40 réponses à ce sujet

[Ahglock]

So lets say biotics existed and you could exert 1200 newtons fo force to throw someone.  What would that mean?

My I do not know what I'm doing research says its 269 pound force, and a pound force is according to the wiki The pound-force is equal to the gravitational force exerted on a mass of one avoirdupois pound on the surface of Earth

That does not sound like much, like maybe knock me on my ass but not throw me across a room.  In game it looks fairly impressive, but would it be even remotely that impressive.  Should bioware be mutliplying these numbers by 10 or something. 

So if anyone who knows what the hell they are talking about with physics wants to chime in on this I'd apreciate it.

[Landon Frost]

You can also take into account that it is a Mass Effect Field, which cancels out the mass of an object. So your throwing something that has no (or very low) mass with 270 pounds of force. Pretty massive.

[TuringPoint]

Well, I've done some internet investigation, apparently that would be enough to accelerate a 200lb or 90 kg person, a muscular soldier in light armor up to 13.3 meters per second squared - so that's more force than gravity, at 9.8 m/s ^2.

Also, consider weight lifting a 270 pound force, and how hard it would be to fight that.  Then imagine that same amount of force hitting you in, say, the abdomen.

Modifié par Alocormin, 23 novembre 2010 - 05:28 .

[Ahglock]

Landon Frost wrote...

You can also take into account that it is a Mass Effect Field, which cancels out the mass of an object. So your throwing something that has no (or very low) mass with 270 pounds of force. Pretty massive.

I think/thought that was only true after you hit them with lift/pull or singularity first.  At which point yeah a 0 mass object getting hit with 270 pounds of force probably goes fairly far.  If push includes that to some degree then yeah I guess the flying across the room thing makes sense. 

[Ahglock]

Alocormin wrote...

Well, I've done some internet investigation, apparently that would be enough to accelerate a 200lb or 90 kg person, a muscular soldier in light armor up to 13.3 meters per second squared - so that's more force than gravity, at 9.8 m/s ^2.

Also, consider weight lifting a 270 pound force, and how hard it would be to fight that.  Then imagine that same amount of force hitting you in, say, the abdomen.

Well I weight lift and can bench near 270 pounds so this is why it seems
less than impressive to me.  Sure I can lift a 200lb person to get them
off the gorund defeating the evils of gravity for a short time, heck I
can squat 2 of them or leg press 5 of them.  Yet I don't see me throwing people across a room.  Since I generally avoid fighting I'll probably never find out.

I think Landon Frost must be right about it negating your mass with the push.  It would explain the distance thrown on top of the meager damage inflicted. 

[Landon Frost]

Lift/Pull and singularity focus on constantly negating the mass. Throw and such negates the mass at the point of impact, allow the object to only lose its mass long enough to be thrown across the room and then fall back with some force. For example, Miranda's special ability negates mass (to lift it) and then increases it massively (to slam it into the ground).

[Praetor Knight]

Well there is an article on live science that stated that a punch can deliver 5,000 Newtons of force and a kick 9,000 Newtons, but that is for specific types of strikes that travel a very short distance and at a comparably slower velocity to the speed of a biotic attack (plus, not all punches and kicks are created equal),
but apparently Shep can generate a lot of force in his strikes, when he beats people up and / or uses elbows .
http://www.livescien...nch-100203.html

As such, if biotics have similar mass altering effects as a mass drive in a ship then the force should be amplfied to some degree when that force is delivered at a high velocity (near instant contact with the enemy from the start of the attack).

So then combine the quick delivery of the focused biotic attack (the velocity of the attack) with the force of 1,200 Newtons then the Biotic attack could be a force to reckoned with if it were real.

[Sgt Lindog]

i would have contributed to this but you used the word 'pound' and therefore you are beyond help..

[Praetor Knight]

I remembered a program that I saw a while back and found it again! Sports Science. I was getting underwhelmed by biotic attacks that list Newton forces when I kept digging and I have found some stuff I'd like to share.

It seems that when a kick exerts 800 lbs of force that is 3,559 Newtons, which is also enough to break a maple bat. Also there was a segment with Dwight Freeney, a football player, that when he hits the quarterback or a ball carrier at full speed he exerts 2800 lbs of force which equals 12,455 Newtons on impact.

So if throw for example is not using some mass altering effects then its 1,200 Newton force is grossly underestimated.

The Presentation is cheesy but there is science there:
Breaking bats with shin:
Dwight's force:

[Count Viceroy]

Throw should be renamed punt then.

[Ahglock]

Yeesh. It hits with less force than a punch, tackle, or kick. They should up it more than a bit even with mass altering effects.

Oh and sorry for being from a superior country Sgt Lindog, I wont try to rub it in anymore.

Modifié par Ahglock, 24 novembre 2010 - 12:17 .

[i love lamp x3]

8 pounds of force is enough to break bone

[Ahglock]

Under perfect circumstances yes it is. But usually 8lbs of force wont even knock you off balance.

[Praetor Knight]

Ahglock wrote...

Under perfect circumstances yes it is. But usually 8lbs of force wont even knock you off balance.

As gross as it sounds you could rip an ear off with 8lbs of force or break a collarbone, which is also as much force to tear 12 - 17 by 22 inch sheets of bond paper (imagine a thicker type of paper used for bond or share certificates).

[Ahglock]

Well sure. 8lbs of force in the right spot focused to a small enough area can do a lot. Bullets don't really have tons of force behind them, but they are focused into a small point so they tend to punch through people. The issue is for biotics like push which are supposed to shove a large body they are more like the force of a tackle requiring large amounts of force spread out over an area rather than someone pushing a sharp object through your skin which requires a tiny amount of force.

[Praetor Knight]

Ahglock wrote...

Well sure. 8lbs of force in the right spot focused to a small enough area can do a lot. Bullets don't really have tons of force behind them, but they are focused into a small point so they tend to punch through people. The issue is for biotics like push which are supposed to shove a large body they are more like the force of a tackle requiring large amounts of force spread out over an area rather than someone pushing a sharp object through your skin which requires a tiny amount of force.

Yes I agree, I just wanted to share what I found. It's amazing what the human body can and can't survive.  

[wookieeassassin]

A newton has the units kilogram*meter/s^2, and is the SI unit of force. More specifically, a newton is how much force it takes to accelerate 1 kilogram to a speed of one meter per second.

Here is one article: www.livescience.com/health/humans-can-take-a-punch-100203.html
Says that some boxers can throw a punch with a force of 5000 newtons. So yes, Bioware's numbers are rather low. 
Of course, it also depends on where the force is concentrated. If the force is concentrated on a very small area it can do a lot more damage. If it is distributed across a larger surface it won't do as much damage.

If a mass effect field is making the victim of your attack a lighter mass, a smaller amount of force would be enough to knock them back. However, if you hit someone with enough force to flat out knock them off their feet (more than 5000 newtons without a mass effect field) I'd think there would be some broken bones for sure, even with some type of armor. What I don't understand is that them slamming into something doesn't seem to cause any damage, making the throw ability just a way to get an enemy away from you. Now, if an enemy falls, like if you lift them and then do a concussive shot, it does seem to do damage. I could be wrong about damage from throw though.

It is strange how much punishment a human being can take in some cases, but how remarkably weak we can be in other situations.


Side note: the metric system does actually make a lot more sense than the English system.

Modifié par wookieeassassin, 24 novembre 2010 - 02:03 .

[lv12medic]

Well, what would happen would also depend on how long said force is applied. 1200 Newtons for a millisecond vs. 1200 Newtons for a full second would create drastically different results.

[wookieeassassin]

A force over time would mean the object would continue to accelerate, thus the the final velocity would be higher. In that case the enemy would hit the wall/cover/whatever harder, which should do more damage. Like I've said though, I feel like throw doesn't actually cause damage.

Modifié par wookieeassassin, 24 novembre 2010 - 02:05 .

[Ahglock]

Throw does sporadic damage when people hit objects. Sometimes nothing sometimes a small amount never a lot. The English system is our way of taking a handicap before the match with other countries. It wouldn't be sporting otherwise.

[TelexFerra]

How come when Shepard hits someone with a 1200 Newton force, Shepard himself/herself doesn't feel that force?

[wookieeassassin]

Ah yes, "equal and opposite reaction". We have dismissed that claim.



No really though, I guess his biotic ball or whatever hits them feels that force in the opposite direction. I don't know.

[EffectedByTheMasses]

I could be wrong but doesn't it depend on the target's mass as well? So say Shepard hits a 100kg enemy with 1200N. Since F=ma and therefore a=F/m, the throw would hit the enemy and propel them at an initial acceleration of 12m/s^2. Then you have to take into account the direction, friction of the ground, air resistance and various other things to see how far that acceleration can accelerate the enemy. Isn't that all there is to it?

Ah, high school physics. Those were good times.

Edit: the biotic ball would probably receive the opposite reaction, not shepard.

Modifié par EffectedByTheMasses, 24 novembre 2010 - 04:34 .

[wookieeassassin]

It would depend on the target's mass. That is why upgrading your throw would (or should) would be more useful against Krogan and a throw will always work better against a Blue Suns heavy than a Krogan. For some reason I feel like the mass of an enemy was more tied to how well throw worked on them in Mass Effect 1. I remember using a low level throw on a Krogan and them laughing as they rushed me whereas in ME2 I feel like they are equally affected as long as they don't have any defenses up.

The force hitting the enemy straight on would knock them off their feet and they would hit the ground whenever gravity determines (hint: without air resistance everything falls at the same speed), if the force hit them up at an angle they would fly farther.



There would be friction involved if you hit them in such a way that their feet provided an opposing force. If they were hit at an upward angle I don't think there would be much friction, although air resistance would still apply.

[Ahglock]

TelexFerra wrote...

How come when Shepard hits someone with a 1200 Newton force, Shepard himself/herself doesn't feel that force?

My assumption has always been that the blue glowing field that surrounds a biotic when he uses a power effects their mass(in kilograms to make some people happy,roughly 2.2 lbs per KG for those of us here in America) for a split second while they launch the attack making them a immovable object so the equal oppsoite effect is negligible to them. 

But my science skills are lacking so who knows if that is plausible.