landsmeet. Does she ever say anything about the landsmeet specifically? 

[sylvanaerie]

I took her statement being more in general, his upbringing as opposed to hers, where she was trained in it and knew she had the ability to make hard choices and he was not and isn't. Alistair hardened does make more of a king but I don't think she is thinking in those terms at that point. I think she truly believes she is the better for Ferelden.

(And some of my wardens agree with her).

And refusing to marry her father's killer is completely in character for me (and thus understandable) considering that despite the assembly's urging she never remarries because no one is as good as Loghain in her eyes. (When for all intents and purposes, securing her legacy would depend on marrying and having a child). But that's for another game, another story and probably DA3 or DA4 to address. She does love Loghain and it is perhaps her trying to placate her father allowed Loghain to get away with as much as he did before she finally had enough and decided, I have to stop this.

[Sarah1281]

And wher pray tell does his rule stagnate? There's a difference between peace and stanganation.

What does Alistair do to advance Ferelden? If the answer is 'nothing in particular' then his rule is, by definition, one of stagnation. We hear all about what Anora does to advance the country but all we hear about Alistair is that people liked him, hardened he learns how to rule, and that those in the Alienage are treated more fairly. If that's ALL he does, I'd definitely call that stagnation.

[Ryzaki]

Sarah1281 wrote...

And wher pray tell does his rule stagnate? There's a difference between peace and stanganation.

What does Alistair do to advance Ferelden? If the answer is 'nothing in particular' then his rule is, by definition, one of stagnation. We hear all about what Anora does to advance the country but all we hear about Alistair is that people liked him, hardened he learns how to rule, and that those in the Alienage are treated more fairly. If that's ALL he does, I'd definitely call that stagnation.

Huh. I always viewed stagnation as things screeching to a halt. 

How is the alienage people gaining rights things remaining the same?  That is a social part of a country changing which is what one would consider development is it not? 

Modifié par Ryzaki, 21 novembre 2010 - 11:49 .

[sylvanaerie]

To be fair, his epilogue only goes out a few months after the game. Hers encompasses years. We don't know what he would do as the PTB at Bioware left that open ended for further stories (I am presuming). Hence why hers seems to do more (both bad and good) than his does.

[Ryzaki]

sylvanaerie wrote...

To be fair, his epilogue only goes out a few months after the game. Hers encompasses years. We don't know what he would do as the PTB at Bioware left that open ended for further stories (I am presuming). Hence why hers seems to do more (both bad and good) than his does.

That sort of disappointed me a little bit. I wish his/the PCs epilogues had gone all the way up to their calling.

[KnightofPhoenix]

Ryzaki wrote...
And wher pray tell does his rule stagnate? There's a difference between peace and stanganation.

There is a vast difference between peace and nothing happening as well.
For a backwater country like Ferelden, nothing happening means it staying the joke of Thedas. That's wonderful. 

On one hand, I see trade expansion, laws to encourage freeholders and a plan to construct a university. And on the otherhand all I see is popularity and that's it.

He is not betraying Ferledan by leaving. Now he is betraying the PC and the wardens but given the fact that the PC betrays him first I see that as mere retaliation. Petty to be sure but retaliation.

I am not going to go into this. Besides the point.
Point is, this is what Anora sees, Alistair abandoning Ferelden if he doesnt' get his way.

Yes because her father is going to kill her for questioning him or doing anything other than her ineffectual handwringing.

A leader has to take risks. Shewas content to let her father run the country she loves into the ground as long as she was "safe". That is not a good leader to me.

She did question him. If she moved against him, yes she could think he can kill her or throw her in a prison.
There is a difference between taking a calculated risk, which is siding with you, and being suicidal, which is plotting against the man who has the army when she has no army to fight him with. 

Never said the rule before caused anything KoP. I said she did nothing when she was either fully aware of what was going on. Or had no clue (which is even worse).

Because she couldn't. Howe had already taken over Denerim, because his army is intact, it never went to Ostagar. It just went to Denerim. 

Anora thinks Alistair's "biddable enough and similar to Cailan." and th landsmeet. Does she ever say anything about the landsmeet specifically?

She says these are not kingly qualities. Cailan being an utter imbecile is not a good comparision.

Modifié par KnightofPhoenix, 21 novembre 2010 - 11:53 .