74 réponses à ce sujet

[IanPolaris]

BHRamsay wrote...

I held Wynne up not as a "paragon of virtue" but as someone willing to own her choices which your little blood mage most certainly does not do. Neither does Zathrian who doesn't own  up to his screw-ups until his own people have been so poisoned by those choices as to make them a threat to your mission to save Ferelden.

Oh that's just bull.  Wynne doesn't own up to her mistakes.  She claims you shouldn't sleep with love-interest X and then changes her mind when you fall in love....which was her complaint to begin with.  She can't stand to be in the tower, but not only encourages but INSISTS that Anerin (and you if you are a mage) should shut themselves up into the tower.  She claims she wants the best for Fereldan and views the Wardens as what is good in Fereldan, but does so no later than thirty seconds after she tries to get you and your party killed for what she thinks might be blood magic.

Only Wynne will try to kill the warden (or potentially do so) no fewer than four (five with the original activated dialog) times.

Only Wynne can't see the hypocrisy of being possessed by a faith spirit but being against "abominations" especially since she technically is one.

Please don't get me started on Wynne.  Even my good characters kill her every single time now and for good reason.

-Polaris

[IanPolaris]

BHRamsay wrote...
And since we are now going to throw the H word around lets cast an eye toward Morri who condems any act of altuism but is quick to send you into a dangerous confrontaion with Flemeth for no real reward.

At no time does Morrigan try to leave you or kill you if you refuse or even simply don't do it.  Morri is always after her own best interest.  She is almost the polar opposit of a hypocrit.  Morri openly admits that she will use people to get her own way.  This is no different, but unlike some (Wynne), Morri is fundamentally honest about who and what she is.

Look up the H word before you toss it around.

-Polaris

[Face of Evil]

IanPolaris wrote...

[Bluntly speaking, Blood magic should be permitted for the same reason that soldiers are permitted to use Machine Guns and Automatic Assault Rifles while civilians are not.  Unless you permit it you cede far too much tactical advantage to those that do.

Against who? Who needs to use blood magic to battle who?

Do the people of Thedas need blood magic to battle the darkspawn? No, because the darkspawn don't use blood magic.

Do the people of Thedas need blood magic to battle the qunari? No, because the qunari don't use magic, let alone blood magic.

Do the people of Thedas need blood magic to battle each other? No, because all the nations of Thedas have essentially signed on to a non-proliferation treaty against its use by adhering to the Chantry's ban.

It's all well and fine to say "we need blood magic to defend ourselves!" but against who? Other blood mages?

There's already a perfectly good safeguard against the illegal use of blood magic: the templars. And quite frankly, the ban on blood magic ensures that only the unethical mages will seek out its use.

IanPolaris wrote...

This is the real reason you "decriminalize" blood magic...so you can regulate it and fight it's unsanctioned use....and given that only blood magic is really good at mind control, that makes it the perfect tool to keep criminals in line (esp magical ones).

What the hell are you saying here? Are you advocating the use of blood magic to enslave others? Isn't that highly unethical and goes against what you were saying before about the responsible use of blood magic?

IanPolaris wrote...

 Also Jowan did not attempt to "murder" Arl Eamon.  His legitament lord deputized him to EXECUTE Arl Eamon.

Maker's Breath, that's the stupidest thing I've heard you say yet. That was a political assassination, pure and simple. Arl Eamon was a non-combatant who was poisoned long before he attempted to depose Loghain; Loghain had no lega.l justification for attempting to pre-emptively murder Eamon.

IanPolaris wrote...

And Wynne is willing to let Ferdan burn and fall to the darkspawn just so her moral hands can be clean.  It's clear who is the better person, and it's not Wynne.  Not by a long shot.  Jowan never tries to kill you.  Wynne might try fewer than four times during the game (five if you are a bloodmage with the original dialog activated).

Jowan is a far better and far more ethical person than Wynne ever will be.  At least he's not a hypocrit.

A hypocrite is a person who acts in contradiction to their stated beliefs. Wynne opposes the use of blood magic. If Wynne tries to have you arrested for being a blood mage, that is entirely in line with her personality and beliefs.

That is NOT an example of a hypocrite. That is an example of you having a bloated sense of self-entitlement. You knew about the ban on blood magic and choose to flaunt it; now you're complaining because someone tried to make you face up to the consequences of your actions

Here's a quarter. Go call a ****ing waaaaaaaambulance.

Modifié par Face of Evil, 28 novembre 2010 - 11:59 .

[IanPolaris]

[quote]Face of Evil wrote...

[quote]IanPolaris wrote...

[Bluntly speaking, Blood magic should be permitted for the same reason that soldiers are permitted to use Machine Guns and Automatic Assault Rifles while civilians are not.  Unless you permit it you cede far too much tactical advantage to those that do.[/QUOTE]

Against who? Who needs to use blood magic to battle who?

Do the people of Thedas need blood magic to battle the darkspawn? No, because the darkspawn don't use blood magic.
[/quote]

Actually if you'd bother to read the codex entries, Darkspawn Emissaries (esp Genlock ones) DO use blood magic.  It's one important reason why Blood magic is tolerated in the Grey Wardens.

[quote]
Do the people of Thedas need blood magic to battle the qunari? No, because the qunari don't use magic, let alone blood magic.
[/quote]

False.  The Qunari do use magic via caged Mages.

[quote]
Do the people of Thedas need blood magic to battle each other? No, because all the nations of Thedas have essentially signed on to a non-proliferation treaty against its use by adhering to the Chantry's ban.

It's all well and fine to say "we need blood magic to defend ourselves!" but against who? Other blood mages?
[/quote]

In the modern world there is a non-proliferation pact against Nuclear Weapons and "Weapons of Mass Destruction" but nations that have them continue to build and maintain them.  Same, same.  There is no reason (esp since any ruler of Thedas with an IQ above that of a pinhead realizes that the actual dangers of blood magic are overbown, wouldn't move heaven and earth to have some blood magic secretly at his disposal...and it's well known that Tevinter does quite openly).

[quote]
There's already a perfectly good safeguard against the illegal use of blood magic: the templars. And quite frankly, the ban on blood magic ensures that only the unethical mages will seek out its use.
[/quote]

False and False.  The Templars are far and away less effective on Blood magic (since the Templars manipute MANA and Blood mages don't need mana absolutely to cast spells) than regular mages.

Furthermore, Templars are fundamenally warriors in tin suits.  The best weapon against a mage esp a blood mage is another mage (esp blood mage).

[quote]
[quote]IanPolaris wrote...

This is the real reason you "decriminalize" blood magic...so you can regulate it and fight it's unsanctioned use....and given that only blood magic is really good at mind control, that makes it the perfect tool to keep criminals in line (esp magical ones).[/QUOTE]

What the hell are you saying here? Are you advocating the use of blood magic to enslave others? Isn't that highly unethical and goes against what you were saying before about the responsible use of blood magic?
[/quote]

"Enslaving" convicted criminals is not only acceptable but normal practice in pretty much all societies in history including this one.

[quote]
[quote]IanPolaris wrote...

 Also Jowan did not attempt to "murder" Arl Eamon.  His legitament lord deputized him to EXECUTE Arl Eamon.[/QUOTE]

Maker's Breath, that's the stupidest thing I've heard you say yet. That was a political assassination, pure and simple. Arl Eamon was a non-combatant who was poisoned long before he attempted to depose Loghain; Loghain had no lega.l justification for attempting to pre-emptively murder Eamon.
[/quote]

Which meant that technically Jowan was operating within the law.  If a sniper is told to take out a Terrorist in Yeman, he is not committing murder.  Same, same.

[quote]
[quote]IanPolaris wrote...

And Wynne is willing to let Ferdan burn and fall to the darkspawn just so her moral hands can be clean.  It's clear who is the better person, and it's not Wynne.  Not by a long shot.  Jowan never tries to kill you.  Wynne might try fewer than four times during the game (five if you are a bloodmage with the original dialog activated).

Jowan is a far better and far more ethical person than Wynne ever will be.  At least he's not a hypocrit.[/QUOTE]

A hypocrite is a person who acts in contradiction to their stated beliefs. If Wynne tries to have you arrested for being a blood mage, that is entirely in line with her personality and beliefs. The same is true if she tries to kill you for de-spoiling the Urn of Sacred Ashes.

Wynne is not a hypocrite because she fails to cater to your bloated sense of self-entitlement. Stop using words you don't know the meaning of.[/quote]

Read some of the Wynne threads.  She tries to get you arrested and killed for being a blood mage (when under pressure even she isn't completely sure about) and then thirty seconds later calls you great and good.

If that's not hypocrisy (and it's one example of many) then what is?

-Polaris

[BHRamsay]

Face of Evil wrote...

IanPolaris wrote...

[Bluntly speaking, Blood magic should be permitted for the same reason that soldiers are permitted to use Machine Guns and Automatic Assault Rifles while civilians are not.  Unless you permit it you cede far too much tactical advantage to those that do.

Against who? Who needs to use blood magic to battle who?

Do the people of Thedas need blood magic to battle the darkspawn? No, because the darkspawn don't use blood magic.

Do the people of Thedas need blood magic to battle the qunari? No, because the qunari don't use magic, let alone blood magic.

Do the people of Thedas need blood magic to battle each other? No, because all the nations of Thedas have essentially signed on to a non-proliferation treaty against its use by adhering to the Chantry's ban.

It's all well and fine to say "we need blood magic to defend ourselves!" but against who? Other blood mages?

There's already a perfectly good safeguard against the illegal use of blood magic: the templars. And quite frankly, the ban on blood magic ensures that only the unethical mages will seek out its use.

IanPolaris wrote...

This is the real reason you "decriminalize" blood magic...so you can regulate it and fight it's unsanctioned use....and given that only blood magic is really good at mind control, that makes it the perfect tool to keep criminals in line (esp magical ones).

What the hell are you saying here? Are you advocating the use of blood magic to enslave others? Isn't that highly unethical and goes against what you were saying before about the responsible use of blood magic?

IanPolaris wrote...

 Also Jowan did not attempt to "murder" Arl Eamon.  His legitament lord deputized him to EXECUTE Arl Eamon.

Maker's Breath, that's the stupidest thing I've heard you say yet. That was a political assassination, pure and simple. Arl Eamon was a non-combatant who was poisoned long before he attempted to depose Loghain; Loghain had no lega.l justification for attempting to pre-emptively murder Eamon.

IanPolaris wrote...

And Wynne is willing to let Ferdan burn and fall to the darkspawn just so her moral hands can be clean.  It's clear who is the better person, and it's not Wynne.  Not by a long shot.  Jowan never tries to kill you.  Wynne might try fewer than four times during the game (five if you are a bloodmage with the original dialog activated).

Jowan is a far better and far more ethical person than Wynne ever will be.  At least he's not a hypocrit.

A hypocrite is a person who acts in contradiction to their stated beliefs. Wynne opposes the use of blood magic. If Wynne tries to have you arrested for being a blood mage, that is entirely in line with her personality and beliefs.

That is NOT an example of a hypocrite. That is an example of you having a bloated sense of self-entitlement. You knew about the ban on blood magic and choose to flaunt it; now you're complaining because someone tried to make you face up to the consequences of your actions

Here's a quarter. Go call a ****ing waaaaaaaambulance.

this

[IanPolaris]

I see. Since all countries in the world agree that weapons of mass destruction are bad, we never have to worry about them being used.



Riight. Let's deal with real people and real motivations. As long as blood magic exists and has more power for the buck at least some rulers/groups in Fereldan will at least shelter them whether the Chantry likes it or not and thus a complete ban like what we see is extremely foolish on many levels.



Should Blood magic be severely controlled and restricted? Absolutely.



Banned? No



-Polaris

[DPSSOC]

Face of Evil wrote...

IanPolaris wrote...
[Bluntly speaking, Blood magic should be permitted for the same reason that soldiers are permitted to use Machine Guns and Automatic Assault Rifles while civilians are not.  Unless you permit it you cede far too much tactical advantage to those that do.

Against who? Who needs to use blood magic to battle who?

Do the people of Thedas need blood magic to battle the darkspawn? No, because the darkspawn don't use blood magic.

Do the people of Thedas need blood magic to battle the qunari? No, because the qunari don't use magic, let alone blood magic.

Do the people of Thedas need blood magic to battle each other? No, because all the nations of Thedas have essentially signed on to a non-proliferation treaty against its use by adhering to the Chantry's ban.

It's all well and fine to say "we need blood magic to defend ourselves!" but against who? Other blood mages?

There's already a perfectly good safeguard against the illegal use of blood magic: the templars. And quite frankly, the ban on blood magic ensures that only the unethical mages will seek out its use.

You aren't far off.  Blood Magic should be studied, both practically and theoretically, because that's the only way to develope defenses against it.  Blood Magic allows a considerable boost in power and the effectiveness of Templars against it is debatable.  By not allowing Blood Magic the Chantry is allowing criminals access to an edge they don't, that is inadvisable at best and criminally negligent at worst.  It's similar to training police in criminal practices, by knowing how criminals behave they can better spot, predict, and stop them.

On the people of Thedas battling each other they do need to worry about it.  The Tevinter Imperium (I believe) still practices blood magic and if you'll recall they practically built an Empire on superior magical ability
.

Face of Evil wrote...

IanPolaris wrote...
Also Jowan did not attempt to "murder" Arl Eamon.  His legitament lord deputized him to EXECUTE Arl Eamon.

Maker's Breath, that's the stupidest thing I've heard you say yet. That was a political assassination, pure and simple. Arl Eamon was a non-combatant who was poisoned long before he attempted to depose Loghain; Loghain had no lega.l justification for attempting to pre-emptively murder Eamon.

And we know all that, Jowan did not.  All Jowan knew was that a man working for the Teryn of Gwaren, one of the most powerful people in the country, was offerring him a pardon in return for eliminating a threat to the nation.  That Jowan didn't question any of this is more a sign of desperation on his part than malice.

[Shadow of Light Dragon]

The poison was not intended to kill Eamon, just incapacitate him. The elven spy at Redcliffe (in the tavern) was stationed there to keep an eye on Eamon's health, and was supposed to return to Denerim if there was any deterioration so the antidote could be organised.



As for Jowan, he was ordered to do something by the bloody Hero of River Dane, after he'd been snatched from the jaws of the Templars. If a powerful teyrn and 'hero' told you to do something, possibly threatening to turn you over to the Chantry/Circle for magical labotomization if you refused, what would you do? :/ Jowan was in a no win situation.

[Hyper Cutter]

It doesn't help that "Blood Magic" sometimes appears to be a wastebasket term for "magic the Chantry doesn't like"...

[IanPolaris]

Hyper Cutter wrote...

It doesn't help that "Blood Magic" sometimes appears to be a wastebasket term for "magic the Chantry doesn't like"...

Which to be honest is pretty much all magic.

-Polaris

[Face of Evil]

IanPolaris wrote...

Actually if you'd bother to read the codex entries, Darkspawn Emissaries (esp Genlock ones) DO use blood magic.  It's one important reason why Blood magic is tolerated in the Grey Wardens.

Oh, don't even question me on the codexes. Darkspawn magic is SIMILAR to blood magic, but it is not blood magic. And the Grey Wardens tolerate the use of blood magic because they use whatever weapons are at their disposal to battle the darkspawn, and blood magic is a powerful weapon.

IanPolaris wrote...

False.  The Qunari do use magic via caged Mages.

LEASHED mages. All indications are that qunari mages are extremely restricted in what spells they may cast, and the qunari rely primarily on technology. And in any case, they don't use blood magic.

IanPolaris wrote...

False and False.  The Templars are far and away less effective on Blood magic (since the Templars manipute MANA and Blood mages don't need mana absolutely to cast spells) than regular mages.

Furthermore, Templars are fundamenally warriors in tin suits.  The best weapon against a mage esp a blood mage is another mage (esp blood mage).

Uh, no. Templars are trained to resist the mind controlling abilities of blood mages (they gain bonuses to mental resistance, which is primarily what blood magic targets) and they can still disrupt spells cast by blood mages. Holy Smite works as well on blood mages as any other mage in the game.

Have you ever actually used Alistair against the blood mages in the game? He kicks ass.

DPSSOC wrote...

The Tevinter Imperium (I believe) still practices blood magic and if you'll recall they practically built an Empire on superior magical ability

The only indication that the Magister Lords still allow the use of blood magic was that Caladrius used it. Caladrius was a slaver and a Grade-A ****.

In fact, the schism between the Chantry of Val Royeaux and the Imperial Chantry occured when the Tevinter Chantry ruled that magic must never be used to control the minds of men.

A does not follow B. Because Caladrius is a blood mage from the Tevinter Imperium does not mean that blood magic is tolerated in the Tevinter Imperium.

DPSSOC wrote...

All Jowan knew was that a man working for the Teryn of Gwaren, one of the most powerful people in the country, was offerring him a pardon in return for eliminating a threat to the nation.  That Jowan didn't question any of this is more a sign of desperation on his part than malice.

He still knew it was wrong. He might have taken some solace in the knowledge that the order came from Loghain, but no matter how you cut it, Jowan was still willing to carry out an assassination for a crime he willlingly committed.

Modifié par Face of Evil, 29 novembre 2010 - 08:19 .

[IanPolaris]

[quote]Face of Evil wrote...

[quote]IanPolaris wrote...

Actually if you'd bother to read the codex entries, Darkspawn Emissaries (esp Genlock ones) DO use blood magic.  It's one important reason why Blood magic is tolerated in the Grey Wardens.

[/quote]

Oh, don't even question me on the codexes. Darkspawn magic is SIMILAR to blood magic, but it is not blood magic. And the Grey Wardens tolerate the use of blood magic because they use whatever weapons are at their disposal to battle the darkspawn, and blood magic is a powerful weapon.
[/quote]

And has anyone had a Genlock Emissary stop long enough to teach a non-darkspawn it's magic.  If it looks like blood magic then according to the Chantry (as read by none other than Wynne) it IS blood magic.  She pretty much says so in the original dialog in the tower (if you are a bloodmage yourself).


[quote]IanPolaris wrote...

False.  The Qunari do use magic via caged Mages.

[/quote]

LEASHED mages. All indications are that qunari mages are extremely restricted in what spells they may cast, and the qunari rely primarily on technology. And in any case, they don't use blood magic.
[/quote]

Facts not in evidence.  First of all, you claimed that the Qunari didn't use ANY magic and I just blew that out of the water.  Now you quibble between caged/leashed.  The fact is that the Qunari DO use magic.  Sten says as much several times.  Now, we don't know if the Qunari use blood magic but we don't know that they don't either.  It's the chantry that gets it's knickers in a twist over blood magic.  No other magic-using group in Thedas seems to.

[quote]
[quote]IanPolaris wrote...

False and False.  The Templars are far and away less effective on Blood magic (since the Templars manipute MANA and Blood mages don't need mana absolutely to cast spells) than regular mages.

Furthermore, Templars are fundamenally warriors in tin suits.  The best weapon against a mage esp a blood mage is another mage (esp blood mage).[/quote]

Uh, no. Templars are trained to resist the mind controlling abilities of blood mages (they gain bonuses to mental resistance, which is primarily what blood magic targets) and they can still disrupt spells cast by blood mages. Holy Smite works as well on blood mages as any other mage in the game.

Have you ever actually used Alistair against the blood mages in the game? He kicks ass.
[/quote]

That's because the game handles NPC blood-magic incorrectly.  The so-called "blood mages" are really using conventional mana-based magic and their most dangerous spells are NOT blood magic spells.  However, do the Mage's tower at high levels sometime as a blood mage.  The templars (other than holy smite) are hideously less effective against you than they are against Wynne.  Why?  You don't use mana to cast spells and she does, and most of the Templar anti-magic abilities target mana.  The mental resistance is nice against any mage but doesn't help against blood magic more than any other type.  Less in fact because blood magic comes with a spellpower bonus.

[quote]
[quote]DPSSOC wrote...

The Tevinter Imperium (I believe) still practices blood magic and if you'll recall they practically built an Empire on superior magical ability[/QUOTE]

The only indication that the Magister Lords still allow the use of blood magic was that Caladrius used it. Caladrius was a slaver and a Grade-A ****.

In fact, the schism between the Chantry of Val Royeaux and the Imperial Chantry occured when the Tevinter Chantry ruled that magic must never be used to control the minds of men.

A does not follow B. Because Caladrius is a blood mage from the Tevinter Imperium does not mean that blood magic is tolerated in the Tevinter Imperium.
[/quote]

There is plenty of at least annecdotal evidence that the Imperial Chantry does tolerate blood magic (read the codex entry on that sometime in Lothering).  Furthermore, the normal Chantry BELIEVES that they do which amounts to the same thing (in terms of needing to be prepared).  In fact the Mage Andralla (after she defected from Tevinter) said as much and it's why she wrote the ritual to protect against domination. 

The fact is (that the Chantry doesn't want to admit), the original chant of light does NOT forbid blood magic.  It forbids mind-control via "Magic should serve man and never rule him".  Of course it wouldn't be the first time the Chantry has rewritten the chant to serve its own self-centered political needs (just ask the Dalish about the Book of Shartan).

[quote]
[quote]DPSSOC wrote...

All Jowan knew was that a man working for the Teryn of Gwaren, one of the most powerful people in the country, was offerring him a pardon in return for eliminating a threat to the nation.  That Jowan didn't question any of this is more a sign of desperation on his part than malice.[/quote]

He still knew it was wrong. He might have taken some solace in the knowledge that the order came from Loghain, but no matter how you cut it, Jowan was still willing to carry out an assassination for a crime he willlingly committed.[/quote]

Perhaps but it was LEGAL and certainly didn't constitute murder and certain was not an evil act.  Non-good and self-serving?  Perhaps, but no more than many other acts when faced with dire circumstances otherwise.

-Polaris

Edit:  By your definition of "assassionation" every Army Sniper in the world needs to be convicted of murder.  The fact is that a legal govt can order one of it's citizens to kill an enemy of the state.  That right has long been recognized as part of a nation's sovereign rights.

Modifié par IanPolaris, 29 novembre 2010 - 09:01 .

[DPSSOC]

Face of Evil wrote...

DPSSOC wrote...
The Tevinter Imperium (I believe) still practices blood magic and if you'll recall they practically built an Empire on superior magical ability

The only indication that the Magister Lords still allow the use of blood magic was that Caladrius used it. Caladrius was a slaver and a Grade-A ****.

And slavery is still practiced in Tevinter.  He's not a criminal where he's from he's a respected businessman (presumably).  Calladrius had to have learned from somewhere and given his level of ability (being able to drain life from others to impower you) it's probable he's not self-taught.

Face of Evil wrote...
In fact, the schism between the Chantry of Val Royeaux and the Imperial Chantry occured when the Tevinter Chantry ruled that magic must never be used to control the minds of men.

Which is their only restriction and a very small part of what Blood Magic can do.  Think of it like steroids, it is perfectly legal to buy and use steroids, it is not legal however to use steroids while taking part in official competition.  Blood Magic could (and I emphasize could) be tolerated so long as it is not used to control men's minds.  This leaves demonology, viewing dreams, and simply using it as a pick me up on the table.

Face of Evil wrote...

DPSSOC wrote...
All Jowan knew was that a man working for the Teryn of Gwaren, one of the most powerful people in the country, was offerring him a pardon in return for eliminating a threat to the nation.  That Jowan didn't question any of this is more a sign of desperation on his part than malice.

He still knew it was wrong. He might have taken some solace in the knowledge that the order came from Loghain, but no matter how you cut it, Jowan was still willing to carry out an assassination for a crime he willlingly committed.

No he didn't.  Let's put it this way, a soldier is informed that an individual has committed treason and sold government secrets to the enemy.  He is then informed, by a legitimate authority, that he is to execute this man.  He does so and finds out later that he had been duped.  Now is what he did wrong?  Yes.  Is he a bad person for doing it?  No.  Jowan can only act on the information he has, he's been told by his Teryn that Eamon is a traitor, Eamon having an Orlesian wife doesn't help, and that's all he's got to go on.  Again that Jowan didn't question his instructions is a sign of desperation, nothing more.  He's offer a chance at redemption and realizing the crime he's committed jumps on the opportunity, as he does later on.  He's a frightened young man trying desperately to set things right, that he fails is a mark against his ability, not his intent.

As for Jowan's willingness to poison Eamon in exchange for a pardon it's not uncommon.  Police will, on occassion offer criminals lesser sentences in return for assistance.  A man going to jail for extortion can get time off if he rats out associates, a drug dealer can get time off if he helps in a sting operation against his supplier, etc.

[Face of Evil]

IanPolaris wrote...
And has anyone had a Genlock Emissary stop long enough to teach a non-darkspawn it's magic.

Yes, actually. In The Calling, the First Enchanter, Remille, allied himself with The Architect in order to learn the secrets of darkspawn magic. He implicitly states that darkspawn magic is SIMILAR to blood magic, but not the same.

IanPolaris wrote...

First of all, you claimed that the Qunari didn't use ANY magic and I just blew that out of the water.  Now you quibble between caged/leashed.  The fact is that the Qunari DO use magic.

Yes, I am guilty of over-simplifying. But the codexes state that the qunari harbor a hatred of magic, and while they do have mages, they are nowhere near as skilled as Circle-trained mages. They even get their tongues and eyes cut out for using "forbidden" spells, whatever those might be.

My point about qunari mages being "leashed" is that their mages are not even treated as equal citizens. They are little better than animals. Qunari rely mostly on their technology.

In any case, this does not change my original point: the nations of Thedas do NOT need blood magic to combat the qunari. Regular magic works just fine.

IanPolaris wrote...

That's because the game handles NPC blood-magic incorrectly.

And the templars are also not used effectively. I know that templars can be very effective against maleficars because Alistair is very effective against maleficars.

IanPolaris wrote...

There is plenty of at least annecdotal evidence that the Imperial Chantry does tolerate blood magic (read the codex entry on that sometime in Lothering). 

My argument comes directly from the codex on the Imperial Chantry.

IanPolaris wrote...

In fact the Mage Andralla (after she defected from Tevinter) said as much and it's why she wrote the ritual to protect against domination. 

The Codex says that Adralla was nearly assassinated by her fellow Magisters for developing defences against mind control. It does not say anything about blood magic being freely practiced in the Imperium. If anything, you'd have to wonder how Adralla would even be allowed to study how to defend against blood magic if every mage within the Imperium was allowed to use blood magic.

IanPolaris wrote...

The fact is (that the Chantry doesn't want to admit), the original chant of light does NOT forbid blood magic. 

The Chant of Light is open to interpretation, which is what created the schism within the Chantry in the first place. It does not give maleficars a blank cheque to practice forbidden magic, though you certainly want to believe it does.

IanPolaris wrote...

It forbids mind-control via "Magic should serve man and never rule him".

And mind control is one of the basic blood mage abilities. Your point?

DPSSOC wrote...

By your definition of "assassionation" every Army Sniper in the world needs to be convicted of murder.  The fact is that a legal govt can order one of it's citizens to kill an enemy of the state.  That right has long been recognized as part of a nation's sovereign rights.

There are a great many debates about the legalities of "targeted killing" in the real world. As a rule, many nations are allowed to kill targets in self-defence.

But Arl Eamon was a non-combatant who was poisoned prior to any military action against the crown. Under the laws of Ferelden and virtually every nation on our Earth, Loghain cannot order Eamon's pre-emptive assassination because he MAY oppose the crown. Even the Landsmeet calls him out on this.

Modifié par Face of Evil, 30 novembre 2010 - 05:28 .

[Face of Evil]

DPSSOC wrote...

And slavery is still practiced in Tevinter.  He's not a criminal where he's from he's a respected businessman (presumably).

Yes, slavery is still practiced in the Tevinter Imperium. But the codex states that Tevinter elves have the ability to literally sell themselves into slavery to provide a better quality of life for their families. That implies that not all elves are simply pressed into service and are recognized as free citizens to some extent. That indicates that Caladrius'' business practices — literally taking people from their homes and chain ganging them — weren't legally allowed.

DPSSOC wrote...

  Calladrius had to have learned from somewhere and given his level of ability (being able to drain life from others to impower you) it's probable he's not self-taught.

How does any blood mage gain his abilities? If he doesn't have an instructor, then they acquire the knowledge from demons.

DPSSOC wrote...

Which is their only restriction and a very small part of what Blood Magic can do.Blood Magic could (and I emphasize could) be tolerated so long as it is not used to control men's minds. 

But mind control is still one of the primary reason to study blood magic. It seems a bit silly for an entire society to allow the study of blood magic and then limit it to only the most basic usage.

DPSSOC wrote...

No he didn't.  Let's put it this way, a soldier is informed that an individual has committed treason and sold government secrets to the enemy.  He is then informed, by a legitimate authority, that he is to execute this man.

There is a huge difference between a man put to death by, say, a firing squad and the poisoning of a political riva. The former is an execution; the latter is an assassination.

I've no doubt that Jowan told himself he was serving his country when he agreed to murder Arl Eamon. It probably helped ease his conscience.

But it doesn't change the fact that he agreed to commit murder to save his own sorry skin.

Modifié par Face of Evil, 30 novembre 2010 - 12:57 .

[berelinde]

This thread is definitely an interesting read. That said, I'm not going to venture an opinion one way or another, just a slightly relevant hypothetical dialogue.

Newbie Templar: Knight-Commander Harrith, what is the greatest danger posed by maleficarum?
KC Harrith: Blood mages use their ill-gotten powers to enslave the minds of others.
Newbie Templar: Thank you for clarifying that, ser.
KC Harrith: Any time, son. Here, don't forget your lyrium.

For me, the relationships that exist between templars and mages, maleficarum and just about everybody else, and between templars and lyrium are some of the most fascinating aspects of the game.

Modifié par berelinde, 30 novembre 2010 - 02:06 .

[IanPolaris]

[quote]Face of Evil wrote...

[quote]IanPolaris wrote...
And has anyone had a Genlock Emissary stop long enough to teach a non-darkspawn it's magic.[/QUOTE]

Yes, actually. In The Stolen Throne, the First Enchanter, Remille, allied himself with The Architect in order to learn the secrets of darkspawn magic. He implicitly states that darkspawn magic is SIMILAR to blood magic, but not the same.
[/quote]

Actually the word he uses is "AKIN" which in fact directly implies that Darkspawn magic is part of the greater "Bloodmagic" family tree.  Certainly any magic that looks like blood magic will be treated as such by the chantry so you're really proving my point on this one.

[quote]
[quote]IanPolaris wrote...

First of all, you claimed that the Qunari didn't use ANY magic and I just blew that out of the water.  Now you quibble between caged/leashed.  The fact is that the Qunari DO use magic.[/QUOTE]

Yes, I am guilty of over-simplifying. But the codexes state that the qunari harbor a hatred of magic, and while they do have mages, they are nowhere near as skilled as Circle-trained mages. They even get their tongues and eyes cut out for using "forbidden" spells, whatever those might be.

My point about qunari mages being "leashed" is that their mages are not even treated as equal citizens. They are little better than animals. Qunari rely mostly on their technology.

In any case, this does not change my original point: the nations of Thedas do NOT need blood magic to combat the qunari. Regular magic works just fine.
[/quote]

Facts not in evidence.  You don't know that the Nations of Thedas don't use blood magic to fight the Qunari nor do you know for an absolute fact that the Qunari don't use it either.  Point in fact OTHER THAN THE CHANTRY, most magical traditions in Thedas are actually quite tolerant of blood magic.

Also, you keep knowlege of Blood magic to fight potential foes with Blood magic, the Tevinter Imperium likely to be the number one suspect on the list.  Same reason why nations keep "Weapons of Mass Destruction" IRL.  The magic is too powerful and too dangerous NOT to use at least for research and possible defense.  I strongly suspect that most nations of Thedas have small groups of blood mages at their command and simply don't tell the Chantry about it, and it's well known that Grey Wardens openly use and tolerate blood magic and no nation of Thedas has told the GWs they can't do that.

[quote]
[quote]IanPolaris wrote...

That's because the game handles NPC blood-magic incorrectly.[/QUOTE]

And the templars are also not used effectively. I know that templars can be very effective against maleficars because Alistair is very effective against maleficars.
[/quote]

No he really isn't.  Alistair's abilities are no more effective against a bloodmage than against any other kind of mage.  Actually less because the Bloodmage will have more spell power, not need to use mana (which renders that mana-drain useless) and thus more resistance to the templar abilities.

The best defense against magic is not templars:  It's magic (on your side).  This has always been so.  Even the Qunari admit this.

[quote]
[quote]IanPolaris wrote...

There is plenty of at least annecdotal evidence that the Imperial Chantry does tolerate blood magic (read the codex entry on that sometime in Lothering). [/QUOTE]

My argument comes directly from the codex on the Imperial Chantry.
[/quote]

Then you need to reread the codex.  The Imperial Chantry does NOT forbid blood magic.  Only mind control and mind control is a small part of blood magic.

[quote]
[quote]IanPolaris wrote...

In fact the Mage Andralla (after she defected from Tevinter) said as much and it's why she wrote the ritual to protect against domination. [/QUOTE]

The Codex says that Adralla was nearly assassinated by her fellow Magisters for developing defences against mind control. It does not say anything about blood magic being freely practiced in the Imperium. If anything, you'd have to wonder how Adralla would even be allowed to study how to defend against blood magic if every mage within the Imperium was allowed to use blood magic.
[/quote]

One follows from the other.  If the Imperial Chantry was not using Blood magic for mind control, then they'd have no incentive to assassinate Adralla.  In fact that fact that Adralla did her research (the bulk of which was done while in the Imperial) is just about proof positive that the Imperial Chantry does openly research and tolerate blood magic.

[quote]
[quote]IanPolaris wrote...

The fact is (that the Chantry doesn't want to admit), the original chant of light does NOT forbid blood magic. [/QUOTE]

The Chant of Light is open to interpretation, which is what created the schism within the Chantry in the first place. It does not give maleficars a blank cheque to practice forbidden magic, though you certainly want to believe it does.
[/quote]

I call "strawman".  Other than mind control and harming others for your personal gain, the chant is remarkably silent on what is and is not "forbidden magic".  In fact I think it's highly likely that Andraste herself was a blood mage.

[quote]
[quote]IanPolaris wrote...

It forbids mind-control via "Magic should serve man and never rule him".[/QUOTE]

And mind control is one of the basic blood mage abilities. Your point?
[/quote]

Actually no.  Mind-control is made uniquely possibly by blood magic, but most bloodmagic does not involve mind control.  So no, mind-control while a part of blood magic, is not a basic blood-mage ability.  It's one of many possible advanced techniques.

[quote]
[quote]DPSSOC wrote...

By your definition of "assassionation" every Army Sniper in the world needs to be convicted of murder.  The fact is that a legal govt can order one of it's citizens to kill an enemy of the state.  That right has long been recognized as part of a nation's sovereign rights.[/quote]

There are a great many debates about the legalities of "targeted killing" in the real world. As a rule, many nations are allowed to kill targets in self-defence.

But Arl Eamon was a non-combatant who was poisoned prior to any military action against the crown. Under the laws of Ferelden and virtually every nation on our Earth, Loghain cannot order Eamon's pre-emptive assassination because he MAY oppose the crown. Even the Landsmeet calls him out on this.[/quote]

Jowan has no way of knowing any of this.  The highest authority and most respected authority in Fereldan assures Jowan that Arl Eamon is an enemy of the state, and offers him a pardon if he will perform a simple, but potentially dangerous but patriotic mission for the good of Fereldan.  Jowan isn't exactly the brightest bulb in the box when it comes to politics, but I think most people given the same situation would agree.  You are imposing impossible demands when you judge Jowan's morality.

-Polaris

[IanPolaris]

Face of Evil wrote...

DPSSOC wrote...

And slavery is still practiced in Tevinter.  He's not a criminal where he's from he's a respected businessman (presumably).

Yes, slavery is still practiced in the Tevinter Imperium. But the codex states that Tevinter elves have the ability to literally sell themselves into slavery to provide a better quality of life for their families. That implies that not all elves are simply pressed into service and are recognized as free citizens to some extent. That indicates that Caladrius'' business practices — literally taking people from their homes and chain ganging them — weren't legally allowed.

Once more, facts not in evidence.  In colonial America, you were permitted to sell yourself into slavery for a set contract length (indentured servitude) usually in order rid yourself of debts.  The Roman Empire in it's day also permitted residences to do the same.  However, that was NOT the only source of legal slavery.  It is entirely reasonble to assume especially since Caladrius keeps everything in writing that his practices were perfectly legal according to Tevinter law which isn't exactly good about recognizing non-Tevinters as people in the first place (and esp not elves).

DPSSOC wrote...

  Calladrius had to have learned from somewhere and given his level of ability (being able to drain life from others to impower you) it's probable he's not self-taught.

How does any blood mage gain his abilities? If he doesn't have an instructor, then they acquire the knowledge from demons.

Most magical traditions in Thedas (the Chantry being the one glaring exception) have some tradition of blood magic and much of this information has been written down.  In fact in Dragon Age Awakenings, you are learn Blood Magic from books, and the First Enchanter had blood magic books displayed quite openly on his desk (only recently removed from the library).  In short, while blood magic originated with Demons to be sure, it's quite widespread enough for Caladrius to have more than an ample source of intruction.  Given that he was a Tevinter Magister, and given that the Imperial Chantry does not forbid blood magic, it's likely he learned it as an Imperial Circle Mage.

DPSSOC wrote...

Which is their only restriction and a very small part of what Blood Magic can do.Blood Magic could (and I emphasize could) be tolerated so long as it is not used to control men's minds. 

But mind control is still one of the primary reason to study blood magic. It seems a bit silly for an entire society to allow the study of blood magic and then limit it to only the most basic usage.

Actually no it's not.  In fact the ability for blood magic to control minds was discovered quite by accident.  Originally blood magic was used as an alternate way to cast powerful spells when you didn't have the mana to do so otherwise.  Indeed the power of blood magic doesn't come from mind control unlike what the Chantry likes to claim.  It comes from the fact that you can use both your personal stamina/manna supply to keep up standing spells AND use the life-force of you and others to actually cast spells all at the same time.  It's like giving an Engine a burst of nitro.

That's the real reason that blood magic is so powerful.  It more than doubles the power-supply (and that's if you don't suck off the life-force of others) of your typical mage enabling him or her to do far more magic and more powerful magic than otherwise possible.  This is correctly shown in the game (at least for PC bloodmages).

DPSSOC wrote...

No he didn't.  Let's put it this way, a soldier is informed that an individual has committed treason and sold government secrets to the enemy.  He is then informed, by a legitimate authority, that he is to execute this man.

There is a huge difference between a man put to death by, say, a firing squad and the poisoning of a political riva. The former is an execution; the latter is an assassination.

I've no doubt that Jowan told himself he was serving his country when he agreed to murder Arl Eamon. It probably helped ease his conscience.

But it doesn't change the fact that he agreed to commit murder to save his own sorry skin.

An assassination given by a legal head of state against a condemed "enemy of the state" is not generally regarded as murder.  I note that US Black OPs forces also "neutralize" terrorists all over the world with much the same sort of orders and I think they sleep very soundly at night doing so.  I would.

-Polaris

Modifié par IanPolaris, 30 novembre 2010 - 05:50 .

[Shadow of Light Dragon]

berelinde wrote...

This thread is definitely an interesting read. That said, I'm not going to venture an opinion one way or another, just a slightly relevant hypothetical dialogue.

Newbie Templar: Knight-Commander Harrith, what is the greatest danger posed by maleficarum?
KC Harrith: Blood mages use their ill-gotten powers to enslave the minds of others.
Newbie Templar: Thank you for clarifying that, ser.
KC Harrith: Any time, son. Here, don't forget your lyrium.

For me, the relationships that exist between templars and mages, maleficarum and just about everybody else, and between templars and lyrium are some of the most fascinating aspects of the game.

Don't forget that Templars use phylacteries, vials of mage blood, to hunt down apostates. What kind of magic do they use to track someone's blood, I wonder?

[berelinde]

Shadow of Light Dragon wrote...

berelinde wrote...

This thread is definitely an interesting read. That said, I'm not going to venture an opinion one way or another, just a slightly relevant hypothetical dialogue.

Newbie Templar: Knight-Commander Harrith, what is the greatest danger posed by maleficarum?
KC Harrith: Blood mages use their ill-gotten powers to enslave the minds of others.
Newbie Templar: Thank you for clarifying that, ser.
KC Harrith: Any time, son. Here, don't forget your lyrium.

For me, the relationships that exist between templars and mages, maleficarum and just about everybody else, and between templars and lyrium are some of the most fascinating aspects of the game.

Don't forget that Templars use phylacteries, vials of mage blood, to hunt down apostates. What kind of magic do they use to track someone's blood, I wonder?

Hmm, good point. Blood is undeniably involved. In this case though, it might be more spirit energy, though. Bloodhounds can follow a scent trail after sniffing an old sock, but I don't think they're using sock magic.

Hmm, I do need coffee, don't I. Maybe I'd better just stay away from the forums until I'm awake.

[Wulfram]

Wynne says that the Imperial Chantry forbade blood magic.



She also gives a different history of Adralla to that in the codex - in it, Adralla is a bard in the service of the Divine, not a mage and there's no suggestion she came from Tevinter.

[Corker]

Shadow of Light Dragon wrote...

Don't forget that Templars use phylacteries, vials of mage blood, to hunt down apostates. What kind of magic do they use to track someone's blood, I wonder?

Perhaps it's a 'grey area'... 
Finn: Ariane.. we need your blood.
Ariane: What? Why me? The Warden’s Dalish too! (If the Warden is Dalish)
Finn: Grey Warden blood is.. different. It wouldn’t work. It has to be you, Ariane.

1. Is this blood magic?
Finn: Um.. blood doesn’t power the spell – it’s just a component.
Finn: It’s.. certainly a grey area, so let’s just keep this between the three of us, shall we?
Dog: (barks)
Finn: Four of us. (To IV)

[IanPolaris]

Wulfram wrote...

Wynne says that the Imperial Chantry forbade blood magic.

She also gives a different history of Adralla to that in the codex - in it, Adralla is a bard in the service of the Divine, not a mage and there's no suggestion she came from Tevinter.

And you believe her?  Given Wynne's over the top reaction relating to anything regarding blood magic or Tevinter, I wouldn't.

-Polaris

[SFWhite]

atunnei wrote...

My issue is Blood Magic is wrong, but being a necromancer and animating the dead is ok?

Very good point.

[Shadow of Light Dragon]

Wulfram wrote...

Wynne says that the Imperial Chantry forbade blood magic.

She also gives a different history of Adralla to that in the codex - in it, Adralla is a bard in the service of the Divine, not a mage and there's no suggestion she came from Tevinter.

I need to look this conversation up for comparison. Thanks The Codex entry, in my mind at least, was written by non-Imperial Andrastians. Or at least by someone who called Adralla 'deeply pious' simply because she researched anti-blood magic techniques.

@Corker - Grey area indeed It seems blood as a component is almost as bad as blood as a source of power?