173 réponses à ce sujet

[Anacronian Stryx]

iakus wrote...

Anacronian Stryx wrote...

Fist and foremost because of it's size, The Reapers are known to be two kilometers long ships, The Reaper Larvae structure implies it would be no more than 20-25 meters tall when completed(if it's to keep it's form) - Second of all the last scene of Mass Effect 2 shows quite a lot of Reapers and while there is some deviations they do all seem to conform to the same over all shape - If their exterior where to take exact shape after the race used to create them one could expect far more deviance in their appearance.

Most likely the Reaper Larvae is the central/core unit (something akin to the Space jockey from Alien)and the cuttlefish shape exterior is then build around it.  

Which leads to the question:  Why does this "core unit" have to resemble the host species?  Particularly since it's to be an entirely internal component when completed.  I'm inclined to think Reapers don't get many opportunities to get out of their ships/hulls and go for a stroll while hibernating in dark space. As a spacefaring synthetic life form you'd think you take a form designed from the ground up to be the last word in "Reaper CPUs"

It might be something as simple as a homage - in the art book there is a drawing of a Reaper(ship not core larvae) who has a face of a creature on it's back quarter and the text reads that Bioware at some point toyed with the idea that the ships should play homage to the species they where made of this way, That plan was dropped (thankfully in my opinion) but it shows that Bioware has thought about this.

[Rekkampum]

Killjoy Cutter wrote...

Example one:  Bioware, please stop telling us how genetically diverse humans are, when the opposite is actually true.  Look it up.  We're just not.  ****** sapiens has been through at least one and probably two "genetic bottlenecks" in our history as a species that really trimmed down our overall genetic diversity.

Of course we are. We're just not diverse enough to constitute actual subspecies or biological "races".

Modifié par Rekkampum, 25 novembre 2010 - 04:15 .

[Dean_the_Young]

Meh.



I've always squared that piece of bad science with a non-supplied explanation of how in the future, most Alien species have used so much genetic engineering to 'optimize' their genepool that they reduced the variety. Humanity's supposed advantage isn't so much innate, but rather because we're new to the scene, and the tehnology, and haven't had the hundreds/thousands of years to put genetic rewriting to work.

[onelifecrisis]

Killjoy Cutter wrote...

I'm not sure I'm up to explaining one of the core overarching concepts of the entire genre of science fiction in a forum post.

I didn't ask you to. But since you have the urge...

Killjoy Cutter wrote...

Really short version -- element zero, the mass effect, etc, is the "what if?" of the ME setting, the concept that enables the setting and several, well, elements thereof.  Anything that can logically and empirically derived from that core concept is therefore internally consistent within the setting as established.  It's not magic, which allows anything simply by the fiat of being.  It allows what it can be shown to allow.  

If you don't get that, and don't get that distinction, then I suggest you find a professor of speculative fiction at some nearby university and have them try to explain it to you.

Allow me to quote what I said at the start of our exchange.

Onelifecrisis wrote...

Every story has an internal logic that should be upheld. Mass Effect breaks its own internal logic on a number of occasions, but the mentioning of genetic paste is not one of them. It's unscientific jargon garbage, but it doesn't break the plot.

Okay, so Eezo and ME fields - the "central conceits" - can be used to strike (quoting you) artificial gravity, FTL and space wizards off the list. You're saying that genetic paste is different because it isn't something that's allowed by the "central conceit" of Mass Effect. But as I already said there are a great many unbelievable things in the ME games that are not allowed by this "central conceit" and yet are still, for some reason, more acceptable than genetic paste? So far you've ruled out Wizards and artificial gravity and FTL but that still leaves a bloody long list. So I ask again: WHY is genetic paste harder to swallow (no pun intended) than anything else on the list?

[onelifecrisis]

Anacronian Stryx wrote...

Fist and foremost because of it's size, The Reapers are known to be two kilometers long ships, The Reaper Larvae structure implies it would be no more than 20-25 meters tall when completed(if it's to keep it's form) - Second of all the last scene of Mass Effect 2 shows quite a lot of Reapers and while there is some deviations they do all seem to conform to the same over all shape - If their exterior where to take exact shape after the race used to create them one could expect far more deviance in their appearance.

Most likely the Reaper Larvae is the central/core unit (something akin to the Space jockey from Alien)and the cuttlefish shape exterior is then build around it.

Killjoy Cutter wrote...

Nashiktal wrote...

Imagining a giant terminator flailing through space just doesnt appeal to me in a ME game.

As has been pointed out so many times on these forums, so so many times, that's just not what Bioware was going for there, at all, in any way.  The "reapernator" was poorly done, but please keep your criticisms to what's actually going on.

Any evidence from BW to support that claim?

Modifié par onelifecrisis, 25 novembre 2010 - 04:46 .

[AKOdin]

Why the dislike? Because for many (but not all) of the people who saw the reaper, it turned what had been building to an interesting/high quality explanation into an explanation that seemed to betray what had been explained before.

The Reapers had been shown to have a consistent form throughout ME1 and 2 (Promethean beacon, Sovereign, Relic vision in ME2, ending of ME 2). None of them looked bipedal (like the Prothean statutes on Ilos, or the Collectors for that matter). Yet, we are told that a human-reaper larva is going to be a reaper.... and it looks like a giant human with an extra eye. IT... WAS... RIDICULOUS*. Not for video games in general, but compared to the high quality of Bioware games in general and ME so far. Disappointing.
And then this plot aberration is cited to explain why the Reapers bother to wipe out advanced species every 50,000 years or so.

For contrast, compare the reveal of the water dragon at the end of Jade Empire to the Human Larva Reaper.
Bioware has a history of talking publicly about the criticism (justified or not) it receives- I would really be interested in a non-PR filtered discussion of how and why the reaper "boss" was included in the form it was.

All the above being said, I'm still really looking forward to ME3, and where BW takes the Reapers in the conclusion. Yay BW!

*= If you have played Fallout: New Vegas, remember how Mr. House described the reason the BoS had to be wiped out? Same tone.

Modifié par AKOdin, 25 novembre 2010 - 06:39 .

[Hwalkerl]

wookieeassassin wrote...

Yes, it was dumb as hell. It made no sense and will never truly make since. Why the hell would it be shaped like a human? Is it going to fly through space as a giant human and destroy its enemies? Its plain cheese and its now quite apparent plot for the entire trilogy was not thought out before they started making the games. The first game happened, and they decided to start working on the second part of the trilogy. The second game had a crappy main story that was thought up quickly.

Mass Effect 2 is fortunate that it is a game, because the gameplay and recruitment/loyalty missions were quite good. If this were a movie and had to depend on its main plot it would've been a piece of garbage.

I agree!

[onelifecrisis]

AKOdin wrote...

Why the dislike? Because for many (but not all) of the people who saw the reaper, it turned what had been building to an interesting/high quality explanation into an explanation that seemed to betray what had been explained before.

The Reapers had been shown to have a consistent form throughout ME1 and 2 (Promethean beacon, Sovereign, Relic vision in ME2, ending of ME 2). None of them looked bipedal (like the Prothean statutes on Ilos, or the Collectors for that matter).

Well, the human reaper isn't bipedal either. It has no legs at all. But yeah, the other reapers (while different from one another) do have a similar look and feel.

AKOdin wrote...

And then this plot aberration is cited to explain why the Reapers bother to wipe out advanced species every 50,000 years or so.

You can hardly say that it came out of nowhere. ME1 left the question dangling: why do reapers need organics at all? They live in dark space FFS. Then we spend all of ME2's main-plot missions listening to Harbinger bang on about the "genetic destiny" of humanity, his "ascension" of the captured colonists, and being "the harbinger of their perfection". That was enough foreshadowing for me.

What explanation for the 50k cycle would you have preferred?

[AKOdin]

onelifecrisis wrote...

AKOdin wrote...

And then this plot aberration is cited to explain why the Reapers bother to wipe out advanced species every 50,000 years or so.

You can hardly say that it came out of nowhere. ME1 left the question dangling: why do reapers need organics at all? They live in dark space FFS. Then we spend all of ME2's main-plot missions listening to Harbinger bang on about the "genetic destiny" of humanity, his "ascension" of the captured colonists, and being "the harbinger of their perfection". That was enough foreshadowing for me.

What explanation for the 50k cycle would you have preferred?

Right- it was a big question. The BIG question. Why is the big bad of the game, well... bad? 
Reproduction actually isn't bad. It is a powerful reason sufficient to make peaceful co-existence with other species impossible. But answering the question via the giant human w/extra eye seemed to cheapen the impact of the answer.

Q: Why do the reapers want to kill everyone?
A: So they can get it on. And make big metal copies of the species wiped out. With an extra eye. After turning the squisy sapients into goo.

(Also, it does nothing to answer why they bother to hide in dark space.

[Killjoy Cutter]

onelifecrisis wrote...

Killjoy Cutter wrote...

I'm not sure I'm up to explaining one of the core overarching concepts of the entire genre of science fiction in a forum post.

I didn't ask you to. But since you have the urge...

Killjoy Cutter wrote...

Really short version -- element zero, the mass effect, etc, is the "what if?" of the ME setting, the concept that enables the setting and several, well, elements thereof.  Anything that can logically and empirically derived from that core concept is therefore internally consistent within the setting as established.  It's not magic, which allows anything simply by the fiat of being.  It allows what it can be shown to allow.  

If you don't get that, and don't get that distinction, then I suggest you find a professor of speculative fiction at some nearby university and have them try to explain it to you.

Allow me to quote what I said at the start of our exchange.

Onelifecrisis wrote...

Every story has an internal logic that should be upheld. Mass Effect breaks its own internal logic on a number of occasions, but the mentioning of genetic paste is not one of them. It's unscientific jargon garbage, but it doesn't break the plot.

Okay, so Eezo and ME fields - the "central conceits" - can be used to strike (quoting you) artificial gravity, FTL and space wizards off the list. You're saying that genetic paste is different because it isn't something that's allowed by the "central conceit" of Mass Effect. But as I already said there are a great many unbelievable things in the ME games that are not allowed by this "central conceit" and yet are still, for some reason, more acceptable than genetic paste? So far you've ruled out Wizards and artificial gravity and FTL but that still leaves a bloody long list. So I ask again: WHY is genetic paste harder to swallow (no pun intended) than anything else on the list?

And what list is that?  You have yet to actually list off this long rundown of things you can't swallow.

[Killjoy Cutter]

onelifecrisis wrote...

Anacronian Stryx wrote...

Fist and foremost because of it's size, The Reapers are known to be two kilometers long ships, The Reaper Larvae structure implies it would be no more than 20-25 meters tall when completed(if it's to keep it's form) - Second of all the last scene of Mass Effect 2 shows quite a lot of Reapers and while there is some deviations they do all seem to conform to the same over all shape - If their exterior where to take exact shape after the race used to create them one could expect far more deviance in their appearance.

Most likely the Reaper Larvae is the central/core unit (something akin to the Space jockey from Alien)and the cuttlefish shape exterior is then build around it.

Killjoy Cutter wrote...

Nashiktal wrote...

Imagining a giant terminator flailing through space just doesnt appeal to me in a ME game.

As has been pointed out so many times on these forums, so so many times, that's just not what Bioware was going for there, at all, in any way.  The "reapernator" was poorly done, but please keep your criticisms to what's actually going on.

Any evidence from BW to support that claim?

A)  The size -- way too small to be a Reaper.
  Every single other Reaper -- we get to see dozens at the end of ME2, and they all look the same.
C)  Etc.

[The Good Shephard]

AKOdin wrote...

onelifecrisis wrote...

AKOdin wrote...

And then this plot aberration is cited to explain why the Reapers bother to wipe out advanced species every 50,000 years or so.

You can hardly say that it came out of nowhere. ME1 left the question dangling: why do reapers need organics at all? They live in dark space FFS. Then we spend all of ME2's main-plot missions listening to Harbinger bang on about the "genetic destiny" of humanity, his "ascension" of the captured colonists, and being "the harbinger of their perfection". That was enough foreshadowing for me.

What explanation for the 50k cycle would you have preferred?

Right- it was a big question. The BIG question. Why is the big bad of the game, well... bad? 
Reproduction actually isn't bad. It is a powerful reason sufficient to make peaceful co-existence with other species impossible. But answering the question via the giant human w/extra eye seemed to cheapen the impact of the answer.

Q: Why do the reapers want to kill everyone?
A: So they can get it on. And make big metal copies of the species wiped out. With an extra eye. After turning the squisy sapients into goo.

(Also, it does nothing to answer why they bother to hide in dark space.

Hiding? Or causing the same cycle within other galaxies? Something tells me their numbers are too great to be products from just the Milky Way alone. They seem to have the technology to travel to places we deem impossible within our own galaxy, so why not others? 

That, and I can't imagine them just floating around in between cycles playing "20 Questions" with each other. They're probably executing the next cycle for a galaxy right now.

On topic, the shape of the Human Reaper may offer a clue to their motives and behavior. They probably could make all Reapers uniform in appearance if they wanted, but they don't. They choose to make each slightly unique to the assimilated race, possibly to preserve the physical essance. Its like a biographer who has documented every aspect of an individual's life and preserves the body to ensure future generations have an image of the person to go along with the history.     

[onelifecrisis]

Killjoy Cutter wrote...

And what list is that?  You have yet to actually list off this long rundown of things you can't swallow.

It's not a list of things I can't swallow, it's a list of things you apparently can. I've already listed several things in a previous post. You already replied to it. Which started this exchange.
Zone out much?

[onelifecrisis]

Killjoy Cutter wrote...

onelifecrisis wrote...

Anacronian Stryx wrote...

Fist and foremost because of it's size, The Reapers are known to be two kilometers long ships, The Reaper Larvae structure implies it would be no more than 20-25 meters tall when completed(if it's to keep it's form) - Second of all the last scene of Mass Effect 2 shows quite a lot of Reapers and while there is some deviations they do all seem to conform to the same over all shape - If their exterior where to take exact shape after the race used to create them one could expect far more deviance in their appearance.

Most likely the Reaper Larvae is the central/core unit (something akin to the Space jockey from Alien)and the cuttlefish shape exterior is then build around it.

Killjoy Cutter wrote...

Nashiktal wrote...

Imagining a giant terminator flailing through space just doesnt appeal to me in a ME game.

As has been pointed out so many times on these forums, so so many times, that's just not what Bioware was going for there, at all, in any way.  The "reapernator" was poorly done, but please keep your criticisms to what's actually going on.

Any evidence from BW to support that claim?

A)  The size -- way too small to be a Reaper.
  Every single other Reaper -- we get to see dozens at the end of ME2, and they all look the same.
C)  Etc.

I said evidence, not reasoning. I assume you have none?

Also...

A) It's a fetus, not a full-grown reaper.
No they don't. Similar (all aquatic looking) but clearly from different "species".
C) Riiiiight...

Now let's look at the other side of it:

A) EDI SAYS IT IS A REAPER.
There is no B. You lose.

Modifié par onelifecrisis, 25 novembre 2010 - 04:27 .

[Iakus]

Anacronian Stryx wrote...

It might be something as simple as a homage - in the art book there is a drawing of a Reaper(ship not core larvae) who has a face of a creature on it's back quarter and the text reads that Bioware at some point toyed with the idea that the ships should play homage to the species they where made of this way, That plan was dropped (thankfully in my opinion) but it shows that Bioware has thought about this.

I'd find the homage concept a lot easier to swallow if I'd seen a Reaper treat organic life with anything but contempt

"Organic life is nothing but a genetic mutation, an accident."

"Your species has the attention of those infinitely your greater"

Even so, something as simple as a face, or a portrait would be more understandable than a head and arms in what is likely to be permanently sealed into a ship.  THe whole thing was less designed as a homage to humans than as something for Shepard to fight.

[dgcatanisiri]

Why is the human Reaper in the shape of a human? Because designing it like that is in their programming - the Reapers may have originally been constructed in the image of their creators (because they're machines and they had to be constructed by SOMEONE originally, despite their attitude toward organics), and so when they produce a new Reaper, it's core is in the shape of the species it's formed out of.

[Jigero]

1. It was Antii-Climatic, go through all that crap and it's like "this is what the **** they where working on? **** I would have just left them alone if that was the case..."

2. It's a blatant knock off of an old Contra Boss

3. The Fight it self was retarded easy. Stuff before it was actually alot harder.

4. The way you fought it was very generic "herp derp shoot the obvious weak spots"



that's why it sucked.

[mxw10000]

I was really digging the last mission when I first played this game. I have enjoyed some classic games in my time, Contra among them. That is the first word that literally popped into my mind when I saw the boss for the first time. The first sentence that came to me was " Oh come on! Really?!". I just didn't get it. I guess I still don't. I could try to break down the story's plot and manufacture a reason as to why it makes total sense, but the fact remains that it is never really explained (not that I expected it to be, but I digress).



Others have posited that the all the other reapers we see look pretty much the same, and I agree.



But how can that be when they have been at this for millions of years? (supposedly) Wouldn't we see a whole lot of different shapes and varied sizes of them in that last cutscene?



I can only sit and wonder on this 'till ME3 comes out and then we should have a better understanding of just what the reapers are and hopefully how they continue to exist.



Back to the original point, I just had a gut reaction to the sight of that boss and it totally ruined the mood for me. I can see Bioware making that thing as an omage to the contra games, and maybe even to the Terminator series. With that mode of thinking, it makes sense. I just didn't like because I thought it looked stupid, and for no other reason. The battle is still epic in scale, and the after battle scene is gripping. That boss is just the only thing I didn't like about it.



Wow, sorry about the rambling speech. I just wanted to get that off my chest. I feel better now.



PS: Happy Turkey day everyone!

[harmonator62]

Bourne Endeavor wrote...

I believe the hatred was derived based on poor execution than design, albeit I to did not fancy the human skeleton concept either. That being side, in Mass Effect Sovereign remained the universal threat, the immense opposition rapidly and desperation attempting to gain control of the Citadel. We combated and defeated Saren and a subsequent shell utilized by Sovereign in his most vital moment. Prior to fighting Cyer-Saren, Sovereign remained virtually indestructible as it tore asunder both the Alliance and Citadel fleets with relative ease. The Human-Reaper did not every impose such a threat nor sense of intensity. This is primarily due to our interference. Sovereign was not something we could combat directly and it readily displayed its power for all to witness. Case in point, Sovereign was a plot element. The Human-Reaper was merely an enemy and one we could destroy. Even had the battle been mind numbingly difficult, the overall conclusion remains the same. Shepard could destroy it with guns. It was therefore, not imposing nor dangerous even by the wildest stretch of the imagination.

In addition, I would argue its relevance to the plot. Why would the reapers abruptly decide to construct a new reaper based upon a human? Was their intent to frighten humanity? Had they concluded we were the most threatening species due to the destruction of Sovereign at the hands of Shepard? The bewildering science made things all the more perplexing as EDI specifically states the amount of necessary human "goo" would reach well into the millions. Therefore, the Collectors would have to eliminate more than half the humans in space. This is in sharp contrast to the subtle invasion tactics utilized by the Reapers previously. I suppose one could surmise they are in a desperate scenario however it all seemed stretching the bounds Mass Effect had established. If the Collectors were a legion and the necessity amount of captured humans was fewer and/or the captured species was not restricted to humans, I would foresee the events as logical.

Honestly, if I was at the helm of the story. I would have trashed the Human-Reaper as a boss, developed the Collectors more and used the Collector General as the principle draw. This would be accomplished by him either attempting to aid Shepard in secret to prevent the construction of the aforementioned Reaper (read: not human, simply unknown) and upon the conclusion said General would have been our grand finale boss in encounter.

Of course the aesthetic design being cartoonish certainly did not do the Human-Reaper any favors.

^This explains my displeasure with the "human-reaper."

I was disappointed with the fact that reapers changed from just technology in ME to a bio-tech nightmare in ME2. Although we knew that the Reapers harvested biological lifeforms, the process of how biological life was tranformed into energy. I figured they "absorbed" the electrical energy in all life. The fact that Reapers are bio-tech really threw me off. Suddenly all of Soverign's bravado about how biological life's inferiority becomes just egotistical ranting rather than objective observations from centuries of experience.

In ME, humanity and the Reapers could be no further apart. ME2 brings them much, much closer. I'm fine with blurring the lines between good and evil, but don't blur the lines between the ultimate threat to the universe and the ultimate savior.

[Locutus_of_BORG]

Aurica wrote...

No hate from me here.  But it is hard to take the reapers seriously after what you experienced in ME2.  Harbingers silly lines & Human Reaper....

Imagine a human reaper flying through space in one of the below postures...

^That was the first thing that came into my mind!

[Rekkampum]

dgcatanisiri wrote...

Why is the human Reaper in the shape of a human? Because designing it like that is in their programming - the Reapers may have originally been constructed in the image of their creators (because they're machines and they had to be constructed by SOMEONE originally, despite their attitude toward organics), and so when they produce a new Reaper, it's core is in the shape of the species it's formed out of.

While EDI does hypothesize that the Human Reaper may look human because it is their equivalent of reproduction, which is likely, we can not confirm whether their appearances are those of their creator or simply their own modifications. Considering they've existed for over 50000 years, as evidence found by Liara in ME1 suggested (remember, the Protheans weren't the first galactic civilization to vanish), whatever they looked like if they were created - glaring plot hole anyone? - is probably far different from what we see now. No one knows why they do what they do and we still probably wouldn't understand if we could, as their reasoning seems to be based less on causality so much as contingency.

I think the galactic civilization that existed before the Protheans might become key to understanding and defeating the Reapers in ME3.

harmonator62 wrote...

I was disappointed with the fact that reapers changed from just technology in ME to a bio-tech nightmare in ME2. Although we knew that the Reapers harvested biological lifeforms, the process of how biological life was
tranformed into energy. I figured they "absorbed" the electrical energy in all life. The fact that Reapers are bio-tech really threw me off. Suddenly all of Soverign's bravado about how biological life's inferiority becomes just egotistical ranting rather than objective observations from centuries of experience.

In ME, humanity and the Reapers could be no further apart. ME2 brings them much, much closer. I'm fine with blurring the lines between good and evil, but don't blur the lines between the ultimate threat to the universe and the ultimate savior.

Now that you compared the differences, I just thought of something similar from an old television series I used to love: Star Trek. If your comparison is accurate, then it seems that their vision of perfection is kith and kin the philosophy of the Borg, who saw evolutionary perfection in the assimilation of all organic life with technology. Those who resisted, they destroyed, while they enslaved and modified the others with their synthetic technology.

Modifié par Rekkampum, 26 novembre 2010 - 05:32 .

[Il Divo]

Killjoy Cutter wrote...

Really short version -- element zero, the mass effect, etc, is the "what if?" of the ME setting, the concept that enables the setting and several, well, elements thereof.  Anything that can logically and empirically derived from that core concept is therefore internally consistent within the setting as established.  It's not magic, which allows anything simply by the fiat of being.  It allows what it can be shown to allow. 

Not quite.The premise of the setting "Mass Effect" really only covers biotics and FTL drives, and pretty much anything else that we see galactic civilization employ at the start. But there are so many other things that your point does not cover.

The existence of giant sentient space ships? Indoctrination fields? Talking plants? "Dragons' Teeth" which turn people into space zombies once they are impaled upon them? Rachni telekinesis? Saren's cybernetic implants? Bipedal aliens that all think, feel, and act human? Asari physiology? The Prothean beacon?  

There are so many elements that we accept without realizing and need an explanation which does not fall under "Mass Effect fields". None of these proves to be logically or empirically derived from the core concept and really fall under the heading "Reaper technology" rather than "Mass Effect" which can really be used to justify anything since we don't even fully understand the implications of such technology. So in effect it really is just magic, but that doesn't explain why human genetic paste is any more or less illogical than any of the elements listed above.  

Am I the only one who listens to what the characters are saying and reads the Codex entries while playing the game?

If I recall correctly, the issue is that the Reapers want us for our 'genetic diversity' but we are not actually creatures of great genetic diversity. Yet, in Mordin's s conversation he does compares us to other sentient creatures in the Mass Effect universe rather than actual creatures inhabiting Earth.

Modifié par Il Divo, 26 novembre 2010 - 02:36 .

[Crimmsonwind]

I can't speak for everyone else, but my hatred of the human reaper comes from the fact that it does not look like a Reaper to me at all. It looks like a Terminator. The Reapers we see look like ships, not like skeletons. Granted the human Reaper is a "fetus," but how on earth is that supposed to "grow" into a Reaper?



I had thought about it, maybe the rest of the "ship" is built around the skeleton, but I just don't see the point of crafting what is effectively a giant half-formed human if you're just going to surround it in a giant tin can. If this is explained adequately in ME3, maybe I'll hate it less. Until then, I'm going with "Hey, skeletons tested well with people, let's make the last boss a giant skeleton."

[Vaenier]

WHY? why necro this when the same topic is on the top of the first page?

HERE if you cant find it in the first 5 topics on the front page of the forum...

Modifié par Vaenier, 06 janvier 2011 - 12:14 .

[S-A128]

The damn thing nearly killed me thats why