Aller au contenu

Photo

Were DA:O's choices morally complex?


  • Veuillez vous connecter pour répondre
79 réponses à ce sujet

#51
NuclearSerendipity

NuclearSerendipity
  • Members
  • 84 messages

Giggles_Manically wrote...

Too bad the devs said they wont be following the architects story anymore though during a podcast.


Seriously? But... That sucks Posted Image I mean, it doesn't makes sense to me that the Architect surviving or not won't have any impact on future releases... How could it not make a difference, specially if he lives?

It seems like a little bit too much corner cutting. And I hate corner cutting already. It's one of the main reasons why no matter how great a Bioware game is, there's always something that lets you down. Posted Image

#52
Giggles_Manically

Giggles_Manically
  • Members
  • 13 708 messages
No video game is EVER complete though.

Jade Empire, both Baulder's Gate, Dragon Age, both Mass Effect's and pretty much any other game you can name cut things to save money.



Which is dumb for the architect since that is pretty much the only far reaching thing that will happen because of Awakening.

#53
KnightofPhoenix

KnightofPhoenix
  • Members
  • 21 527 messages
If the Darkspawn Awakening thing is going to be explored further (I hope so), I think the "Seeker" is going to feature as a replacement for the Architect. He sounds like a cunning fellow.

Modifié par KnightofPhoenix, 24 novembre 2010 - 03:15 .


#54
NuclearSerendipity

NuclearSerendipity
  • Members
  • 84 messages

Giggles_Manically wrote...

No video game is EVER complete though.
Jade Empire, both Baulder's Gate, Dragon Age, both Mass Effect's and pretty much any other game you can name cut things to save money.

Which is dumb for the architect since that is pretty much the only far reaching thing that will happen because of Awakening.


Notice, however, how you've mentioned only Bioware titles. Posted Image Of course, not that I'm saying that there isn't plenty of games from other developers that have corners cut; but heck, Bioware sure makes a habit out of it, IMO. Posted Image


And it's not that I'm complaining about games never being complete, which I agree. I'm complaining about games letting you down, disappointing you. Sure games always have flaws, but they don't always disappoint you because of them; they don't always have to be a great deal. With NWN2, ME, DA and so on, however, there were always flaws due to corner cutting that ended up disappointing me. Posted Image

#55
NuclearSerendipity

NuclearSerendipity
  • Members
  • 84 messages

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

If the Darkspawn Awakening thing is going to be explored further (I hope so), I think the "Seeker" is going to feature as a replacement for the Architect. He sounds like a cunning fellow.


Was the Seeker the one from Amaranthine? I can't seem to remember right now.

#56
KnightofPhoenix

KnightofPhoenix
  • Members
  • 21 527 messages

NuclearSerendipity wrote...

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

If the Darkspawn Awakening thing is going to be explored further (I hope so), I think the "Seeker" is going to feature as a replacement for the Architect. He sounds like a cunning fellow.


Was the Seeker the one from Amaranthine? I can't seem to remember right now.


We don't see him. We read about him in one codex entry (not sure if he is mentionned somewhere else). He was the one who massacred Velanna's mini clan and made it look like the humans did it. And this was done from his own initiative, the Architect just found it odd.

Modifié par KnightofPhoenix, 24 novembre 2010 - 03:34 .


#57
NuclearSerendipity

NuclearSerendipity
  • Members
  • 84 messages

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

NuclearSerendipity wrote...

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

If the Darkspawn Awakening thing is going to be explored further (I hope so), I think the "Seeker" is going to feature as a replacement for the Architect. He sounds like a cunning fellow.


Was the Seeker the one from Amaranthine? I can't seem to remember right now.


We don't see him. We read about him in one codex entry (not sure if he is mentionned somewhere else). He was the one who massacred Velanna's mini clan and made it look like the humans did it. And this was done from his own initiative, the Architect just found it odd.


Ah, I see. Seems like another piece of Architect's masterwork, huh?Posted Image I agree it'd make sense that he features as a replacement for the Architect then... It sure would be interesting  Posted Image

#58
Collider

Collider
  • Members
  • 17 165 messages
Good points on the Mage Circle decision, guys. I'll rethink my position on it.

As for the Connor choice, I'm mostly referring to the fact that you can do the mage route with absolutely no consequences besides a couple disapproval points from companions.

#59
Elhanan

Elhanan
  • Members
  • 18 550 messages
I have always chosen the Mages for the final battle, as they are the more powerful allies. Guess I never considered choosing the Templars as being the 'Rather Safe Than Sorry' selection.

#60
EccentricSage

EccentricSage
  • Members
  • 1 067 messages

Collider wrote...

Mage Circle - Either you kill potentially innocent people or you don't kill potentially innocent people. Too black and white for me.


That depends upon the POV of your Warden and wether or not your Warden believes as Cullen believes... that they have all succumbed to the control of demons and surviving blood mages.  While I personally tend towards sympathising with the mages, it's easy to understand how a tower of corupted mages could be very dangerous.

Redcliffe - The mage circle route pretty much invalidates what could have been a tough decision.


Only if you metagame.  Strategicly, leaving Connor in the care of a blood mage while you go on a trip that will at LEAST be four days long (two days one way, wasn't it?) is a rediculously stupid and naive plan.  It was frankly unexpected that things remained quiet at the castle while you were away.  Until you interfered, you are told the undead playthings of the demon were laying seige upon the town night after night, dragging people away.  It's frankly unrealistic that your character showing up and killing the undead would be enough to make the demon lay off for awhile.  It had little trouble possessing and killing a whole castle full of people after all.

Werewolves - The elven chieftain wants people who were not any way involved in the rape of his family (or clan members, can't remember) to suffer from the curse he made simply because they are of the same blood. In addition, part of his desire not to is because he'd die as a result, even though he's been living longer than his fellow clansmen have been. In additon, we know Zathrian is guilty, but we don't know that every individual werewolf had attacked the innocent elves of Zathrian's clan.


I got the impression that the werewolves were mostly the original people involved in the rape and murder.  I got the impression the curse simularly made them live as long as the curse sustains them, as it did Zathrian.  Likewise, Zathrian had been a good and loved leader of his people, and had not expected the curse to spread to his own people.  The knowlege someone his age could hold of Elven history, culture, and magic make him a precious living resource theoreticly.  And are these former rapists who continously threaten your Warden really trustworthy?  Not to mention, the Warden may expect Zathrian to personaly help in the final battle, and he's clearly a very powerful mage.

From this perspective, one could easily side with Zathrian.  In fact, this is how it played out for my elven mage.  What really ended negotiations is when Swiftrunner started to freek out and say threatening things during the negotiation.  She made the split second judgement call that things were about to get messy, and was not about to wait for the werewolves to draw first blood.

As for convincing the werewolves to get revenge by wiping out Zathrian's clan...  I agree that's a bit stupid evil.  You have to role a rather twisted Warden with backwards logic to think that's a sensible course of action, as far as I can tell.  Everyone just ends up suffering needlessly, I've heard the Werewolves aren't actually that good in the final battle, and you loose a very useful merchant who could provide you with poison ingredients and endless elfroot supplies.  It seems like it's just the option included for people who get a kick out of roleing a evil bastardc type character.

Bhelen and Harrowmont - Not bad in concept, but they should have done a better job at informing the player what positions the two candidates had.


I agree.  It was really hard to get a clear idea of where they stand without metagaming, and Zevran's advice, while having been intended to differentiate, ended up being rendered a moot point as they ended up having both usurpers hiding behind locked doors for fear of assassination.

In the end, through atempting to do their little quests, you do learn a bit about their tactics, though, and from talking to merchants, you do learn Bhelen wants to open up more trade with the surface, which is a really big deal.  The support of the merchants is what put me on Bhelen's side.

In the end, the interesting moral of the story is that the nice guy is not always the best ruler.

Wounded Soldier - You can either help the soldier, or kill him for no reason. :blink:


Yeah... I think that was just an oportunity for the people who enjoy being evil to be evil.  An evil bastard really might enjoy abusing his or her power like that.  Also if a character is really messed up in the head... like maybe an elf who truly has a deep hatred for humans and would kill them all if it were presently an option.

I think there is reality in giving the player the options of abusing their power or using it to White Knight all over the place, just so long as there are other grey area options whenever it's apropriate.  In real life, there are people who realy do horible things for no logical reason, as well as people who try to help everyone wether they deserve it or not.  So having the oportunity for such moments in game does not take away the realism.  It's not like every choice we make in life really has a moraly ambiguous option.  It's not like every choice in life is so complex.


*edit*  By the way, I understand the Dragon Age games not following the Architect on a temporary basis, since the next game is moving it's focus away from the Order of the Grey and the threat of the Darkspawn to something more political.  But I would hope that it would eventually come back up in a later game.  I mean, are we really to believe the Darkspawn will never be a problem again?  And the Grey Wardens are far too interesting and too big a part of our introduction into the world of this franchise to just permanently be brushed off as an aside for the rest of the franchise.

Modifié par EccentricSage, 24 novembre 2010 - 10:31 .


#61
DarthCaine

DarthCaine
  • Members
  • 7 175 messages
lol, not at all. Almost every last one was black and white.



BioWare should really take cues from The Witcher

#62
EccentricSage

EccentricSage
  • Members
  • 1 067 messages

DarthCaine wrote...

lol, not at all. Almost every last one was black and white.

BioWare should really take cues from The Witcher


How?

Even just deciding what to do with Zevran is FAR from black and white.  Same with Sten.  If you roleplay all your files from a single very specific POV, and are not prone to self doubt or regret even when things do turn out bad, or metagame like crazy, then I can see how decisions could seem too simple.  But then, I'd also say you aren't getting the point of roleplaying in the first place.

#63
DarthCaine

DarthCaine
  • Members
  • 7 175 messages

EccentricSage wrote...

Even just deciding what to do with Zevran is FAR from black and white.  Same with Sten.

No it isn't. Alive == good, Dead == evil

If you roleplay all your files from a single very specific POV, and are not prone to self doubt or regret even when things do turn out bad, or metagame like crazy, then I can see how decisions could seem too simple.  But then, I'd also say you aren't getting the point of roleplaying in the first place.

You can say that about EVERY choice in EVERY RPG. DAO is no more morally complex than Fable

#64
Herr Uhl

Herr Uhl
  • Members
  • 13 465 messages

DarthCaine wrote...

lol, not at all. Almost every last one was black and white.

BioWare should really take cues from The Witcher


Yes, let's make everybody a corrupt bastard, thus making you not wanting to choose anyone.

The choices weren't that complex, nor were they in Origins for that matter, but at least the sides gave arguments other than "Those other guys are worse bastards than us, make a choice!".

DarthCaine wrote...

EccentricSage wrote...

Even just deciding what to do with Zevran is FAR from black and white.  Same with Sten.

No it isn't. Alive == good, Dead == evil


Yes, clearly releasing the man who admits to slaying a family over a temper tantrum is the morally right thing to do. A man that doesn't even want to leave mind you.

#65
Skadi_the_Evil_Elf

Skadi_the_Evil_Elf
  • Members
  • 6 382 messages
The Witcher? Why do people bring up one of the most boring and lopsided games ever as some sort of comparison to DA?



Witcher came in two shades, dark and darker. Not much of a choice, and really boring, since it all leaned/pointed in one moral direction, really. At least with DA, there's alot more complexity and reasoning behind descisions.

#66
EccentricSage

EccentricSage
  • Members
  • 1 067 messages

DarthCaine wrote...

EccentricSage wrote...

Even just deciding what to do with Zevran is FAR from black and white.  Same with Sten.

No it isn't. Alive == good, Dead == evil

If you roleplay all your files from a single very specific POV, and are not prone to self doubt or regret even when things do turn out bad, or metagame like crazy, then I can see how decisions could seem too simple.  But then, I'd also say you aren't getting the point of roleplaying in the first place.

You can say that about EVERY choice in EVERY RPG. DAO is no more morally complex than Fable


LOL  Your view on morality is what is shallow.  I supose IRL we should have let Gacy go free to rape and murder more boys, because clearly life and freedom are always the good option. 

In Fable there are no logical reasons to slaughter people and do evil things except to get the evil-only gear and apearance.  Fable was one of the most poorly written and childish games I've ever played.  It was a fun and pretty game that I did enjoy mind you, but as simple as can be.

#67
Ryzaki

Ryzaki
  • Members
  • 34 424 messages
I fail to see how letting the werewolves get their revenge is stupid evil. A warden could see that curse as being a chain and the werewolves have already tried reasonable negotations and got the door slammed on their faces. They're cursed for something they haven't done and had no influence on.



If you're sure Zatherian won't lift the curse showing up in force to force him isn't that far fetched. You'd think he'd hold the safety of his people over petty vengence.



Turns out he didn't.

#68
ejoslin

ejoslin
  • Members
  • 11 745 messages
The werewolves themselves would prefer to have the curse broken -- it's a high persuade skill to convince them to kill the elves instead.

#69
Zjarcal

Zjarcal
  • Members
  • 10 837 messages
A choice is only "stupid evil" if your motivations are stupid evil. There are many reasons why someone could choose to attack the Dalish that aren't "stupid evil".



Let's say that when the Lady of the Forest reveals the truth about the curse, you are convinced that Zathrian will never accept to come down and negotiate, thus you feel that a better choice is to force his hand by threating his whole clan and exposing him in front of everyone. Keep in mind that when the attack is about to start both the Lady and Swiftrunner attempt to convince Zathrian to lift the curse (the warden can also say a line about ending the curse one way or another).



So it's perfectly feasible that a warden can choose to attack the Dalish camp believing that this course of action will force Zathrian to surrender. Of course, it doesn't and it's indeed a very rash decision, but you can't say that it was "stupid evil".



Now, if you choose to attack the Dalish for the lulz, yeah, that's stupid evil.

#70
Ryzaki

Ryzaki
  • Members
  • 34 424 messages
^Exactly. Thank you for saying it more eloquently Zjarcal.

#71
Giggles_Manically

Giggles_Manically
  • Members
  • 13 708 messages
Motivation is what is important for a choice.



I kept the anvil on my DN run, not for the lolz but because he thought he could use it to help his people.



The "harsh" choices can be easily justified, in Bioware games.

Except for picking Morinth, thats just dumb.

#72
Guest_The Water God_*

Guest_The Water God_*
  • Guests
Decisions I make for my good Characters:

Mages Circle-
  Your given the choice to either violently slaughter all the mages (including the children) because of a small chance they might be blood mage or not spare them given the extreamly small chance they might be a blood mage. Yeah....no.  I really get tired of the templars constant overreaction to blood mages. I guess its because in America I often get tired of peoples constant overreaction to Muslims.Posted Image

Redcliffe- It's obivious the only good decision here is to let the Lady Isolde, her child, and the village live. But if you really wanna make Lady Isolde suffer, kill Conner and let the village burn. Make the **** live to see how much of an idiot she really was.

Orzammar- Obviosley destroy the Anvil, it's totally evil. Even if people are used as volunteers whos to stop a dictator from rising up and forcing people upon the Anvil. Now for Bhelen and Harrowmont. I usually pick Bhelen due my character not really knowing anything about Dwraven Politics and thus not wanting to get to involved. But for the Drawf Noble I choose Harrowmont in order to let him get revenge on his **** brother.

The Elves- Its obvious to let Zathrian remove the curse. To see the Zathrian forgive the werewolves and free them of their curse, then to hear Leliana sing her song back at camp to top it all off. Truly a nice ending.

The Landsmeet:

Alienage- Of course free the elves.

Ruler- Let Alistair marry Anora.

Loghain- Be merciful and spare him. Then decide what to do for the ending.


Final Battle:

Dark Ritual-
I think with how little effect it has on the game, and hugly it effects the ending. Theres no doubt that this will truly end up coming out to bite the player in the ass in a future DA. Seeing as its not truly canon And lets the player live instead die, I always feel like this is a horrible decision and I really don't trust Morrigan. Regardless It is necessary if you wanna an ending where everyone lives.

Ultimate Sacrafice- I'm so so with killing Alistair. But for Loghain you have two choices, Give him a chance to redeem himself or make him live his life in misery by forcing him to live in Orlais as a Grey warden, either is an okay  choice. But usually I do DR if I want to have every character alive for the afterparty Posted Image.

Modifié par The Water God, 25 novembre 2010 - 03:34 .


#73
Ryzaki

Ryzaki
  • Members
  • 34 424 messages
^actually no. Samara threatens a renegade Shepard so that could be seen as him taking a preemptive strike.

#74
Giggles_Manically

Giggles_Manically
  • Members
  • 13 708 messages

Ryzaki wrote...

^actually no. Samara threatens a renegade Shepard so that could be seen as him taking a preemptive strike.

Where as Morinth well can kill you.
So still the chaotic stupid choice there.

#75
Ryzaki

Ryzaki
  • Members
  • 34 424 messages

Giggles_Manically wrote...

Ryzaki wrote...

^actually no. Samara threatens a renegade Shepard so that could be seen as him taking a preemptive strike.

Where as Morinth well can kill you.
So still the chaotic stupid choice there.


Uh..no. Morinth can only kill you if you sleep with her.

And sleeping with her is just dumb.