20 réponses à ce sujet

[Ferretinabun]

Am I misremembering this, or does Caradin say Shale was the only woman to volunteer to become a Golem?
Anyone else find this a curious point? There were apparently enough golems to give Orzammar 100 years of peace from the darkspawn, and there was certainly an enormous register of names of volunteers. Yet from their ranks only one was a former-female. What are we supposed to make of this? Is Dwarven culture more sexist/chivalrous than sexually-liberated Ferelden seems to be?

[1xs3thx1]

Caradin seemed to sound more surprised that a female volunteered to do it, rather than a female being allowed to do it. I think the majority of female dwarves had no desire to become a golem, thus meaning it was an unexpected circumstance for a female to volunteer. I do not consider it to be sexist though, merely a preference of the majority of the females, it does not mean they are treated any differently because of it.

[bleetman]

It's my understanding the anvil was forged some time after the darkspawn first showed up. When your empire is being ravaged by constant of war and your race is facing extinction, turning women into statues probably isn't the best idea.

Modifié par bleetman, 22 novembre 2010 - 02:24 .

[Sarah1281]

A bit of sexism the DN can see in Orzammar:

(IF: Female)

FemDN: "Who is my next opponent?"

Proving Master: "Adal Helmi. Another female warrior, and a tenacious fighter."

1. Good. It will be an interesting fight.

2. I need to rest first.



When the match begins:

Adal Helmi: "You are my inspiration, your Highness, and to all of us who follow your example and live by the sword." (VO: Respectful, awed)

1. Thank you.

2. Be proud of getting this far.

3. I'm going to slaughter you.

(IF: Victory) Proving Master: "That was a crowd-pleaser. I can't remember the last time we had two female warriors of such skill."





(IF: Male)

MaleDN: "Who is my next opponent?"

Proving Master: "Adal Helmi. A... a woman, your Highness. She's a tenacious fighter." (VO: Hesitant, speaker seems afraid to say this.)

1. I'll fight anyone.

2. You let a woman fight in the Proving in my honor?

Proving Master: "It was not my idea. Lady Helmi was most insistent. I did not expect her to actually win her first match. Will you fight her?" (VO: Speaker is trying not to push blame around.)

2a. If I have to.

2b. Why not? Should be easy.

2c. No. I'm done with this Proving.

Proving Master: "Please forgive me, your Highness. I never meant to cause offense." (SET: Provings_Offended) *End dialogue*

3. Yes, but I must rest first.



When the match begins:

Adal Helmi: "Honor and glory to your house, your Highness." (VO: Respectful)

1. There is no honor in fighting a woman.

2. And to yours.

3. I'm going to slaughter you.

(IF: Victory) Proving Master: "That was a crowd-pleaser. Many were waiting to see that woman put in her place."

That said, I'm not sure if it's any more sexist than Ferelden. Women fighters there are the exception and not the rule, after all.

[Shadow of Light Dragon]

Ferretinabun wrote...

Am I misremembering this, or does Caradin say Shale was the only woman to volunteer to become a Golem?
Anyone else find this a curious point? There were apparently enough golems to give Orzammar 100 years of peace from the darkspawn, and there was certainly an enormous register of names of volunteers. Yet from their ranks only one was a former-female. What are we supposed to make of this? Is Dwarven culture more sexist/chivalrous than sexually-liberated Ferelden seems to be?

Just remember that the dwarven king of the time eventually had people forcibly turned into golems: criminals, dissenters and political enemies. It's what made Caradin eventually rebel. So Shale may not have been the only female-turned-golem, just the only female volunteer.

[Zjarcal]

Sarah1281 wrote...

A bit of sexism the DN can see in Orzammar:

(IF: Victory) Proving Master: "That was a crowd-pleaser. Many were waiting to see that woman put in her place."

That said, I'm not sure if it's any more sexist than Ferelden. Women fighters there are the exception and not the rule, after all.

Ok, I already hated the Proving Master but now I despise him. Why is there no option to fight him in the proving? Rotten bastard.

[Sarah1281]

Zjarcal wrote...

Sarah1281 wrote...

A bit of sexism the DN can see in Orzammar:

(IF: Victory) Proving Master: "That was a crowd-pleaser. Many were waiting to see that woman put in her place."

That said, I'm not sure if it's any more sexist than Ferelden. Women fighters there are the exception and not the rule, after all.

Ok, I already hated the Proving Master but now I despise him. Why is there no option to fight him in the proving? Rotten bastard.

I suppose that, in his defence, he doesn't say that this is his opinion, just that this is why the crowd loved the fight so much. He is pretty nasty to a DC (although some are worse) but he's always very respectful towards the DN, even when you return.

[Giggles_Manically]

Walking up to him as a DC again in Orzamar is so awesome!



Someone has to post the VO notes for that.

[Zjarcal]

Pretty much all the VO notes say "disdainful", "grudging", "slight anger", and "rolling his eyes".

Modifié par Zjarcal, 22 novembre 2010 - 03:15 .

[Sarah1281]

Proving Master: Oh, it's you. What are you doing back here? Did the Wardens realize their mistake and throw you back? (Rolling his eyes as he says it)

[DC: I want to sign up for the Proving.

PM: I suppose I can't deny you that right. (Grudging)]

[DC: I'd like to fight as Lord Harrowmont's champion.

PM: Being a Warden isn't good enough? Now you have to worm your way into the highest ranks of society? (Slight anger) Never mind. It's your right, I suppose. (Grudging)]



If you talk to him before accepting a task:

PM: Welcome to-- You! What are you doing here? Did the Grey Wardens realize what a poor choice they made? (Disgusted)

[DC: I'm here to defend Orzammar from a Blight.

PM: Then I'll pray to the ancestors for Orzammar. And for the world. (Disgusted)]

[DC: Are there any Provings today?

PM: Yes, as you no doubt know. Prince Bhelen called a Proving in his father's honor. (Slightly hostile) It begins this afternoon, and yes, as a Grey Warden, you cannot be barred from entering. (Slightly hostile, grudging) Come back when we open if you wish to repeat your dubious triumph. Perhaps today the ancestors will be less... whimsical. (Grudging)]

[DC: Are you sure you want to insult me like that?

PM: I mean no disrespect, Warden. I suppose you're here about the Proving Prince Bhelen called to honor Endrin's passing. (Grudging)]



PM: PM: Now, is there a particular name you wish listed? (Businesslike)

DC: You know my name perfectly well.

PM: I'll just call you "Grey Warden," then, and avoid us both some embarrassment. (Disdainful)



If you win:

PM: That was an excellent showing. (Pleased) It seems your uncanny luck still holds. (Rueful)



Now, compare it to the exiled kinslayer DN:



PM: My Lord Aeducan! We heard you were dead. What are you doing here?/My Lady Aeducan! Everyone thought you were dead. What are you doing back? (Surprised)

[DN: I'd like to fight as Lord Harrowmont's champion.

PM: I guess I should have seen that coming. Bad blood with your brother and all. (Commisserating)]

[DN: I'm a Grey Warden, seeking Orzammar's aid against a Blight.

PM: Then I won't take another moment of your time. (Flustered) If you are looking to pay your respects, though, your brother called a Proving to honor your father's memory. (Curious) Would you like to take part? (Curious)]



PM: Now, is there a particular name you wish listed? (Businesslike)

DN: You know my name perfectly well.

PM: I'll just call you "Grey Warden," since you're no longer of House Aeducan. (Sympathetic)



Before accepting a task:

PM: My Lady Aeducan! I'd recognize you anywhere. I heard you were dead!/My Lord Aeducan! You've graced this arena so often I could never forget your face. We heard you were dead! (Shocked and pleased) What brings you back here? (Curious)

DN: Are there any Provings today?

PM: Of course. Your brother called for a showing of Orzammar's best fighters, to honor your father's memory.(Interested) It starts this afternoon. Come back if you want to watch... or sign up. These grounds are honored by your presence. (Respectful)



When you win:

PM: Exactly what I'd expect from an Aeducan. (Proud)



So really, it's no surprise that I'm quite fond of him since he treats the DN better than most people do and people who prefer the DC...aren't.

[EccentricSage]

Dwarven society is sexist, and was likely more sexist back when the Anvil was created. After all, the first female warrior cut out her tongue in protest, and now there is a whole order of Silent Sisters who ritualisticly cut out their tongues to prove themselves worthy. Men don't have to do that ****.



Likewise, women climb the ranks of their society often times based on who they're having sex with. It's pretty strongly implied that the men are held in higher regard than women, and have had a lot more control over society, with women like Branka seeming to be rare exceptions.

[Herr Uhl]

EccentricSage wrote...

Dwarven society is sexist, and was likely more sexist back when the Anvil was created. After all, the first female warrior cut out her tongue in protest, and now there is a whole order of Silent Sisters who ritualisticly cut out their tongues to prove themselves worthy. Men don't have to do that ****.

Likewise, women climb the ranks of their society often times based on who they're having sex with. It's pretty strongly implied that the men are held in higher regard than women, and have had a lot more control over society, with women like Branka seeming to be rare exceptions.

After they got accepted as warrior cast if female, they didn't have to do that. Now they just maim themselves because of tradition, which I find utterly pointless.

[Sarah1281]

I find it not only pointless but also rather damaging to their cause. The only female warriors who seem to automatically get taken seriously are the Silent Sisters and their self-mutilation means they can't even function on their own and so are obviously not a threat to the established order.

[Skadi_the_Evil_Elf]

I find it an excellent tradition, the removal of one's tounge. All the communication needed then is a mace in the face or a shield bash upside the head.



Sweet and to the point. No need for uneccesary speech.

[Sarah1281]

You'd think you could just ignore 'unnecessary speech' by not talking instead of ripping out your tongue so you literally have no choice about not speaking.

[Herr Uhl]

Skadi_the_Evil_Elf wrote...

I find it an excellent tradition, the removal of one's tounge. All the communication needed then is a mace in the face or a shield bash upside the head.

Sweet and to the point. No need for uneccesary speech.

But it makes eating really difficult.

[Skadi_the_Evil_Elf]

Herr Uhl wrote...

Skadi_the_Evil_Elf wrote...

I find it an excellent tradition, the removal of one's tounge. All the communication needed then is a mace in the face or a shield bash upside the head.

Sweet and to the point. No need for uneccesary speech.

But it makes eating really difficult.

 

Not really, just tasting anything difficult. Not that tasting matters anyway, given everything I keep hearing about dwarven and Ferelden food, ripping one's tounge out might actually be a blessing.

[Herr Uhl]

Skadi_the_Evil_Elf wrote...

Herr Uhl wrote...

Skadi_the_Evil_Elf wrote...

I find it an excellent tradition, the removal of one's tounge. All the communication needed then is a mace in the face or a shield bash upside the head.

Sweet and to the point. No need for uneccesary speech.

But it makes eating really difficult.

 

Not really, just tasting anything difficult. Not that tasting matters anyway, given everything I keep hearing about dwarven and Ferelden food, ripping one's tounge out might actually be a blessing.

I'd imagine that it would make chewing hard. Troubles with positioning the food.

[Asepsis]

I take the sexist dialogue options as giving the male characters the option of being personally sexist. I think that there are sexist aspects of Dwarven culture, but almost every culture in Ferelden is sexist to some degree.

I also think that what the silent sisters do isn't so bad. A lot of cultures have rituals they do that affect the body. Some of my Grandma's family (I don't think they do it anymore) had tattoos placed around their mouth (Something only the women did) and I I know to Western standards these tattoos would be ugly and unseemly (and super painful) but for them it's normal.

I think the fact they cut their tongues out shows extreme dedication, it means there is absolutely no turning back and they are 100% devoted to the Silent Sister order. I'm pretty sure that's also a part of it, on top of the whole reverence thing.

Also I took Caridin remarking on how she was the only one who volunteered as meaning that there may have been other female golems, they just might have been forced into it.

Modifié par Asepsis, 24 novembre 2010 - 11:32 .

[Sarah1281]

No one is questioning their dedication but since the only women fighters who seem to get universal respect are the Silent Sisters who, again, are incapable of living normal lives now that keeps women fighters rare as not everyone is willing to give up their entire life for a few years of fighting. If the males had an order like the Silent Sisters it would be one thing as that wouldn't be hurting the male fighters at all but the fact the women can either get respect or a life outside of fighting, I maintain that while the Silent Sisters are very dedicated and well-meaning, they are hurting their cause.