36 réponses à ce sujet

[BelgarathMTH]

Holy crap! I just finished the battle with Grimgnaw and his party for the first time. Good grief!

I have Tony K's AI installed, so that doubles or triples the difficulty.

On Hardcore, the battle was hopeless. I tried about five times. (I am playing a bard, with Aribeth and Valen.) We were relatively well-protected from anything the lich could do, but the cleric, Grimgnaw, and the minotaur were wiping us out with special abilities, almost instantaneously party-wiping us at every start.

The lich would always cast a Bigby's Hand on Aribeth during its Time Stop, and the cleric would always cast a Blade Barrier. Then the minotaur would knock someone down, kill them, knock someone else down, kill them, basically game over at that point. Maxed-out Discipline skill was useless. He only needed to roll 10 for a DC of 30, with his attack bonus.

I finally had to throw up my hands and turn the difficulty slider down to easy. And I still only won by resurrecting my two henchies over and over, plus figuring out to use the Follow command to make them get out of the cleric's two active Blade Barriers!

I would be very interested in reading posts from you guys about how you got past this battle. Please be sure to mention your difficulty slider setting, whether or not you were using Tony K's AI, your character class, and your henchies.

Modifié par BelgarathMTH, 21 novembre 2010 - 09:01 .

[jmlzemaggo]

The hardest fight I ever had to face in NWN, communities included.
No solution but a bit of cheating. You already found out the hard way which one is the one to go down first. Also the weakest one. Move next to him. Save. Reload. When you reload, not only your party is all around you... and him, but, for a couple of seconds, your foes' hanger goes off. Strike.
There is only one spell worst than time stop: reloading.
But this one is always on your side.
Another one: as soon as your enter that cave, if you don't move an inch from where you landed, they won't react. Basically, you're the one triggering the holocauste.
Nothing elegant there, but it's you against a machine. Just prevail.
But I'm truly surprised though, as I thought I cleaned the place already...

Modifié par jmlzemaggo, 21 novembre 2010 - 09:52 .

[HipMaestro]

I going to be a wet blanket again on this but the devil made me do it.  Once again we are facing Tony's AI of which I have no experience but without that utility running in the background I NEVER have a problem with this battle.

I use either Imp Inv or Greater Sanctuary, first off. Perhaps I should mention that I almost NEVER play a PC that doesn't have max UMD so that in itself changes the potential of any PC drastically.  Anyways, I place all my party on Stand Ground before entering the entryway (If I am a mage, I may also summon an eldar or balor but it is usually overkill). All remain in the transition area until I attack.  Grimgnaw begins his spiel, which I quickly exit out and (making them all hostile real fast) position my PC next to Balpheron, the only Time Stopper.  This guy can be KD'd so easy its not even a contest. Same for Maugrim.

In the vanilla HotU, none of the enemy are true-seers which means DEATH.  Not me... them. And the battle is a mere 3 (or 4, w/summons) against 5.  Not really all that overwhelming odds really.

It's preventing that intial Time Stop that is key. Once the major contingent has moved to flank your PC, disengage from combat,  recast Invis/Sanctuary and release the dog pound.  Valen really loves flanking distracted foes and so does Aribeth. 

As far as I am concerned, once the two casters are dead (or, at least controlled), the victory is just a matter of time.  One nice thing about walking around invis/sanctuary is that you can drop potions on all your party as needed with complete autonomy.

The mix of my party is determined by my PC class.  A wiz/sorc will use Valen/Aribeth, a fighter Deekin/Valen or Deekin/Aribeth.  Did you notice Nathyrra doesn't even get an honorable mention here?  Umm... she has a nice moontan.  I am jealous.

My only complaint is in regards to Deekin.  I tried great lengths to make sure he takes Curse Song when he levels and he finally did.  But the little bugger never uses it!  He could really turn the tide of a battle like this quickly with his high bard level.  Oh well... now if Tony's AI will allow me to get Deekin to Curse I will load it in a shot!

@jml: BTW, I always thought the strongest spell would be "Auto20".  Unfortunately, my spells are usually "Auto1".
@Bel:  Playing at anything less than Hardcore is a waste of my time.  It's like winning the lottery on a deserted island.

Modifié par HipMaestro, 22 novembre 2010 - 12:20 .

[BelgarathMTH]

Hip, one question - without Tony's enhanced AI, does the minotaur use his Knockdown? I know that with it, he uses it over and over. In fact, he doesn't even bother attacking for damage until his opponent is sprawled helplessly on the ground. He also uses Called Shot repeatedly until his opponent has to drag herself (usually Aribeth) across the ground.

Does the cleric cast Blade Barriers? (Yes, plural, Blade BarrierS.) Does he use Heal and Mass Heal on his party? Does he start by casting Premonition, Improved Invisible, and Spell Resistance? And then not attack, but rather keep buffing and healing?

Does Grimgnaw use his Stunning Fist and several other devastating special abilities over and over?

Okay, I guess that was more than one question.

My experience with Curse Song was that it didn't do much against all the special abilities.

You may be right about preventing that initial Time Stop as being key, because if he gets it, the pseudolich casts Mass Haste, Freedom, and a couple of Meteor Strikes.

Modifié par BelgarathMTH, 22 novembre 2010 - 12:35 .

[jmlzemaggo]

Playing that particular battle with Tony K's is probably another story, as that gang is right on you, maybe a couple of feet away, as soon as you enter the cave, and that's the way you're supposed to enter it: unprepared. 
They use everything they have. Everything. And fast.
I never played NWN without TK's AI, so I never fought that one without it. And I always considered it like a real challenge. The first seconds are crucial.
From my memory, Deekin, actually, uses his curse song fine enough, as long as you've let him rest enough of course... you could be so blood thirsty sometimes, Hip... , 'meaning it's probably related with TK's diamond. Now, to be honnest, I usually play on hardcore level only, with TK's, as the hardest one, as I tried it a few times, would have meant my death, but for real. RL talking...
There is only one thing, truly, I'm not crazy at all about TK's gem: Your smarter foes aren't where they're supposed to be waiting for you like seating ducks anymore, but already on your way, which means massive (and smarter) fights, and then, once cleared, more empty areas maybe.
With Tony's AI, any door you open could be your grave's one.
But don't you worry, Hip, I understand some people aren't ready for that. 
Just like I'm not ready going online... 

There is that recent thread about a new override manager. I could use that just for playing NWN with and without Tony K's stuff.
To end up using it full time anyway I'm sure. Unless it's seriously conflicting with some modules... which never happened to me, after several  of those...
I said that many times, but the very first thing that hit me when I first launched NWN 20 years ago was I simply could not keep playing it with its regular AI. No matter how genius it was on our first sight, I would have left for ever... but I found TK's within 5 minutes of search, thanks to the community.

I remember what difference it made. Like day and night. 
Just try it.

Modifié par jmlzemaggo, 22 novembre 2010 - 09:08 .

[BelgarathMTH]

@Hip, I hope we're not starting to get on your nerves with all of our harping about the Tony K AI.

Your advice and insights are still good, and wanted. No offense is meant.

I hope some other posters will come in here and share their own stories about how this battle went for them.

Modifié par BelgarathMTH, 22 novembre 2010 - 09:30 .

[HipMaestro]

See the thing is: with the hak AI or without, there are so many items in HotU that can neutralize those attacks they seldom become an issue unless the rolls begin to go against you.  In particular are those high discipline belts that drop all over the place and that crit immune helm from the maker spirit room.  And the party all have those +10 weapons that cut through all DR, imbued with the altar's black pearl to turn fighter foes into weaklings.  BTW, Aribeth has a nasty whirlwind attack if you equip her properly and she sometimes screams when she does it.   Her pally buffs are pretty awesome as well.

Perhaps you need to better equip your party because they are pretty much godly by that batlle.

KD is a discipline/Str check and Stunning Fist is a fort check. All my fighters have godly discipline and godly fort.  Problem solved.

As far as the cleric (Maugrim), as with the PITA cleric at the end of the OC... force melee.  That about takes care of that issue. As stated in the strategy, Maugrim and the wizard (wut's his name again, the undead guy?) are the only real problem. Take them out let, the others pound futily through layers and layers of pre-buffed allies and it goes rather quickly.  All my tanks have serious DR equipment plus stoneskin, imp invis, death armor, true seeing, protect from elements, protect from spells... I mean really... it would take a mob of priests and mages to deal with them.

The other issue is spell selection if a magician.  Timestop, Mord to lower SR, Bigby or ILGM etc etc.  If worse comes to worst, summon BBOD with your damage shields active and watch the meleers waste their rolls on it. 

If cleric, HotG, harm, harm, harm, harm...  next battle?

BTW, a shifter risen lord is essentially indestructible unless Tony's AI is smart enough to know that Maugrim can Heal it to death.  Never experienced that though.

Don't fret, Bel... at some point I will likely sate my own curiosity and try the AI out.  It's just I'm a sceerdy cat and am happy as a pig in slop when my game plays stable and am looking for no potential, uhhh... "disruptions". I suppose.

BTW, that surpises me that an invisible epic bard can't upset that battle...  very surprised.

[jmlzemaggo]

You see, BelgarathMTH, not your fault, eventually mine, as always, but this is exactly what you get for talking to a non Tony K's user...Didn't you say your life was all about experimentation some place earlier, my dearest Hip? 

[HipMaestro]

Experimentation is one thing, but intentionally leaning into a left hook is quite another, jml. (all apologies to Bel for the temporary derailment of an interesting thread)

[BelgarathMTH]

Er, I might have forgot to cast Improved Invisible. It really helps that much?



Also, I didn't have a lot of buffs on the henchies. Where'd you get the money to equip everybody in your party with +10 weapons and cast all those scroll protections? (assuming you weren't playing a mage or cleric). You sound a lot richer than I was!

[Jthesunshinegirl]

Since this thread did ask for war stories, I thought I'd add my experiences, for what they're worth.
The first time I played through HotU, I didn't have any haks installed. Heck, I didn't even know what a hak was, or about any of the massive online community. I played a pure fighter specializing in longswords, and I walked through both this fight and the beholder fight you mentioned in a different thread with ease. With Nathyra as a companion, if you can believe it (Valen was my other one).
The second time I played I had the Tony K AI installed, and both of those fights required several reloads. Granted, that wasn't the only difference: I was playing a bard/fighter archer, and I may have switched Nathyra out for Deekin (it's been a while, sorry my memory's a little fuzzy). Now unless I was just really bad at playing a bard character (not out of the realm of possibility), these fights should have been much easier than they were. Even using all the buffs at my disposal, it took many tries to beat Grimgnaw, and both of my companions always ended up dead. I also didn't have any +10 weapons like HipMaestro; those probably would have helped a lot...

Modifié par Jthesunshinegirl, 24 novembre 2010 - 04:44 .

[HipMaestro]

BelgarathMTH wrote...
Er, I might have forgot to cast Improved Invisible. It really helps that much?

Invisible or Imp Invis work the same except the latter grants 50% lingering conceal.  Surprise is always a HUGE advantage.  Remember Pearl Harbor?

Also, I didn't have a lot of buffs on the henchies.

You don't need TK's AI to make things tougher if you handicap yourself intentionally, Bel.

Where'd you get the money to equip everybody in your party with +10 weapons and cast all those scroll protections?

Appraise skill, delaying selling high-value items until later chapters, splitting all the poison ammo stacks, scrounge all 5 quests. 

Many scrolls drop randomly all during the game.  I always save them for the nasty battles.  Deekin has lots of buffs like Imp Invis to save the trouble of buying buffs.  IIRC I found or bought a harp of elemental swarm, one of the best spells in the game.

Managing/maximizing all the in-game resources is a game-within-a-game for bean counters.  Apparently I must be a half decent expediter because I always find enough to take advantage of the opportunities.  Leave no stone unturned.

The weapon upgrades not only provide a reliable means to cut through DR but with all the other enhancements (like Haste and True Seeing) you can use the rest of the equipment to address only those "weaknesses" of your party (like AC, Fear protection, Discipline boosts, save boosts, etc.)

[BelgarathMTH]

Thanks, JtheSun. Your experience with this battle sounds a lot more like mine. I also have always found the vanilla game to be really easy. I've played with Tony's enhanced AI for so long, I keep forgetting how hard my experience is compared to someone's who isn't using it.



I especially have to watch myself not to criticize a mod-writer who balanced his or her work for the vanilla game. I've been guilty of not being careful enough about that!

[Countn Coup]

I enjoyed the battle. My character is a Fighter/Rogue/Assasin. He has all the two weapon fighting feats and is armed with two scimitars, The Scimitar of Speed and a +scimitar that I pumped up to +9 added keen, 2d6 fire, regeneration, spell resist etc etc. My crits are 1-12 with both swords which virtually guarantees multiple critical hits. It's awesome. I think my AC was like 42. I had Valen and Deekin with me and we pretty much tore that psycho Grimgraw a new one. I liked Grimgraw in the original so I was a bit bummed about killing the guy but got over that real quick

[BelgarathMTH]

Hmm, so far, it seems that one of the keys to this battle is to have at least one weapon up to a very high enhancement. I think mine was only about plus six or plus seven. I had concentrated on other kinds of stuff like spell resistance, true seeing, and regeneration. It looks like maybe I should have spent that money on extra plus-to-hit-damage-bypassDR. Apparently, plus nine or ten can make a huge difference over plus seven or eight.



Countn, were you using Tony K's enhanced AI?

[Countn Coup]

hi there. nope I did not use Tony K's AI. What I have read so far leads me to believe I should try it out though

[Balduvard]

I felt this fight was not too hard, on Very Difficult with Tony K's AI. Darkness effectively disables much of their offensive actions and enabled my party to clean house (even without True Seeing). Balpheron was my last target since his buffs made him more hardened than the rest (targets in order: Grimgnaw, Koth Uth-Kalin, Maugrim, Crimson, Balpheron). Knockdown immunity on myself and Aribeth, for what it's worth.

Party
-My character: Flurry of Arrows build that I use online (9 Monk/1 Wiz/15 AA by the time of this fight)
--North Wind Bow +8 (forged to +10), Prisimatic Dragon Boots, and Merkil's Helmet
-Aribeth
--Astral Blade +8, Dragon Slippers, and the Helm of Righteousness
-Nathyrra
--Risktaker

[HipMaestro]

Balduvard wrote...
I felt this fight was not too hard, on Very Difficult with Tony K's AI. Darkness effectively disables much of their offensive actions and enabled my party to clean house (even without True Seeing).

Ahhh... yes, good 'ol reliable darkness. Interesting that the custom AI can't deal with it any easier than most other environments.

Just used an enchanter wiz to dominate the minotaur while standing in the untriggered doorway.  That is a real cheesy way to gain an extra party member but then I don't think I got any XP for killing it as the Grimgnaw crew did it for me   I bought Aramil's Blade (+6 w/vorpal) for Aribeth in that battle, so the party was PC/Aribeth/minotaur against 4 short-lived nasties.

BTW, Balduvard... is that build link to a PRC forum?  Never checked that out before and the class refs are totally alien to me.

Modifié par HipMaestro, 28 novembre 2010 - 11:54 .

[jmlzemaggo]

I've only played evocation wizard. Tempting...

[Balduvard]

HipMaestro wrote...
BTW, Balduvard... is that build link to a PRC forum? Never checked that out before and the class refs are totally alien to me.

Monk/Wizard/Arcane Archer? No, Higher Ground does not use PRC. The subraces however would likely be alien to anyone that doesn't play there (I used a plain Elf for my character, with a similar ability distribution to the Aquatic Elf variant mentioned in that post).

If you were looking at the build forums for Quasiclasses, those are scripted additions that involve combinations of existing classes.

Modifié par Balduvard, 28 novembre 2010 - 03:29 .

[BelgarathMTH]

Interesting tidbit about using Darkness - I didn't realize it would help much, since it never seems to hamper me when they cast it on me. I don't know if it's because I usually have Blind Fight pretty early in my builds, or if it's because I can still target easily by just moving the cursor around until it highlights something in red.

Having found both those pairs of Dragon Slippers would have made a huge difference for me. I didn't find either one of them.

Modifié par BelgarathMTH, 28 novembre 2010 - 05:31 .

[Balduvard]

BelgarathMTH wrote...
Having found both those pairs of Dragon Slippers would have made a huge difference for me. I didn't find either one of them.

The Dragon Slippers were available from one of the merchants you encounter in Chapter 3 (Gru'ul), as I recall to my chagrin having only the Prisimatic boots (which are hard to miss if following the "grab everything not nailed down" methodology, west of Lith My'athar) when dealing with Vix'thra.

[Vaalyah]

Ehm, to say the truth, my battle was incredibly easy. While I had had some difficulties with the dracolich (thanks Hip for your help ^^ ), this battle went smooth... thanks to a lot of luck :-D I knew there were a big battle ahead, so I buffered myself (epic cleric), Valen and Deekin with all the "buffable" possible, then we enter the room. After the dialogue, the lich stopped the time, and I was already trembling.

As the time started again, I resisted the spells, Valen and Deekin did their saving throws and we attacked. I use 2 bastard swords and I got (luckily!) 2 critics damages, so the lich has been killed in just one round. Valen killed randomly 2 other guys, and Deekin started casting spells all around. Everybody was killed in about 30 seconds.

O_O

[Xovian]

Ohhh yes I remember this fight, and the many posts on the original bioware forums about this exact encounter during the first few weeks after release, and still some to this day it seems.



Pretty much everyone unless they have seen a spoiler is going to run into it their first time and get creamed. No buffs, maybe not even rested (my case) or even remotely prepared for the battle that is coming. The Bio team did great in that regard. It's something I've tried to have matched in my "challenge" mods I build.



If you go in prepared depending on the type of character your using, it can be fairly easy or very hard. Difficulty level also plays a good part on this encounter. Always play on hardcore mode myself, since it tends to stick with the default D&D rules. The other big thing for the fight is if a player uses the pause feature or not, in the heat of battle, being able to click on your res rod and res a fallen member can change the fight quickly.



I will say this, I liked this specific encounter so much that I have played HotU with various characters just to see how well they do. I haven't used TK's AI, knew about it, but always preferred to leave most official products unscathed. I will have to try it soon. I may end up adding it to some of my own modules to see how much more difficult (if any) it makes them.

[Velkyn Velve]

Paladin/CoT with Nathyrra and Airbeth.  Hardcore rules, no haks.

My first move on that fight was: Using a spell to buff cha, then lay on hand to the lich (the guy dind't had a chance). Nathyrra chased the assasin that was running all over the place while Airbeth engaged the minotaur.

Then Grimgnaw went frenzy and started to attack me while Maugrim just keep buffing himself (how selfish). Then Airbeth killed the minotaur, but recived huge damage, so I told her to hold position.

In the menatime, Nathyrra finally started to fight melee with the assasin and ended voctrious. Then I was still fighting the crazed monk , but managed to defeat him with divine might and well placed hits. Airbeth healed herself with a potion and started to fight against overbuffed Maugrim. Nathyrra and I joined her and we 3 took down Maugrim (that kept buffing himself)

The battle was a mess, and when it ended I said to myself "what the...was that" It developed way to fast, but the result was good. I tink I won because I went for the lich first and I was rested. But I had no idea of the encounter so it was a lucky rest. By the way, Nathyrra is great as an assasin if she is told not to use any spell...

Modifié par Velkyn Velve, 11 juillet 2011 - 08:33 .