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[Ryzaki]

sylvanaerie wrote...

I took her statement being more in general, his upbringing as opposed to hers, where she was trained in it and knew she had the ability to make hard choices and he was not and isn't. Alistair hardened does make more of a king but I don't think she is thinking in those terms at that point. I think she truly believes she is the better for Ferelden.
(And some of my wardens agree with her).
And refusing to marry her father's killer is completely in character for me (and thus understandable) considering that despite the assembly's urging she never remarries because no one is as good as Loghain in her eyes. (When for all intents and purposes, securing her legacy would depend on marrying and having a child). But that's for another game, another story and probably DA3 or DA4 to address. She does love Loghain and it is perhaps her trying to placate her father allowed Loghain to get away with as much as he did before she finally had enough and decided, I have to stop this.

About the whole never remarrying thing. I always found that to be somewhat suspicious. Here is what's supposed to be a practical and intelligent woman yet she doesn't name an heir to the throne for when she'll die? 

Her love for her father interfered with her ruling capabilities in that case.

Modifié par Ryzaki, 21 novembre 2010 - 11:53 .

[sylvanaerie]

I think the whole thing is "neither Alistair or Anora will have an heir" for follow up stories in the game franchise. KoP told me that the banns were gathering around Redcliffe in WH...I have to wonder what that is about...

[KnightofPhoenix]

sylvanaerie wrote...

To be fair, his epilogue only goes out a few months after the game. Hers encompasses years. We don't know what he would do as the PTB at Bioware left that open ended for further stories (I am presuming). Hence why hers seems to do more (both bad and good) than his does.

She is more trained and qualified to do such things than him. It will take him years at least to become as competent. And that's when hardened. When unhardened, he is king in name only.

[Ryzaki]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...
There is a vast difference between peace and nothing happening as well.
For a backwater country like Ferelden, nothing happening means it staying the joke of Thedas. That's wonderful.

And yet I have litle doubt the people who live there would vastly prefer to be at peace and well fed than care about what some Orlesian snobs think about them.  

On one hand, I see trade expansion, laws to encourage freeholders and a plan to construct a university. And on the otherhand all I see is popularity and that's it.

As someone said before me the amount of time is another issue.

I am not going to go into this. Besides the point.
Point is, this is what Anora sees, Alistair abandoning Ferelden if he doesnt' get his way.

How does she see him as abandoning Fereldan? She says he's acting like a child she says nothing about betrayal and abandoning Fereldan.

She did question him. If she moved against him, yes she could think he can kill her or throw her in a prison.
There is a difference between taking a calculated risk, which is siding with you, and being suicidal, which is plotting against the man who has the army when she has no army to fight him with.

And there's a difference between doing something no matter how small and infeffectual handwringing while you wait for someone to solve your problems for you.

Because she couldn't. Howe had already taken over Denerim, because his army is instact, it never went to Ostagar. It just went to Denerim.

And was reduced to ineffectual handwringing. I might respect the woman more if she had simply left and went among the other banns and teryns and tried to get them to follow her. Instead she handwrings.

She says these are not kingly qualities. Cailan being an utter imbecile is not a good comparision.

Harsh. Anyways...does she say anything about the landsmeet? 

Modifié par Ryzaki, 22 novembre 2010 - 12:01 .

[sylvanaerie]

Exactly, KoP. And that's the biggest point in her favor when my wardens who do support her put her on the throne.

[Ryzaki]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

sylvanaerie wrote...

To be fair, his epilogue only goes out a few months after the game. Hers encompasses years. We don't know what he would do as the PTB at Bioware left that open ended for further stories (I am presuming). Hence why hers seems to do more (both bad and good) than his does.

She is more trained and qualified to do such things than him. It will take him years at least to become as competent. And that's when hardened. When unhardened, he is king in name only.

I can't fathom placing unhardened Alistair in the throne unless the PC is Chancellor.

At least Hardened Alistair tries unhardened Alistair just goofs off like no tomorrow.

[sylvanaerie]

Wow this thread has had some interesting debates carried on in here and everyone has been remarkably civil. This has been a lot of fun reading and participating in tonight!

[KnightofPhoenix]

Ryzaki wrote...
And yet I have litle doubt the people who live there would vastly prefer to be at peace and well feed than care about what some Orlesian snobs think about them.  

No, I think they would prefer being in a country that prospers and develops, instead of being the backwater of the continent.
Trust me, I come from a pathetic excuse of a country too.

Ryzaki wrote...
How does she see him as abandoning Fereldan? She says he's acting like a child she says nothing about betrayal and abandoning Fereldan.

Acting like a child when he is abandoning Ferelden.
What's your point? That she never said it explictly?

Fine, Anora doesn't think Alsitair is abandoning Ferelden. she thinks he is an unqualified child. Fair enough?
Point stands, that Anora does not thinking highly of him, whether she is right or wrong is not the issue here.

And there's a difference between doing something no matter how small and infeffectual handwringing while you wait for someone to solve your problems for you.

And somertimes, doing something is not an option.
She does however, take the initiative to ally with you and plot against her father. That is doing something.
She isn't waiting for you to solve her problems. Her vote in the Landsmeet is the strongest argument and vote. You don't need it, but it certainyl helps having her at your side.

And please, in the entire game, Alistair makes not one single decision ,despite being your superior as a Warden. You do everything for him.

Do you really want to go there since you are comparing Anora and Alsitair which was never the point?

And was reduced to ineffectual handwringing. I might respect the woan more if she had simply left and went among the other banns and teryns and tried to get them to follow her. INstead she handwrings.

Yes, start another front for the civil war, so the country becomes even more in chaos.
That was not an option.

Harsh. Anyways...does she say anything about the landsmeet? 

Yes...during and before.
What's your point? I am really failing to see it.

Modifié par KnightofPhoenix, 22 novembre 2010 - 12:07 .

[sylvanaerie]

I think I'm gonna go play, this thread has gotten me wanting to do more on my CE run. Gonna have to put Alistair on the throne for that one though mostly cause my CE isn't impressed with the job Anora has been doing the past 5 years and after Loghain gets done selling my family to Tevinter blood slavers...well...It's kind of a given that Alistair is getting the crown this run.
Have fun yall!

Modifié par sylvanaerie, 22 novembre 2010 - 12:12 .

[Ryzaki]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...
\\
No, I think they would prefer being in a country that prospers and develops, instead of being the backwater of the continent.
Trust me, I come from a pathetic excuse of a country too.

Then you should realize most of that prosperity will land in the hands of the teryns and the banns and not the average citizen.

And not the group of starving elves.

Acting like a child when he is abandoning Ferelden.
What's your point? That she never said it explictly?

Fine, Anora doesn't think Alsitair is abandoning Ferelden. she thinks he is an unqualified child. Fair enough?
Point stands, that Anora does not thinking highly of him, whether she is right or wrong is not the issue here.

Yeah. She doesn't even mention betrayal and she's not the type to mince words. So I doubt she saw him as betraying a whole country by removing himself.

And somertimes, doing something is not an option.
She does however, take the initiative to ally with you and plot against her father. That is doing something.
She isn't waiting for you to solve her problems. Her vote in the Landsmeet is the strongest argument and vote. You don't need it, but it certainyl helps having her at your side.

But she could've one something is the whole point. She just hangwrings.

No she doesn't. She falls into an obvious trap and expects you to dig her out of it. (Why is the PC so dumb at times? ...Just why?) Nope you don't need her. Which I will eternally be grateful for.

And please, in the entire game, Alistair makes not one single decision ,despite being your superior as a Warden. You do everything for him.

Do you really want to go there since you are comparing Anora and Alsitair which was never the point?

When did I say anything about him making a decision? 

Go where exactly? 

We're talking about Anora's competence as a ruler. She supposedly is already to go. I realize Alistair needs some severe training and do not hide that fact. The claim that Anora is uber competent however strikes me as false.

Yes, start another front for the civil war, so the country becomes even more in chaos.
That was not an option.

Oh yes. Much better the blight kill everyone instead of trying to do something eh? 

Yes...during and before.
What's your point? I am really failing to see it.

I'm asking what she thinks about the landsmeet in general.

[KnightofPhoenix]

Ryzaki wrote...
Then you should realize most of that prosperity will land in the hands of the teryns and the banns and not the average citizen.

And not the group of starving elves.

Nope, since she is enouraging both the merchant class and the freeholders.
Elves are not high on my priority list.

But she could've one something is the whole point. She just hangwrings.

No, she could not. The only thing she can do is ally with you.

No she doesn't. She falls into an obvious trap and expects you to dig her out of it. (Why is the PC so dumb at times? ...Just why?) Nope you don't need her. Which I will eternally be grateful for.

Yes she does, hence Erlina going to get you. And she makes it clear in Eamon's estate that she sees in you the real card holder, and thus proposes an alliance. That is doing something. Even if, for the sake of argument, she did not plan what happened at Howe's estate. The fact that she realises who the card holder is and allying with him, is doing something, which is the most she could have done.

You don't need  her sure. Her vote however counts as 3 other arguments.

When did I say anything about him making a decision? 

Go where exactly? 

We're talking about Anora's competence as a ruler. She supposedly is already to go. I realize Alistair needs some severe training and do not hide that fact. The claim that Anora is uber competent however strikes me as false.

You are comparing Anora and Alistair vis a vis ruling. You blame Anora for not doing anything supposedely, while Alistair also never did anything either.

No one claimed she was "uber competent", I have no idea where you are getting this from, thus fail to see the entire point of this tangent, that was started by you claiming that she was "overemotional" and then admitting that you are wrong. That was it. I do not care for debating about Anora or Alsitair here. That was never point.

Oh yes. Much better the blight kill everyone instead of trying to do something eh?

Much better to side with the man who is obviously defeating the bannorn, then side with them and lose.
Neither could have defeated he blight, but:
A- she does not know the wardens are necessary, and for all she knows no one survived Ostagar apart for one or two that she has no reason to believe can turn the tide
B- she could not get to you in the first place until the Landsmeet.

So what's smarter? Keep siding with Loghain who is beating the bannorn. Or side with them and lose?

I'm asking what she thinks about the landsmeet in general.

....What is she supposed to think about it?
She thinks of it as a means to get back her throne.

[Ryzaki]

Well thank you for answering my question then

What tangent?



Also...one could consider that whole Alistair betraying Fereldan bit the same tbph.



And I'm not comparing the two of them. I'm just asking where did Anora's competence as a ruler go when she got steamrolled over by her father.

[Sarah1281]

About the whole never remarrying thing. I always found that to be somewhat suspicious. Here is what's supposed to be a practical and intelligent woman yet she doesn't name an heir to the throne for when she'll die?

We don't know that she doesn't and as it happens I believe that she does. The heir to a throne does not have to be her flesh-and-blood child. Anora does not want a husband because - or so claims the slide - that no one measures up to her husband. We know that her experience with Cailan was not a pleasant one for her and that she's afraid that if she takes a king that she'll just rule in his name again. Say Fergus has three children with Bann Alfstanna. There is no reason Anora couldn't name one of them her heir. Say Anora really cannot have children and she knows this. Her marrying to produce an heir would be pointless but she can still name an heir and do so based on competence and not because he happens to be her son.

How is the alienage people gaining rights things remaining the same? That is a social part of a country changing which is what one would consider development is it not?

How does the lives of the city elves improving mean that Ferelden moves foward as a society? It means that the elves are happier and good for them. There are far more humans in Ferelden and their lives are not improved one bit by having the elves have a better life. Ferelden as a whole does not become less of a backwater for having happier, less abused elves. I'm not saying that happier, less abused elves is a bad thing but if that's Alistair's only accomplishment then Ferelden, as a whole, stagnated.

And yet I have litle doubt the people who live there would vastly prefer to be at peace and well feed than care about what some Orlesian snobs think about them.

...Since when is trying to stop Ferelden from being a backwater about being embarrassed that the Orlesians - or anyone else - thinks badly of them?

Then you should realize most of that prosperity will land in the hands of the teryns and the banns and not the average citizen.



And not the group of starving elves.

And you should realize that nobody but the elves actually cares about the elves and that the increased trade and universities that Anora brings will help promote a middle class which won't just be a benefit for the nobility.

No she doesn't. She falls into an obvious trap and expects you to dig her out of it.

I tend to think that Anora arranged the whole Howe thing to make contact with you (because really, would you trust her if she just came up to you and offered her services?). That makes her less naive than walking into an obvious trap although I will concede it may not make you like her any more. But still, going to Howe's estate was necessary for the Landsmeet as without that you have a) Ostagar which no one believes you about the Blight which people do believe and gains you one vote and c) Eamon's poisoning which, without Alfstanna backing you up, no one believes.

Oh yes. Much better the blight kill everyone instead of trying to do something eh?

Exactly how do you figure opening up a second front in the civil war (which is already distracting everybody from trying to do something about the Blight ravaging the land) will stop the darkspawn from killing everyone? And since Anora's army is dead, whose is she supposed to be using?

[KnightofPhoenix]

Ryzaki wrote...
 I'm just asking where did Anora's competence as a ruler go when she got steamrolled over by her father.

I personally think she could not have done anything. Short of poisoning him, but even that could have been disastrous.

But I am exhausted
Just my opinion, I do not think this is a point against her.

[Sarah1281]

And I'm not comparing the two of them. I'm just asking where did Anora's competence as a ruler go when she got steamrolled over by her father.

Anora is a civilian ruler who lost power when Cailan died and her father and his gigantic army pulled a military coup and kept her on as a puppet ruler to give him legitimacy while he tried to deal with Ferelden's problems. How do you think the army-less Anora whose only official position was consort to the dead king should have handled her father coming in with his army and Howe coming in with HIS army and collection of titles?

[Ryzaki]

Sarah1281 wrote...

And I'm not comparing the two of them. I'm just asking where did Anora's competence as a ruler go when she got steamrolled over by her father.

Anora is a civilian ruler who lost power when Cailan died and her father and his gigantic army pulled a military coup and kept her on as a puppet ruler to give him legitimacy while he tried to deal with Ferelden's problems. How do you think the army-less Anora whose only official position was consort to the dead king should have handled her father coming in with his army and Howe coming in with HIS army and collection of titles?

She should've tried to unite the banns in the very beginning. I'd have more respect for her if she had tried something and lost rather than done nothing at all.

She doesn't even try to push at Loghain's limits. AT all. I don't know about you but I always push my parents boundaries. Always. You push and push and see how much you can get away with before they lose their temper. She does absolutely nothing other than get caught by Howe.

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Ryzaki wrote...
 I'm just asking where did Anora's competence as a ruler go when she got steamrolled over by her father.

I personally think she could not have done anything. Short of poisoning him, but even that could have been disastrous.

But I am exhausted [smilie]../../../images/forum/emoticons/grin.png[/smilie]
Just my opinion, I do not think this is a point against her.

Actually I think I'd like her more if she did something like this. It would be actually ruthless and less backstabby.

Modifié par Ryzaki, 22 novembre 2010 - 12:47 .

[Ryzaki]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...
Nope, since she is enouraging both the merchant class and the freeholders.
Elves are not high on my priority list.

How is she doing that? 

I can see that much.

No, she could not. The only thing she can do is ally with you.

So it was completely impossible for her to do anything earlier? (How big was the KA anyway?) She was backed completely into a corner? 

I don't believe the only thing she could do is ally with you because she's so quick to turn on you at both Howe's estate and the landsmeet if you don't do exactly what she wants. So either she's shortsighted or she thought she had other options. (Apparently she would've rather had her father remain on the throne in power with the impending Darkspawn threat coming despite his abuses if you're not going to make her queen).

Real sharp there.

Same goes for making her father pay for his crimes. (Well if you tell her beforehand anyways).

Yes she does, hence Erlina going to get you. And she makes it clear in Eamon's estate that she sees in you the real card holder, and thus proposes an alliance. That is doing something. Even if, for the sake of argument, she did not plan what happened at Howe's estate. The fact that she realises who the card holder is and allying with him, is doing something, which is the most she could have done.

She does this after you've laid the cards at her feet. She doesn't send Erlina to get you before she gets herself captured.

You are comparing Anora and Alistair vis a vis ruling. You blame Anora for not doing anything supposedely, while Alistair also never did anything either.

I blame her  for not doing anything to protect her rule. Alistair never had to do such.

No one claimed she was "uber competent", I have no idea where you are getting this from, thus fail to see the entire point of this tangent, that was started by you claiming that she was "overemotional" and then admitting that you are wrong. That was it. I do not care for debating about Anora or Alsitair here. That was never point.

Then why bother continuing? 

Much better to side with the man who is obviously defeating the bannorn, then side with them and lose.
Neither could have defeated he blight, but:
A- she does not know the wardens are necessary, and for all she knows no one survived Ostagar apart for one or two that she has no reason to believe can turn the tide
B- she could not get to you in the first place until the Landsmeet.

Doesn't matter that she doesn't know the Wardens are necessary. She was intelligent enough to realize that the dakspawn horde could not be defeated with the amount of soldiers in merely Loghain's army. Yet she does nothing with this information.

So what's smarter? Keep siding with Loghain who is beating the bannorn. Or side with them and lose?

They're both pretty bad options. She's dead either way. THe least she could've done was attempt to make her father see reason or try to rally his troops to her cause. If that didn't work yes I think she should've gone to the banns and petitioned the Orlesians for support. 

Also: There wouldn't have been a second front because she would've united with the banns already fighting Loghain. With her support that might've been enough of a boost to hopefully get some of the forces that think she fully support her father onto the side of the rebels.

Modifié par Ryzaki, 22 novembre 2010 - 12:53 .

[KnightofPhoenix]

You are right, I won't bother, we are going in circles in an off-topic tangent that has nothing to do with the original topic. And I have much better things to do.

[Ryzaki]

That said I think Ser Bryant described the landsmeet best "Only fools argue about who owns a house while it burns around them."

[Ryzaki]

ejoslin wrote...

I wanted to point out, the one guy who threw in with Loghain ALWAYS throws in with him. The bald guy never sides with the warden.

Okay...what is that guy's story? 

Honestly I really want to know.

[Sarah1281]

Ryzaki wrote...

ejoslin wrote...

I wanted to point out, the one guy who threw in with Loghain ALWAYS throws in with him. The bald guy never sides with the warden.

Okay...what is that guy's story? 

Honestly I really want to know.

 Bann Ceorlic is the son of the man who killed Moira the Rebel Queen...and who is also named Bann Ceorlic.

And how is encouraging trade and education not promoting the middle class? 

[Ryzaki]

^It is I'm was just seeing how much I could post until KoP gave up. I was trolling. XD



...I don't get the significance.

[KnightofPhoenix]

Ryzaki wrote...

^It is I'm was just seeing how much I could post until KoP gave up. I was trolling. XD

Good job, me giving up does not happen often

[sylvanaerie]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Ryzaki wrote...

^It is I'm was just seeing how much I could post until KoP gave up. I was trolling. XD

Good job, me giving up does not happen often

Personally I prefer to try to get KoP to meet me at least halfway.  I don't want to wear him down...like Chinese water torture

[KnightofPhoenix]

sylvanaerie wrote...
Personally I prefer to try to get KoP to meet me at least halfway.  I don't want to wear him down...like Chinese water torture

That's really what I want in most cases, especially since I do think all choices are valid and I just want to add a perspective (I mean I argued for killing Morrigan for goodness sake! ).


The only choice I will never compromise on is the "leaving the demon in Redcliff for a few days and hope she doesn't do anything" one.

Modifié par KnightofPhoenix, 22 novembre 2010 - 01:39 .