109 réponses à ce sujet

[crimzontearz]

because Morrigan was only jokingly evil?

[Jonp382]

I didn't really see Morrigan as truly evil, most of the time. More like chaotic neutral.

[Xewaka]

Xenserrah wrote...

Bann Duncan, ok they act as they did before but at least your can turn them to dark side...
Now with all game making experience Bioware can make realization for dat kind of system to reflect it somehow.

And yes Jade Empire has a good party system, i like dat game too

I assume you mean interaction with companions, because there was no party in Jade Empire. It was just you and your chi/focus fountain.

[crimzontearz]

Jonp382 wrote...

I didn't really see Morrigan as truly evil, most of the time. More like chaotic neutral.

doesn't she disapprove of you trying to save Connor?

all I know is that I could never bring myself to romance her because she ALWAYS disapproved of everything I did LOL

[Jonp382]

crimzontearz wrote...

Jonp382 wrote...

I didn't really see Morrigan as truly evil, most of the time. More like chaotic neutral.

doesn't she disapprove of you trying to save Connor?

all I know is that I could never bring myself to romance her because she ALWAYS disapproved of everything I did LOL

Does she? I know she isn't happy if you send her into the Fade without consent, but I never tried the circle tower.

[AlexXIV]

crimzontearz wrote...

Jonp382 wrote...

I didn't really see Morrigan as truly evil, most of the time. More like chaotic neutral.

doesn't she disapprove of you trying to save Connor?

all I know is that I could never bring myself to romance her because she ALWAYS disapproved of everything I did LOL

Thing about Morrigan I think she is fooling herself. By saying she is not truely evil most people mean she isn't the treacherous, backstabbing type. At least not in dealing with the Warden. Pretty much straight-forward. She doesn't like wasting time helping people who can't help themselves, especially when time is precious. And there are a many 'excuses' for her behaviour as well. As in being raised by wild dogs ... err ... Flemeth.

Only thing I ever hated about her is that she left and that I could do nothing about it. But it seems she is doing what she thinks is the right thing. I am still not sure if sending my Warden with her at the end of Witch Hunt wasn't a bad idea, since she could after all be right. It could be a mistake.

And finally, considering Flemeth, it seems Morrigan is not on her side and Flemeth seems to be the greater evil.

[DarthCaine]

ptibog wrote...

ME2 had boring, manichean characters so whe can expect DAII to have some aswell

Seeing as how ME2's character were miles of miles better than ME1's characters and how DA has different writers, I seriously doubt it

[Shepard Lives]

God no.

People's concept of "evil" is "a completely one-dimensional mass murderer driven only by their urge to kill". I don't want that.

I'd like to see Bioware's take on "evil", though.

[Doveberry]

Boring. There is nothing interesting about evil for the sake of evil.

Modifié par Doveberry, 22 novembre 2010 - 02:20 .

[Drz]

Well Isabella is okay with selling slaves and whatnot, so thats pretty evil. Varric seems to be a guy who runs the assasins to ruin competiton and they invest in shops, if my assumption is correct (keyword: assumption) that Varric is there to just join the winning side aka the player's, and if Varric ends up being a love interest doesn't this mean he's kinda evil? Varric might be (keyword still: assumption) out there for his bests interests or his familys best interests.

[Shepard Lives]

Drazlol wrote...

Well Isabella is okay with selling slaves and whatnot

wat

[RandomSyhn]

I don't get why people say a truly evil charcter cannot love. I can see a very possesive, emotionally dynamic, and violent relationship coming from an evil character. On the flip side evil is in the eye of the beholder, just because you don't approve of someone's morals or choices doesn't nessisarily make them evil, just by your standards. So in saying that as much fun as an evil LI would be there would be more argument to whether they are actually evil or not after they appear.

[Xewaka]

shepard_lives wrote...

Drazlol wrote...

Well Isabella is okay with selling slaves and whatnot

wat

I can't quite remember where I read it, but the cargo she lost when her ship tanked were slaves.

[Maria Caliban]

ptibog wrote...

ME2 had boring, manichean characters so whe can expect DAII to have some aswell

For those who don't know, a 'Manichean' is a follower of Manichaeism, a Persian religion that combined Christianity and Buddhism.

It has nothing to do with the characters in ME 2 and the only way it might make sense within the context of the discussion is highly dubious.

[ErichHartmann]

Drazlol wrote...

Well Isabella is okay with selling slaves and whatnot, so thats pretty evil.

I'll say no if you are judging her based on our modern moral philosophy.  You have to critique her based on the fictional world and their ethics.

[Ortaya Alevli]

Maria Caliban wrote...

ptibog wrote...

ME2 had boring, manichean characters so whe can expect DAII to have some aswell

For those who don't know, a 'Manichean' is a follower of Manichaeism, a Persian religion that combined Christianity and Buddhism.

It has nothing to do with the characters in ME 2 and the only way it might make sense within the context of the discussion is highly dubious.

I'd guess the term "manichean" was used to describe a strict adherence to black and white morality, in a general sense.

[Maria Caliban]

ErichHartmann wrote...

Drazlol wrote...

Well Isabella is okay with selling slaves and whatnot, so thats pretty evil.

I'll say no if you are judging her based on our modern moral philosophy.  You have to critique her based on the fictional world and their ethics.

Er, no.

The fictional world is a product of modern, Western writers. A specific reader might be willing to make allowances for culture, but there's no reason why you *have* to do so. The writer's can tell me "it's their culture" all they want, but I still view the qunari conquering people and forcing them into work camps and the Tvinter Imperium enslaving nations and controlling them with blood magic as unethical.

It's fine for writers to present characters who murder, rape, enslave, and torture as sympathetic, but they're not good.

That said, I would love to see someone who takes a Heart of Darkness view of conflict.

Ortaya Alevli wrote...
I'd guess the term "manichean" was used to describe a strict adherence to black and white morality, in a general sense.

Hence my calling it dubious. It's akin to describing a tightfisted character as jewish or saying that someone who's cheated you has gypped or welshed on you. It's a religion that stretched from Gaul to China and was no more black and white than Islam or Christianity.

Yes, its adherents were boot-stomped by early Christianity and there are no more left, but it doesn't make the term any less intellectually sloppy.

Modifié par Maria Caliban, 22 novembre 2010 - 03:44 .

[IRMcGhee]

I'd guess the poster can't spell mannequin.

[Ortaya Alevli]

Maria Caliban wrote...

Er, no.

The fictional world is a product of modern, Western writers. A specific reader might be willing to make allowances for culture, but there's no reason why you *have* to do so. The writer's can tell me "it's their culture" all they want, but I still view the qunari conquering people and forcing them into work camps and the Tvinter Imperium enslaving nations and controlling them with blood magic as unethical.

It's fine for writers to present characters who murder, rape, enslave, and torture as sympathetic, but they're not good.

That said, I would love to see someone who takes a Heart of Darkness view of conflict.

May I humbly disagree?

Well, I can view all those you mentioned as horrible atrocities (and that I do, to nobody's great surprise) but what I think of them is of no consequence. I wouldn't expect anyone in Thedas to give two bits to what I think, really. But what my Hawke thinks...now that bears significance.

Hawke's morals, like those of other people in Thedas, are shaped by the ethical rules accepted around him. But mine were shaped by real world ethics. If my Hawke were to think sending hounds to war is wrong, Fereldans would have gone "wut", most likely. The material he can use to build his morals and opinions are different than what I have at hand.

Though I don't know to what extent slavery is acceptable in Thedas. It isn't in Ferelden, as far as I can tell.

[Albatroz]

I honestly opened this thread expecting there to be some reference to Assassin's Creed: Brotherhood. Anyway, the thing about DA is that its not black and white, its grey and gray. We don't have true evil characters, we just have jerks. Besides, evil for evil's sake is just boring, and very difficult to write well. So no BioWare, please don't give us an "evil" LI.

[Maria Caliban]

Ortaya Alevli wrote...

Maria Caliban wrote...

Er, no.

The fictional world is a product of modern, Western writers. A specific reader might be willing to make allowances for culture, but there's no reason why you *have* to do so. The writer's can tell me "it's their culture" all they want, but I still view the qunari conquering people and forcing them into work camps and the Tvinter Imperium enslaving nations and controlling them with blood magic as unethical.

It's fine for writers to present characters who murder, rape, enslave, and torture as sympathetic, but they're not good.

That said, I would love to see someone who takes a Heart of Darkness view of conflict.

May I humbly disagree?

Well, I can view all those you mentioned as horrible atrocities (and that I do, to nobody's great surprise) but what I think of them is of no consequence. I wouldn't expect anyone in Thedas to give two bits to what I think, really. But what my Hawke thinks...now that bears significance.

Hawke's morals, like those of other people in Thedas, are shaped by the ethical rules accepted around him. But mine were shaped by real world ethics. If my Hawke were to think sending hounds to war is wrong, Fereldans would have gone "wut", most likely. The material he can use to build his morals and opinions are different than what I have at hand.

Though I don't know to what extent slavery is acceptable in Thedas. It isn't in Ferelden, as far as I can tell.

I'm not sure you actually disagreed with me there. You seemed to be talking about something different.

[Ortaya Alevli]

Maria Caliban wrote...

I'm not sure you actually disagreed with me there. You seemed to be talking about something different.

Well, you said "no" to Erich, I took a few more puffs, and it all went wild from there. heh

I just agree with Erich in that one should NOT base his judgment on his own morals in such matters.

EDIT: Can't believe I forgot to add "NOT".

Modifié par Ortaya Alevli, 22 novembre 2010 - 03:56 .

[Lord Gremlin]

Morrigan was not evil. She was just very, very practical and cynical. You know who was evil? Ya Zhen from Jade Empire. That's evil. Too bad the toad demon wasn't romance-able, maybe because he possessed a body of little girl.