124 réponses à ce sujet

[Nerivant]

Sylvius the Mad wrote...

bsbcaer wrote...

There's a combat log in Baldur's Gate?

Yes.  It's in the text box, the same place as the conversation log.

In before "there's a conversation log?"

[bsbcaer]

Xewaka wrote...

shepard_lives wrote...

Sylvius the Mad wrote...

shepard_lives wrote...

Also, I think it's excessive to ask that the devs show us the equation to convert item usefulness into stars. By that same logic, all combat calculations should be shown to us too.

And they should.  Absolutely all the combat calculations should be available to us.

I'm appalled this isn't always the case.

Ah, Sylvius, you old nutball. I knew you would answer is such a way.
Your gaming life must be quite full of disappointments. You're a rather romantic figure, you know. Like a tragic hero.

He's right, though. I've just started replaying Baldur's Gate and seeing each roll component in the combat log is a treat.

So you just want to see something where it says "Toggle Hawke hits Hurlock for 8 points of damage"???  If you don't mind my asking, how does this add to your enjoyment of the game?

[Sylvius the Mad]

bsbcaer wrote...

So you just want to see something where it says "Toggle Hawke hits Hurlock for 8 points of damage"???  If you don't mind my asking, how does this add to your enjoyment of the game?

It's not just that he hits and for how much damage, but what circumstances impacted his ability to do that.  What were the penalties and bonuses at work?

But also, yes, simply knowing that he hit for a certain amount of damage allows quick calcuations to determine things like damage resistance.  In DAO, if you threw a Fireball into a crowded room and some of your targets were resistant to fire, would you know which ones?

[Qset]

Archereon wrote...

Seb Hanlon wrote...

Brockololly wrote...

Mike Laidlaw wrote...
Stars are something like tiers, but whereas materials only affected base stats, stars account for special properties on the items and are more dynamic.

A 5 star ring for a mage might only register as 1 star for a warrior, were it giving you +magic and +mana. Sure, there's a very tiny reason a warrior might want more magic (magic resist, mostly), but there's LOTS of reasons a mage would want to push that stat up.

Ok, but will it be clear as to how the star ratings are being formulated? Like you said, maybe a ring is better for a mage than a warrior given it does X for magic and Y for mana, but will that specific blurb about why its been given that star rating be evident in the game? Or is that just something you'll figure out by being able to see the full stats on the given item?

Bingo. Stars are for first-glance assessment; we've additionally tried to make the stats and effects of equipment and items more clearly and explicitly visible in the GUIs than they were in Origins.

But will star ratings be god when chosing equipment?  Or will there be some differentiation of gear choice based on class builds?

I would hope that, on higher difficulties, one must consider their gear and runes more carefully than on lower ones.

More interestingly, will they use the star system to price gear for both buying and selling? My guess is yes because this would be a relatively easy way to get consistent pricing across NPC vendors ( if they chose to do that of course)

[Qset]

Nerivant wrote...

Sylvius the Mad wrote...

bsbcaer wrote...

There's a combat log in Baldur's Gate?

Yes.  It's in the text box, the same place as the conversation log.

In before "there's a conversation log?"

I wish DA series had a full conversation log.

agreed that a combat log would be nice as well after all the game is displaying them above peoples heads as an option already, appreciate that logging those numbers would be a slight performance overhead but not much.

[Sharn01]

Xewaka wrote...

Atakuma wrote...

ErichHartmann wrote...

Vote yes for a combat log toggle. Win/win for everyone except BioWare who hates toggles right now.

Why do you hate kittens?

They're ball shaped. They deserve to be punted.

Upsettingshorts wrote...

I think the issue comes down to the rules being vague. Rules shouldn't be vague. That just leads to confusion and misunderstanding.

As an avid tabletop player, I agree. Rules must be known for playing.

This is actually something that bugs me a lot with modern games.  The only way to actually know the rules is experimentation, and even then its not exact, short of opening up the games files and breaking down all the information there is no way to really tell.

[Qset]

Sharn01 wrote...

Xewaka wrote...

Atakuma wrote...

ErichHartmann wrote...

Vote yes for a combat log toggle. Win/win for everyone except BioWare who hates toggles right now.

Why do you hate kittens?

They're ball shaped. They deserve to be punted.

Upsettingshorts wrote...

I think the issue comes down to the rules being vague. Rules shouldn't be vague. That just leads to confusion and misunderstanding.

As an avid tabletop player, I agree. Rules must be known for playing.

This is actually something that bugs me a lot with modern games.  The only way to actually know the rules is experimentation, and even then its not exact, short of opening up the games files and breaking down all the information there is no way to really tell.

and let's face it if the game shipped with a good combat log option then bugs such as the dagger, crossbow and longbow/short bow damage issues would have had less chance of making it through play testing and out into the wild. Of course, the combat log could have bugs as well but any decent play tester would have quickly identified that a possible issue might exist there if a combat log was present.

[Peter Thomas]

Stars:

An item with no properties that is appropriate to your level will be 2 stars. If it's lower, it will be 1 star (or 0, if really bad). If it's a weapon or something not really usable/appropriate for your class, it will be less stars as well. Lets assume an appropriate ring that can be used by any class. Your "star" score is 2.0.

Each additional item property on the item adds to that number, but the amount it adds is based on the assumed utility to the class examining it. This is an entirely arbitrary number which acts as a general guide. Let's use Strength as an example. Strength is important for a Warrior, so each Strength property adds 1.0 to the star rating. For Rogues and Mages, Strength is less important, so it only add 0.25. A ring with a power level 2 Strength property on it would have 4 stars for a Warrior, but only 2.5 stars if examined by a Rogue or Mage. When you level up, that same ring might not be as useful anymore. It might then appear as only 3.5 stars for the Warrior, and 2 stars for the Rogue and Mage. You'd have to find a new, better 4 star ring.

Those numbers are just an example of how the system works, and not real game content. It's not intended to be perfect, but an average player should find it useful. Specific builds may find utility in using items that have a lower star rating, but whose properties are much more suited to their specific role/style of play.



Armor:

Armor works a bit differently than it did in DAO. DAO's system was that your armor value is directly subtracted from damage dealt to you. This led to later situations where Warriors would have tons of armor and Mages/Rogues had little. In order for Warriors to be hurt, enemies would have to do tons of damage, but that same damage amount would completely destroy the other classes in a few hits.

The armor system that we have now is that each piece of armor adds to the Armor property on your character. Against a creature of your level, a given Armor score absorbs a certain percentage of the damage done against you. For example, a full suit of Heavy armor at first level could give a Warrior 40 Armor. This amount of armor against a normal level 1 creature will absorb 80% of the physical damage it does. The chest piece might give you 20 Armor, the helm 10, the gloves 5 and the boots 5 (for example). The Warrior might then equip a shield, boosting his Armor up to 60. He now absorbs 85% of the physical damage done to him. When he levels up, though, an Armor score of 60 will only absorb 82% of the damage done by a normal level 2 creature. Finding better equipment will allow him to keep the amount of damage he absorbs high. These numbers are all examples, of course.

Different classes of armor have different ranges for the amount of Armor they give and the requirements for using them, but they all function in the same way. Your character sheet tells you what your total Armor score is, and also the percentage of physical damage that that score will absorb against a normal equal level creature.

Modifié par Peter Thomas, 22 novembre 2010 - 11:40 .

[Xewaka]

Peter Thomas wrote...

Stars:

An item with no properties that is appropriate to your level will be 2 stars. If it's lower, it will be 1 star (or 0, if really bad). If it's a weapon or something not really usable/appropriate for your class, it will be less stars as well. Lets assume an appropriate ring that can be used by any class. Your "star" score is 2.0.

Each additional item property on the item adds to that number, but the amount it adds is based on the assumed utility to the class examining it. This is an entirely arbitrary number which acts as a general guide. Let's use Strength as an example. Strength is important for a Warrior, so each Strength property adds 1.0 to the star rating. For Rogues and Mages, Strength is less important, so it only add 0.25. A ring with a power level 2 Strength property on it would have 4 stars for a Warrior, but only 2.5 stars if examined by a Rogue or Mage. When you level up, that same ring might not be as useful anymore. It might then appear as only 3.5 stars for the Warrior, and 2 stars for the Rogue and Mage. You'd have to find a new, better 4 star ring.

Those numbers are just an example of how the system works, and not real game content. It's not intended to be perfect, but an average player should find it useful. Specific builds may find utility in using items that have a lower star rating, but whose properties are much more suited to their specific role/style of play.



Armor:

Armor works a bit differently than it did in DAO. DAO's system was that your armor value is directly subtracted from damage dealt to you. This led to later situations where Warriors would have tons of armor and Mages/Rogues had little. In order for Warriors to be hurt, enemies would have to do tons of damage, but that same damage amount would completely destroy the other classes in a few hits.

The armor system that we have now is that each piece of armor adds to the Armor property on your character. Against a creature of your level, a given Armor score absorbs a certain percentage of the damage done against you. For example, a full suit of Heavy armor at first level could give a Warrior 40 Armor. This amount of armor against a normal level 1 creature will absorb 80% of the physical damage it does. The chest piece might give you 20 Armor, the helm 10, the gloves 5 and the boots 5 (for example). The Warrior might then equip a shield, boosting his Armor up to 60. He now absorbs 85% of the physical damage done to him. When he levels up, though, an Armor score of 60 will only absorb 82% of the damage done by a normal level 2 creature. Finding better equipment will allow him to keep the amount of damage he absorbs high. These numbers are all examples, of course.

Different classes of armor have different ranges for the amount of Armor they give and the requirements for using them, but they all function in the same way. Your character sheet tells you what your total Armor score is, and also the percentage of physical damage that that score will absorb against a normal equal level creature.

I am curious, will we see direct relation numbers on our character sheet, or in a theoretical "game manual"? For example, X amount of strenght equals + Y damage and +Z melee hit chance? Or will this be "hidden" in the system?
As a pen and paper roleplayer, this small tibdits of info in the sheet are invaluable.
Nonetheless, this was all good info. Thank you.

Modifié par Xewaka, 23 novembre 2010 - 12:34 .

[Sylvius the Mad]

Peter Thomas wrote...

Stars:

An item with no properties that is appropriate to your level will be 2 stars. If it's lower, it will be 1 star (or 0, if really bad). If it's a weapon or something not really usable/appropriate for your class, it will be less stars as well. Lets assume an appropriate ring that can be used by any class. Your "star" score is 2.0.

Each additional item property on the item adds to that number, but the amount it adds is based on the assumed utility to the class examining it. This is an entirely arbitrary number which acts as a general guide. Let's use Strength as an example. Strength is important for a Warrior, so each Strength property adds 1.0 to the star rating. For Rogues and Mages, Strength is less important, so it only add 0.25. A ring with a power level 2 Strength property on it would have 4 stars for a Warrior, but only 2.5 stars if examined by a Rogue or Mage. When you level up, that same ring might not be as useful anymore. It might then appear as only 3.5 stars for the Warrior, and 2 stars for the Rogue and Mage. You'd have to find a new, better 4 star ring.

Those numbers are just an example of how the system works, and not real game content. It's not intended to be perfect, but an average player should find it useful. Specific builds may find utility in using items that have a lower star rating, but whose properties are much more suited to their specific role/style of play.

That was awesome, Peter.  Thank you.

I still hope to see the actual equations when the game is released (or at least a formal definition of the word "appropriate" in this context, but this explanation was hugely valuable.

The armour section was even better.

Modifié par Sylvius the Mad, 23 novembre 2010 - 12:27 .

[Shevy]

Thanks for the info Peter. I'm curious about that star system.

A question about the armor changes:

So , in your example a warrior with 40 armor has 80% physical absorb. How much armor would a rogue need to reach the same percentage of absorb? From what I understood, he would need a lesser armor value to gain the same absorb. Is that correct?

Modifié par Shevy_001, 23 novembre 2010 - 12:45 .

[crimzontearz]

Archereon wrote...

crimzontearz wrote...

I think you are right TMP


All this points toward an Hybrid system between ME2 and DAo....let's hope it also means the introduction of NG+

God no.  Just turn the game on casual, and you get all the fun of NG+...

I did not know "casual" meant you get all your gear back + level + abilities

you "really" think people like NG+ because it makes the game a cakewalk?

luckily the devs know otherwise

[Peter Thomas]

Xewaka wrote...

I am curious, will we see direct relation numbers on our character sheet, or in a theoretical "game manual"? For example, X amount of strenght equals + Y damage and +Z melee hit chance? Or will this be "hidden" in the system?

I can't talk about other sources of information, but on your character sheet, when you put a point in a stat, you see the value of the derived property change as well.

[Peter Thomas]

Shevy_001 wrote...

Thanks for the info Peter. I'm curious about that star system.

A question about the armor changes:

So , in your example a warrior with 40 armor has 80% physical absorb. How much armor would a rogue need to reach the same percentage of absorb? From what I understood, he would need a lesser armor value to gain the same absorb. Is that correct?

No, all classes would need 40 Armor (in the example) to absorb 80%. If the armor the Rogue is wearing only gives him 35 Armor (because it's not Heavy), then he would absorb less damage (say 60% in this example).

[Ortaya Alevli]

Peter Thomas wrote...

Xewaka wrote...

I am curious, will we see direct relation numbers on our character sheet, or in a theoretical "game manual"? For example, X amount of strenght equals + Y damage and +Z melee hit chance? Or will this be "hidden" in the system?

I can't talk about other sources of information, but on your character sheet, when you put a point in a stat, you see the value of the derived property change as well.

But will we have a chance to know that each point in STR increases a dual wielder's damage by .6 points without having to check it out on the wiki?

[crimzontearz]

hey peter.......seriously since you seem to have an eye on this thread (I am flattered)...any word on NG+? -smiles innocently-

[hangmans tree]

Peter Thomas wrote...

Stars:

An item with no properties that is appropriate to your level will be 2 stars. If it's lower, it will be 1 star (or 0, if really bad). If it's a weapon or something not really usable/appropriate for your class, it will be less stars as well. Lets assume an appropriate ring that can be used by any class. Your "star" score is 2.0.

Each additional item property on the item adds to that number, but the amount it adds is based on the assumed utility to the class examining it. This is an entirely arbitrary number which acts as a general guide. Let's use Strength as an example. Strength is important for a Warrior, so each Strength property adds 1.0 to the star rating. For Rogues and Mages, Strength is less important, so it only add 0.25. A ring with a power level 2 Strength property on it would have 4 stars for a Warrior, but only 2.5 stars if examined by a Rogue or Mage. When you level up, that same ring might not be as useful anymore. It might then appear as only 3.5 stars for the Warrior, and 2 stars for the Rogue and Mage. You'd have to find a new, better 4 star ring.

Those numbers are just an example of how the system works, and not real game content. It's not intended to be perfect, but an average player should find it useful. Specific builds may find utility in using items that have a lower star rating, but whose properties are much more suited to their specific role/style of play.



Armor:

Armor works a bit differently than it did in DAO. DAO's system was that your armor value is directly subtracted from damage dealt to you. This led to later situations where Warriors would have tons of armor and Mages/Rogues had little. In order for Warriors to be hurt, enemies would have to do tons of damage, but that same damage amount would completely destroy the other classes in a few hits.

The armor system that we have now is that each piece of armor adds to the Armor property on your character. Against a creature of your level, a given Armor score absorbs a certain percentage of the damage done against you. For example, a full suit of Heavy armor at first level could give a Warrior 40 Armor. This amount of armor against a normal level 1 creature will absorb 80% of the physical damage it does. The chest piece might give you 20 Armor, the helm 10, the gloves 5 and the boots 5 (for example). The Warrior might then equip a shield, boosting his Armor up to 60. He now absorbs 85% of the physical damage done to him. When he levels up, though, an Armor score of 60 will only absorb 82% of the damage done by a normal level 2 creature. Finding better equipment will allow him to keep the amount of damage he absorbs high. These numbers are all examples, of course.

Different classes of armor have different ranges for the amount of Armor they give and the requirements for using them, but they all function in the same way. Your character sheet tells you what your total Armor score is, and also the percentage of physical damage that that score will absorb against a normal equal level creature.

Now I'm not sure I like this system. Again, some of the scaling appear adn I think some values should be constant. You refer to "the same level creature" doing damage - I take it if the creature is powerful/high level it can "bypass" weaker/lower level equipement?
I'd have to see and experienc it to nake my mind about it but it feels too lucid for me.

[Sylvius the Mad]

hangmans tree wrote...

Now I'm not sure I like this system. Again, some of the scaling appear adn I think some values should be constant. You refer to "the same level creature" doing damage - I take it if the creature is powerful/high level it can "bypass" weaker/lower level equipement?

I was worried about that too on first reading (particularly in the armour section), but ultimately I don't think that's what he said.

What he described doesn't actually require any scaling.  In his example, a level 1 character facing a level 1 foe while wearing 60 points of armour would absorb 85% of his attacker's damage.  While a level 2 character facing a level 2 foe while wearing 60 points of armour would absorb 82% of his attacker's damage.

The only thing this tells us is that level 2 attackers are better at bypassing armour than level 1 attackers are.  And nothing about that doesn't make sense.

[hangmans tree]

Sylvius the Mad wrote...

hangmans tree wrote...

Now I'm not sure I like this system. Again, some of the scaling appear adn I think some values should be constant. You refer to "the same level creature" doing damage - I take it if the creature is powerful/high level it can "bypass" weaker/lower level equipement?

I was worried about that too on first reading (particularly in the armour section), but ultimately I don't think that's what he said.

What he described doesn't actually require any scaling.  In his example, a level 1 character facing a level 1 foe while wearing 60 points of armour would absorb 85% of his attacker's damage.  While a level 2 character facing a level 2 foe while wearing 60 points of armour would absorb 82% of his attacker's damage.

The only thing this tells us is that level 2 attackers are better at bypassing armour than level 1 attackers are.  And nothing about that doesn't make sense.

I think that this lvl2 attacker should be better at dealing damage not decrising ones armour. In this case not only lvl2 deals greater damage (class progress I gueass) but he bypasses the armour by higher margin too.

I dont know all the details of this system so I spaculate a bit I'm sure. But this is how it looks

[Vena_86]

Peter Thomas wrote...

Stars:

An item with no properties that is appropriate to your level will be 2 stars. If it's lower, it will be 1 star (or 0, if really bad). If it's a weapon or something not really usable/appropriate for your class, it will be less stars as well. Lets assume an appropriate ring that can be used by any class. Your "star" score is 2.0.

Each additional item property on the item adds to that number, but the amount it adds is based on the assumed utility to the class examining it. This is an entirely arbitrary number which acts as a general guide. Let's use Strength as an example. Strength is important for a Warrior, so each Strength property adds 1.0 to the star rating. For Rogues and Mages, Strength is less important, so it only add 0.25. A ring with a power level 2 Strength property on it would have 4 stars for a Warrior, but only 2.5 stars if examined by a Rogue or Mage. When you level up, that same ring might not be as useful anymore. It might then appear as only 3.5 stars for the Warrior, and 2 stars for the Rogue and Mage. You'd have to find a new, better 4 star ring.

Those numbers are just an example of how the system works, and not real game content. It's not intended to be perfect, but an average player should find it useful. Specific builds may find utility in using items that have a lower star rating, but whose properties are much more suited to their specific role/style of play.



Armor:

Armor works a bit differently than it did in DAO. DAO's system was that your armor value is directly subtracted from damage dealt to you. This led to later situations where Warriors would have tons of armor and Mages/Rogues had little. In order for Warriors to be hurt, enemies would have to do tons of damage, but that same damage amount would completely destroy the other classes in a few hits.

The armor system that we have now is that each piece of armor adds to the Armor property on your character. Against a creature of your level, a given Armor score absorbs a certain percentage of the damage done against you. For example, a full suit of Heavy armor at first level could give a Warrior 40 Armor. This amount of armor against a normal level 1 creature will absorb 80% of the physical damage it does. The chest piece might give you 20 Armor, the helm 10, the gloves 5 and the boots 5 (for example). The Warrior might then equip a shield, boosting his Armor up to 60. He now absorbs 85% of the physical damage done to him. When he levels up, though, an Armor score of 60 will only absorb 82% of the damage done by a normal level 2 creature. Finding better equipment will allow him to keep the amount of damage he absorbs high. These numbers are all examples, of course.

Different classes of armor have different ranges for the amount of Armor they give and the requirements for using them, but they all function in the same way. Your character sheet tells you what your total Armor score is, and also the percentage of physical damage that that score will absorb against a normal equal level creature.

Sounds good. Well thought through.

[tmp7704]

hangmans tree wrote...

I think that this lvl2 attacker should be better at dealing damage not decrising ones armour. In this case not only lvl2 deals greater damage (class progress I gueass) but he bypasses the armour by higher margin too.

They're doing it for similar reasons it's pretty standard fare approach in MMOs i think -- if the gear doesn't "deteriorate" as you gain levels, there's only one way for the developer to provide upgrades, and that's by giving gear that's even better than what the player already has. This allows only very small room for advancement before things break down completely (weapons needing to deal ridiculous levels of damage simply to counter armour that absorbs 90%+ of it etc)  It can be slowed down by making the advancements very small (+1 to attribute, 1% extra damage) but that in turn causes lot of players to view such advancements as worthless and it still only delays the inevitable.

Of course, scaling things depending on levels on the other hand effectively puts the player on treadmill where there is no actual advancement to speak of, there's just bigger and bigger numbers on their items that amount to the same thing. But it seems for lot people that's good enough.

And yeah, it does make the difference in levels more pronounced (which in MMOs can lead to frustrating experiences like being literally unable to hit a foe few levels higher than your character etc) but that's in part cost paid to avoid the alternative outlined above.

Modifié par tmp7704, 23 novembre 2010 - 09:59 .

[Itkovian]

An unfortunate change IMO. I loved how it worked in DAO.

It gave a greater use of armour penetrating weapons, and generally was more true to life than the usual %-based system that most games use (and is being adopted).

I guess it makes it easier on the dev, who in order to avoid the "can't hurt the warrior but will 2 shot the rogue" effect had to rely on armour penetrating weapons/attacks in order to provide a challenge to warriors.

But still, it is unfortunate to see the DAO system go.

Itkovian

[Grand_Commander13]

The problem is that Dragon Age is a combat-focused game, and combat is incredibly difficult to balance based on the damage threshold system Dragon Age uses. It gets even worse when the DT numbers can get so potentially high compared to the damage, as it did in Dragon Age. All told I think Dragon Age handled it pretty well, but for a game that didn't handle it well (in part because the damage was so high relative to health) try Gothic out.

In a game where you'll be doing less combat the disparity stops being so much of a problem, and can even become part of the fun. Of course, in any party-based game the potential disparity between party members will aggravate the player if they can't stop some party members from being hit. So while Origins did a good job with the DT system, it's probably good to see it go. I suppose the problem could have been solved by giving the monsters inanely high armor penetration numbers instead, but then rogue/mage armor would be pointless.

[bsbcaer]

Sylvius the Mad wrote...

bsbcaer wrote...

So you just want to see something where it says "Toggle Hawke hits Hurlock for 8 points of damage"???  If you don't mind my asking, how does this add to your enjoyment of the game?

It's not just that he hits and for how much damage, but what circumstances impacted his ability to do that.  What were the penalties and bonuses at work?

But also, yes, simply knowing that he hit for a certain amount of damage allows quick calcuations to determine things like damage resistance.  In DAO, if you threw a Fireball into a crowded room and some of your targets were resistant to fire, would you know which ones?

Granted Im not the most observant of people sometimes, but when playing BG, I didn't see or notice anything saying more than "Minsc hits Gibberling for 8 damage"  Nothing about circumstances, penalties or bonuses about that hit on the Gibberling  were in that conversation/combat log

[crimzontearz]

So...you never noticedin DAO that your 2 hander warrior dealt more damage to golems than it did to fleshy things? Or that high level enemies were taking less damage than regular hurlocks? You never stopped for a moment to do a quick calculation of how muchextra damage a sustainable added to your attacks and figured out how much it would add against a better armored individual?