199 réponses à ce sujet

[Dave of Canada]

Perfect-Kenshin wrote...

Try 2 or 3 hours. You don't get the option to join up with dark side Bastilla until far before that point. It isn't just "Click A or B" and then see two different endings. Not to mention that transition to the scene is developed well considering the whole revelation of the gargantuan plot twist as well as how that reflects your character doesn't take place until two main quest before you meet up with Bastilla again.

I was on that planet, they said "We might not return from the top of the temple", I took that a pretty big "THIS IS THE POINT OF NO RETURN" hint. I saved, went up there and talked with Bastila. I sided with her, killed my crew and then killed the last waves of enemies within 30 minutes to become Emperor. I was like "That's pretty cool" and then went back, sided with Jolee and then saved the galaxy to become Heroes within another 30 minutes.

This was from a playthrough where I was pure evil and ruined everything in my way.

[klossen4]

Perfect-Kenshin wrote...

Upsettingshorts wrote...

Perfect-Kenshin wrote...
Considering that KOTOR was one of Bioware's lower budgeted games, yet resulted in having the ability to ever save or conquer the galaxy, I'm gonna have to disagree.

Budget aside, Star Wars is a black and white universe.  That's part of the reason why it sucks, and part of the reason why Jolee Bindo was awesome.  If the answer to your problem is to make DA:O more like Star Wars, I couldn't disagree more.

Sucks? LoL. Game got game of the year and is easily one of Bioware's better story driven games, especially given the twist. I like Dragon Age, but story wise, it doesn't hold a candle to KOTOR. As for black and white, I think you answered your own question by bringing up Jolee Bindo. There are many instances in the game that make you question both the Jedi and the Sith. I particularly remember the side quest on Manaan where you're defending someone in a trial (really wish we had more of these kinds of quest in other Bioware games). If the player manages to find all of the evidence, it turns out that the guy you're defending is guilty as hell whereas the Sith woman he killed is less guilty by comparison.

And yes, that is my answer (to make the game more like StarWars) to the extent that your character wasn't ultimately a good guy who could either choose to be a really really good guy or a good guy who is sometimes an ass.

maybe he just do not like starwars i heard some like kotor but hate starwars.

[Atakuma]

Hawke came to Kirkwall to chew bubblegum and become Champion... and he's all out of bubblegum.

[upsettingshorts]

klossen4 wrote...
maybe he just do not like starwars i heard some like kotor but hate starwars.

Yup.  I have fundamental issues with the Star Wars universe.  That's about as nerdy a statement as I can imagine making on the subject, as I don't take it that seriously, but the way it causes stories to be told isn't appealing to me.  Especially since I think the Jedi and the Sith are both full of crap, for starters.  Considering the end of KOTOR essentially makes you pick one, I'm not a fan of those kind of either-or endings in a black and white universe.  And Star Wars is ultimately almost always - in terms of the big picture or A-story - black and white. 

So back on topic, if that means the plot of DA:2 ends up as a either-or save or destroy choice I'll be disappointed.  I'd rather the saving (or destroying) part be fixed, with the choice being how, why, and to what end.

Modifié par Upsettingshorts, 22 novembre 2010 - 08:24 .

[Maria Caliban]

Upsettingshorts wrote...


Budget aside, Star Wars is a black and white universe.  That's part of the reason why it sucks, and part of the reason why Jolee Bindo was awesome.  If the answer to your problem is to make DA:O more like Star Wars, I couldn't disagree more.

I don't think it sucks.

[Perfect-Kenshin]

Upsettingshorts wrote...

I said the Star Wars universe sucks, and that has everything to do with George Lucas and nothing to do with Bioware.  To their credit, Bioware did a very good job with it.  KOTOR is a great game.

Oh? Well yeah, I agree. For the most part, the Star Wars universe does suck as most simply adhere to the "Jedi = Obvious good guys" and "Sith = Obvious bad guys" standard, not to mention that the continuity (especially in all the non-movie parts of the series) is an utter nightmare/

Perfect-Kenshin wrote...

Not at the end of the game with the big final decision, which is what we're talking about is it not?

Even at the end of the game. You do get the option to break away from the Jedi code and love Bastilla. As for going to dark side, it depends on how you see it. Based on the dialogue options you had during your talk with bastilla, it's pretty clear that the Jedi betrayed you. Not some mumbo jumbo BS like we see from Darth Sidious when he seduces Anakin, but actual legitimate reasons not to stand by their order as well as to take control of the galaxy.

I'm against the notion that being able to tell who is good versus who is bad should be easy.  In Star Wars, it's practically beaten over your head.  Or at least it tries to.

I agree that it shouldn't be easy. In fact, I don't think there should be ANY good guys as everyone is flawed. That said, this is no reason not to have some more diversity in choosing how to shape the playable characters personality.

[marbatico]

because the chicks love a champion

[Perfect-Kenshin]

Dave of Canada wrote...

Perfect-Kenshin wrote...

Try 2 or 3 hours. You don't get the option to join up with dark side Bastilla until far before that point. It isn't just "Click A or B" and then see two different endings. Not to mention that transition to the scene is developed well considering the whole revelation of the gargantuan plot twist as well as how that reflects your character doesn't take place until two main quest before you meet up with Bastilla again.

I was on that planet, they said "We might not return from the top of the temple", I took that a pretty big "THIS IS THE POINT OF NO RETURN" hint. I saved, went up there and talked with Bastila. I sided with her, killed my crew and then killed the last waves of enemies within 30 minutes to become Emperor. I was like "That's pretty cool" and then went back, sided with Jolee and then saved the galaxy to become Heroes within another 30 minutes.

This was from a playthrough where I was pure evil and ruined everything in my way.

Honestly, it's been a while since I've played the game. I remember it taking me longer than 30 minites, but that was mainly dealing with waves of enemies on the Star Forge as well as fighting Malak without destroying any containers he held the dead Jedi in (since I wasn't aware you could do that to beat him like that ) as well as being in the Jedi Consular class. In any case, it isn't just "Click A or B" two minutes before the game end like Spider-Man Web of Shadows or other games that only present the mere illusion of choice.

[falco53]

This conversation doesn't make a whole lot of sense to me. I don't see how being the Champion of Kirkwall inherently means being a good guy, or that you can't make world-changing decisions.

"Champion of Kirkwall" seems to be a title. It seems to entail being the most powerful person in Kirkwall, not necessarily the do-gooder of Kirwall.

Also, I'm a little confused. First, there's a complaint about not wanting to save idiots, but that complaint is followed by a desire to make big decisions... like saving the world...

And I'm not so sure that DA2 will lack those kinds of big decisions. We already know that Cassandra is looking for Hawke because a war is brewing. I'm guessing Hawke will have a big role in how that war plays out.

Again, I'm really confused about why being the Champion of Kirkwall is a problem. How does this limit choice in the game? Unless, as others have already comically pointed out, you want a game in which you can choose to do nothing. Let me reiterate: nothing about the term "Champion" implies being a good guy, or being a guy that saves the world.

I do not want to be a champion. I will instead be a farmer.

[errant_knight]

Maria Caliban wrote...

Perfect-Kenshin wrote...

The game can have a plot without making me ultimately be a goody two shoes regardless of how many "selfish' actions my character partakes in.

Yes, it could do that.

The problem is that plot divergence is expensive. It's much easier for the developers to create a story where you save the town in spite of being selfish than one where your selfishness leads to the destruction of the town.

Also, the game world is dull if everyone but you gets dead right after meeting you.

[AtreiyaN7]

Great, why don't you let all of Thedas burn and then make smores. Get back to us on how they taste!

[Shepard Lives]

I cannot begin to describe how strongly I facepalmed at this thread.



Comparing DAO and KOTOR's story progression. Jesus.

[Nerivant]

AtreiyaN7 wrote...

Great, why don't you let all of Thedas burn and then make smores. Get back to us on how they taste!

They're amazing! Made by elves!

Actually, made from elves, but that's beside the point.

[Sylvius the Mad]

DarthCaine wrote...

Because the game needs a plot. It's the same reason why you MUST stop the Blight in DAO, or why you MUST stop Saren in ME1 and the Collectors in ME2 etc

Except you don't have to stop the Blight in DAO, or Saren in ME1, or the Collectors in ME2.

You can die.

I wonder how DAO handles death, given that the story is being told as if we succeeded.  Does that mean we can't fail?

[tmp7704]

errant_knight wrote...

Maria Caliban wrote...

The problem is that plot divergence is expensive. It's much easier for the developers to create a story where you save the town in spite of being selfish than one where your selfishness leads to the destruction of the town.

Also, the game world is dull if everyone but you gets dead right after meeting you.

On the other hand, everyone dying promptly is one way to keep the amount of content needed for the diverging paths down to reasonable minimum

[Nerivant]

tmp7704 wrote...

errant_knight wrote...

Maria Caliban wrote...

The problem is that plot divergence is expensive. It's much easier for the developers to create a story where you save the town in spite of being selfish than one where your selfishness leads to the destruction of the town.

Also, the game world is dull if everyone but you gets dead right after meeting you.

On the other hand, everyone dying promptly is one way to keep the amount of content needed for the diverging paths down to reasonable minimum

Hawke dies in Lothering.

BioWare: "What!? We told he story, just like we told you we would!"

[tmp7704]

Sylvius the Mad wrote...

I wonder how DAO handles death, given that the story is being told as if we succeeded.  Does that mean we can't fail?

Framed narrative makes it easy for Cassandra to interrupt Varric and demand him to stop exaggerating about things that clearly couldn't happen. Like Hawke's too early death.

[Perfect-Kenshin]

falco53 wrote...

This conversation doesn't make a whole lot of sense to me. I don't see how being the Champion of Kirkwall inherently means being a good guy, or that you can't make world-changing decisions.

"Champion of Kirkwall" seems to be a title. It seems to entail being the most powerful person in Kirkwall, not necessarily the do-gooder of Kirwall.

Also, I'm a little confused. First, there's a complaint about not wanting to save idiots, but that complaint is followed by a desire to make big decisions... like saving the world...

And I'm not so sure that DA2 will lack those kinds of big decisions. We already know that Cassandra is looking for Hawke because a war is brewing. I'm guessing Hawke will have a big role in how that war plays out.

Again, I'm really confused about why being the Champion of Kirkwall is a problem. How does this limit choice in the game? Unless, as others have already comically pointed out, you want a game in which you can choose to do nothing. Let me reiterate: nothing about the term "Champion" implies being a good guy, or being a guy that saves the world.

I do not want to be a champion. I will instead be a farmer.

Like I said, I'm not sure and am making assumptions based off of what I've seen. Cassandra wants Hawke's help, but it wouldn't make sense to want the help of the kind of champion I'm suggesting the possibility of. That and it just doesn't seem likely that we are going to have that kind of flexibility given the recent games like Mass Effect 2 as well as DAO. Bioware either allows you to be a goody two shoes or a goody two shoes who sometimes feels like being a jerk (although there are a few exceptions).

[Shepard Lives]

Oh Christ.

Hawke buys the farm, you get a game over screen, you reload.

It's not like in DAO or Mass Effect we are treated to a cutscene of the darkspawn or Reapers exterminating all life every time we are killed.

[upsettingshorts]

Furthermore, unless we actually ever end up reaching the "present tense" it's possible that Hawke didn't exist, and Varric made the whole thing up!

Unreliable narrator is unreliable.

shepard_lives wrote...

Oh Christ.
Hawke buys the farm, you get a game over screen, you reload.It's not like in DAO or Mass Effect we are treated to a cutscene of the darkspawn or Reapers exterminating all life every time we are killed.

That would have been awesome.  Imagine that triggering if you can't get through the Conduit in time?  Critical mission failure indeed.

Modifié par Upsettingshorts, 22 novembre 2010 - 09:11 .

[Maria Caliban]

Sylvius the Mad wrote...

Except you don't have to stop the Blight in DAO, or Saren in ME1, or the Collectors in ME2.

You can die.

I wonder how DAO handles death, given that the story is being told as if we succeeded.  Does that mean we can't fail?

The PC will always stop the Blight if you play. The PC has no failure option. Your only option is to play or not to play when it comes to whether the Blight is stopped.

Perfect-Kenshin wrote...
Cassandra wants Hawke's help, but it wouldn't make sense to want the help of the kind of champion I'm suggesting the possibility of.

The Allies wanted the help of Stalin in World War II. Would you characterize him as a 'goody-two shoes?'

Power, not morality, is what determines whether you can influence events.

Modifié par Maria Caliban, 22 novembre 2010 - 09:14 .

[tmp7704]

Perfect-Kenshin wrote...

Like I said, I'm not sure and am making assumptions based off of what I've seen. Cassandra wants Hawke's help, but it wouldn't make sense to want the help of the kind of champion I'm suggesting the possibility of.

From what we've been told though, Cassandra wants to learn about Hawke because he's the only person that can possibly help in her situation. So she doesn't really have much choice here -- Hawke could be total **** who punts kittens through glass for breakfast, but she still needs to get help from such person in the end, one way or another.

[Perfect-Kenshin]

shepard_lives wrote...

I cannot begin to describe how strongly I facepalmed at this thread.

Comparing DAO and KOTOR's story progression. Jesus.

Yeah, there's nothing like getting worked up over a discussion about a video game on an Internet forum.  And yes, I compared KOTOR to DAO. Oh the humanity! Someone break out the defibrillators!shepard_lives may have to consider having his name changed soon!

Modifié par Perfect-Kenshin, 22 novembre 2010 - 09:17 .