97 réponses à ce sujet

[macrocarl]

Yeah smal came in super handy on the LotSB mercs! Totally awesome. After the mission though I thought I'd actually try flash bangs though since the mercs used them so handily on my Shep at times

Most likely I'll go back to slam though.

[AntiChri5]

Yes, whatever works for you.  You originally stated that you could not "see a universe" in which slam was better than reave, I would say that ranks up there as a "personal judgement".  If you believe that that is fine but others have pointed out slam can have a variety of uses, just saying.

I would hardly call crowd control and warp bombs a variety of uses.

Not to mention he says Reave provides "5 functions" and he doesn't mention even one...^^

Barrier stripping, Armour stripping, aoe crowd control, damage enemy health, restore your own.

[AntiChri5]

Sets up warp bombs

As does Pull.

Instantly kills (unprotected) Husks

So does, well almost everything. Including Pull.

Provides minor cc on health

As does a hell of a lot of other powers. Including Pull. And Reave.

Staggers protected enemies

Yeah so does every offensive power.

Instant kill unprotected enemies on the outside of SB ship

So does Pull, if you do it right.



Everything it does Pull can do. Slam may CC someone for longer, but has no AOE evolution and puts foes on the ground, possibly even in cover.



Pull is almost always a death sentence. Even if you don't warp bomb they are exposed so completely for so long your squaddies alone should kill them.

[GracefulChicken]

I'm currently doing my first playthrough with a Vanguard (insanity), and I almost picked Reave but went with Slam instead. No looking back. Its great. I've found it really handy, plus it lets me save alot of points by not even putting any into shockwave or pull. Reave, pull, and slam all have their uses, but so far the cooldown on Slam seems to work best for my playstyle with a Vanguard. The instant cast is a big plus when compared to pull, too.

And yeah, Pull can send people flying on the SB ship, if you do it right... Slam always does it, without having to "do it right". I'm with Kronner, after defenses are stripped, I like to toy with the enemys, and Slam is fun for that.

[PrinceLionheart]

 You forgot to mention it's amusing to use it over and over on a defenseless Geth Prime.

[Mocker22]

While I wll say that Slam is decent and VERY fun to use, to me it is very redundant because you already have pull. It's not that much better than pull, although quicker Warpbomb is great. My reasoning is I would rather use my bonus power to get something that the Vanguard can't already do. Vanguards are offensive for my playthroughs so I skip Stasis because my Adept and Sentinel have it. That leaves Reave. I like that it adds a bit of ranged dmg capability.



On a side note, does Throw combo with Slam for the Superthrow effect?

[Nozaro]

Brock22 wrote...

While I wll say that Slam is decent and VERY fun to use, to me it is very redundant because you already have pull................

Slam is easily the most potent 1 point bonus power you can get in my opinion.

Now why did i qoute the above ? well you say slam is redundant because you already have pull. The thing is unless you are playing NG+ you dont already have pull right from level 1, you have to invest 4 points to get pull, 3 of which are wasted in shockwave. I dont know about anyone else but my main focus when i start a vanguard from level 1 is to max Heavy Charge > Champion > Inferno Ammo as soon as humanly possible. Taking 4 points and using them to get pull delays that considerably and i just cant justify that when i can have slam as my bonus power that does everything that i need pull to do but for 0 point investement since it gets a point in it already for selecting it as your bonus power. Now on the other hand if you are playing NG+ and starting at level 30 then that is different and you should choose whatever bonus power you like since you will have pull from the very start of the game.

So in my opinion if you are playing NG+ choose whatever you like, but if you are starting from level 1 i would recommend slam as a bonus power since it needs no point investment to be useful and therefore doesnt delay any of your more important power choices/evolutions. Having slam and being able to set up warp explosions from level 1 with shepard is a very nice option to have available.

Modifié par Nozaro, 25 novembre 2010 - 05:50 .

[AntiChri5]

You are shifting from one argument to another...

If you can't see my central points, it isn't my fault. I am being perfectly clear.

I prefer instant cast slam over projectile pull, pull (on a vanguard) requires 3 points in shockwave  (and probably results in loss of squad cryo). Slam requires 1 point that is automatically given when you select it as your bonus.  Non-aoe pull suffers from the fact that it is a projectile, and if the target ducks behind cover before it hits, it has no effect (as far as I can tell no amount of angling it changes this). So until it is the aoe version, I find it too unreliable. If a target is exposed when you activate slam, it triggers. Another reason why I prefer slam over pull on vanguards.

Power requirements do not decrease the effectiveness of that power.

I don't see how it suffers from being projectile at all. The travel time is negligible and it allows you to curve pull around cover, hitting targets Slam can't. If you hit a target standing behind (but not in) cover with slam all you do is put them behind that cover and keep them from getting up.

Indeed, pull does, slam does, does reave?

Of course not, but i don't need it to, do i?

But not always on a 3 second base cooldown with instant effect against all enemies (organics, synthetics, etc.), that's difference.

Do you actually use offensive non stripping powers on unprotected targets? If anything it is very last resort, and all squadmates have instant cast powers that could step in on the four times you ever have to resort to it.

Again this is not 100% reliable, neither is slam but it is significantly higher than pull and is a nice bonus for slam, you can also instant kill non-protected collectors on moving platforms too and sometimes shatter frozen enemies.

Throw or Pull can kill unprotected Collectors on moving platforms, and any offensive power can shatter frozen enemies.

This just leaves one battle in an optional dlc. I won't deny slam is better for sending them straight up, but Pull does more then good enough without taking up my bonus power. Besides, at that point you have Liara's Singularity as well as all your own powers. Killing unprotected enemies there is very easy.

In short, for me, slam on a vanguard works out of the box even at 1 point. In my opinion reave is crap until you get the AOE version. Pull requires points in shockwave and again doesn't really shine until you get the AOE version.

Pull is almost always fatal. Pull can take someone out of cover and leave them suspended above the battle for 12 seconds. 12 seconds. No one survives being exposed for so long. Slam can take someone out of the battle (but often leave them in cover) for 9.3 seconds.

The window to pull of a warpsplosion with slam is so tiny you need to do it immediately, i can detonate a pulled target whenever i want.

Slam does not offer anything Pull does not, it does some better (SB base) but Pull still offers that.

Reave offers so many options it makes bringing along a warping squadmate optional rather then necessary. Reave gives me so many additional options and Slam offers nothing i don't have.

[Kurt M.]

AntiChri5 wrote...

Yes, whatever works for you.  You originally stated that you could not "see a universe" in which slam was better than reave, I would say that ranks up there as a "personal judgement".  If you believe that that is fine but others have pointed out slam can have a variety of uses, just saying.

I would hardly call crowd control and warp bombs a variety of uses.

Not to mention he says Reave provides "5 functions" and he doesn't mention even one...^^

Barrier stripping - So little, and so does Slam, too.

Armor stripping - The same.

Crowd control - Agree with that, but I already have heavy weapons to do it (special mention to the Arc Projector), which they do it much better than any power.

Damage enemy health - Slam does that, too.

Restore your own - Agree, too, but it restores way too little to actually being useful, even at maxed. Plus, it ONLY restores health, not your shields. If your shields have dropped, your best chance is either get to cover, use any Shield restoration power, or medigel. A little of extra health won't change anything if you're exposed to enemy fire. Plus, it doesn't cut the shield slowdown time either, as medigel or the Shield' powers does.

Modifié par Gladiador2, 25 novembre 2010 - 06:36 .

[AntiChri5]

Barrier stripping - So little, and so does Slam, too.Armor stripping - The same.

Reave does double damage against armour and barriers, since it is primarily a damage dealing power this means the damage it does to armour and barriers far exceeds the damage done to them by Slam. Using slam on armour is like using overload on barriers. Yeah, it does damage, but bullets or even melee is far more effective.

Crowd control - Agree with that, but I already have heavy weapons to do it (special mention to the Arc Projector), which they do it much better than any power.

Heavy Weapons are a finite resource, and changing to them takes far too long sometimes.

Damage enemy health - Slam does that, too.

A small amount to a single target.

Restore your own - Agree, too, but it restores way too little to actually being useful, even at maxed. Plus, it ONLY restores health, not your shields. If your shields have dropped, your best chance is either get to cover, use any Shield restoration power, or medigel. A little of extra health won't change anything if you're exposed to enemy fire. Plus, it doesn't cut the shield slowdown time either, as medigel or the Shield' powers does.

It is a side benefit, but a benefit nevertheless. The health regen can come in very useful.

[AntiChri5]

Uh huh, things like you stating you can't see how slam could ever be better than reave. Or how you can't see how slam has a variety of uses. Your definition of being perfectly clear was basically "personal judgement".

No.

Slam is a rigid power, that offers nothing Pull does not. Reave is a flexible power that offers many things Pull does not.

Sure they do, you just don't want to admit it. Once again, you don't see how it being a projectile is a problem, others do, that is your problem not ours.

No they don't. Shockwaves usefulness does not change the way Pull works. Some people prefer instant cast, others prefer to arc powers. That is simple personal preference, nobodies problem.

Well slam does instant kill non-protected husks, reave doesn't. A use for slam over reave.

But why would i use Reave? I have Pull.

It can be useful, the short cooldown allows me that flexibility. But now in your arguments, you are relying on squadmate powers. I can really on squadmates to do defense stripping, again no need for reave which is no bad thing because shielded enemies make up over 50% of the game. Once again, you can't see that, your problem not mine.

But Pull has the same cooldown, and against any protection other then shields Reave is better. Later on, your arguments rely on squadmate powers. Are we arguing independance or not? It's Slam offers nothing against sheilds Pull doesn't.

So now you have managed to compare slam against throw, pull and reave.  And again you are fallback to arguing about using a squadmate.

So i am not allowed to mention when other powers offer the same use? Slam's ability to knock unprotected targets off moving platforms is hardly unique.

And i argue about using a squadmate you have to have for that one battle.

Taking slam allows me a variety of uses without the loss of squad cryo on a vanguard. Slam also offers that over pull.  Slam is also accessibly far earlier in levels than pull. Slam also you to trigger warp explosions just fine against  blue suns and geth whereas if you took reave and haven't unlock pull, too bad. Furthermore, against shielded enemies (easily well over 50% of the enemies you face) reave's usefulness on a 6 base cooldown is diminished.

Squad Cryos usefullness doesn't make Slam a better power. I play NG+, so i do have Pull from the start. Using Slam for Warpsplosions is far more difficult then using Pull for the same purpose. Reave is as useful against Blue Suns and Geth as Slam is, because to use either optimally you must strip shields. Added to which, Slam is completely useless against some enemies (Harbinger, Praetorian, Thresher) and almost completely useless against other enemies (Scion)

Reave offers defense stripping against armor and barrier for a base 6 second cooldown. To me that is far too long a wait for not enough turn around, especially since I can use a pistol with inferno ammo and do just fine against armor. Since most armored mobs have weak amounts of armor (vorcha, klixen, husks) this is far more effective than non-aoe reave. So it needs to get up to level 4 to get an AOE version before I feel like it justifies a base 6 second cooldown.  I'd much rather take Mordin and get the same effect on missions that have a lot of armor and Incinerate has AOE right from the start.  Against barriers, I'd just take Miranda/Thane which gives me access to warp bombs as well. Against gunships, praetorians type enemies (of which there probably no more than 10 in game) you can use a heavy weapon.

But Reave does offer that. Whether or not you find it worth it. A warping squadmate is an option rather then a necessity. We can use squadmates to accomodate for any weakness in any build, and heavy weapons can trivialise any fight in the game.

Slam is useful at 1 point and has a variety of uses and that is why I take slam as my bonus power.

Slam only offers two uses, both of which are offered by Pull.

Reave has five, several of which aren't offered by any power i have. It opens the class up, allowing me to play how i want. Thay is why my bonus power is Reave.

[Kronner]

AntiChri5 wrote...

Slam is a rigid power, that offers nothing Pull does not.

And this right there tells everyone that debating with you is like talking to a tree. Pointless waste of time, because after all that has been said in this thread you drop such a bombshell lol..one has to wonder what is the reason..but I do not want to get banned so I'm just gonna keep it to myself.

[AntiChri5]

What does Slam offer that Pull doesn't?

[Velo]

Pull can do everything slam does with same cooldown.



Slam is SLIGHTLY more reliable because instant cast, but you are bound to line of sight, so that's situational.



Every advantage slam has over pull is minimal. It's like taking reave when you have warp.



Choosing a bonus power giving you little more than something you already have is a waste, there are other bonus powers offering much more.



I see only two reason to take slam:



First reason: you have just one point and nothing vs. unprotected enemies.



Second reason: you really like slam and want to use it because it's funny and cool, that is perfectly fine.

[AntiChri5]

Uh reave is a rigid power it is damage dealing power, you can't combo with reave, you can't instant kill with reave and it has 6 second base cooldown. It is a far more rigid power than slam. 

Reave has five uses, Slam has two.

For some people points in shockwave is lost points, I never use shockwave, and it is another nail in the coffin for pull when I play a vanguard.

Shockwave is wasted points, but that doesn't change how Pull works.

The point of this thread is why people choose slam.  You seem to be failing catastrophically at recognizing that. Again the point of this thread is uses for slam and taking it as a bonus power. I am not sure what is so difficult to comprehend here.

Oh, so this is just a fan thread, no discussion allowed? Like the character threads, where it is just a clubhouse for that character full of it's fans where dissenting opinion isn't welcome but all other threads trying to debate the character are locked as duplicates anyway?

Once again, pull requires points in shockwave, and my experience is more unreliable for warp bomb purposes. Slam has the advantage in my opinion.

Once again, Shockwaves ****tyness does not change how Pull works. It doesn't increas Pulls CD or reduce it's duration. With Pull you have a twelve second window in which to add Warp to the biotic field, with Slam you need precise timing.

Well let's see you are comparing slam against 3 different powers and also bringing in squadmates, as to why you don't take Slam. I simply argue that I can bring in different powers and squadmates as to why I don't care for pull or reave. Pretty simple really.

You can't raise something as a strength of the skill and then complain when i point to other powers that can duplicate that effect. But fine. We refuse to acknowledge all powers other then Pull and Reave. Pull can still take unprotected enemies off moving platforms. Perhaps less efficiently, but it still does it. And you bring squadmates up to support your own points later. Are we building for independence or not?

No it doesn't but squad cryo is a passive that is always active, better than having wasted three points in shockwave imo.  Slam for warp bombs takes a little practice then I claim it is actually more effective than pull.  Using Reave against shields is far worse than using slam because of the cooldown difference and the small amount of damage that reave does against shields.  Slam isn't useless against Harbinger or Scions, you just aren't aware of how you can use it, that is your problem not mine.

If you bring one of the (many) squadmates with their own ammo power then cryo ammo is just as much of a waste. In what way is Slam more effective then Pull for warp bomb? Using Slam against shields is still stupid. It's not like it takes much to strip their shields and then Reave is more useful since it affects an area as well as CCing the initial target. Slam barely scratches Harby while Reave tears him apart, against Scions you get the brief stagger from Slam with a tiny amount of damage. Reave does quite a lot of damage to a Scion.

I don't find it worth, hence I'm arguing that fact in the thread why I take slam as a bonus power. That heavy weapons can be used doesn't change the facts.

Heavy Weapons invalidate everything. That was my entire point. And to which "facts" are you reffering?

Slam offers a number of benefits over pull, you don't buy that, that is fine, others do. You think Reave is a flexible power, I don't. Slam offers far more to me than pull or reave does.

Pull does everything Slam does. Some of them Pull does better, some of them Slam does better. But they overlap completely.

Slam gives instant cast

Which has both negative and positive aspects. This is neither a + or a -

doesn't require 3 points in shockwave and hence no loss of squad cryo.

Squad Cryo is far from a necessity. If you bring squaddies with ammo powers it is as useless as those points in Shockwave.

[Nozaro]

What it comes down to is whether you are playing NG+ or not.

If you are starting at level 1 slam as a bonus power is a significant advantage. If you are playing NG+ and starting at level 30 then slam is redundant as you have all your core powers maxed/evolved and can afford to waste the points in shockwave to get pull.

I love both slam and pull but at different points in the game. I use pull over slam once i have all my other abilities maxed out and slam early game when i want my core abilities maxed out as soon as possible and cant afford the points in shockwave.

Reave ? well i dont like reave but thats a whole other argument. I think it makes the game way too easy but thats my opinion. I still remember the huge argument Kronner and Sinosleep had with Sabre about Reave when he posted his Vanguard guide thread.

Modifié par Nozaro, 25 novembre 2010 - 02:51 .

[ryoldschool]

m14567 wrote...


Amen brothers and sisters. This thread is why you might want to take slam as a bonus power.  There are certainly reasons why you might not want to, to each their own.

That was the original point ( to say why you like slam ), and in doing so people mentioned that Reave was "crap", etc. etc.  SaberSandiego did fine with Reave as his bonus power in his videos ( its his preferred build in his guide ), and others have a use for reave on vanguard - they can also get some of the effects that Slam does with pull.  Single player game, enjoy what works for you.

[AntiChri5]

Again, you argue that since this is the "Slam thread" only people who like Slam should post in it and those who don't aren't allowed to because they don't get it and thats not what the thread is for.

That's absurd, and not how this works.

If you want a place where only people you approve of and only people who agree with you post, create a group for how awesome Slam is. Then you can kick out anyone who doesn't stick to talking about how Slam is awesome and who doesn't "contribute to the essense of the thread".



I came into this thread with high hopes, looking for a reason to give Slam another try. Hoping there was something i had missed. Which is why i have constantly asked, "what does Slam provide that Pull doesn't?" I still haven't got an answer that makes me want to give it another shot.

Uh you brought in other powers and squadmates to explain why you don't take slam. I'm not refusing anything. I'm just pointing out that if you can bringing in other powers and squadmates so can I.

No, i didn't. My reason for not taking Slam is Pull. I brought up squadmates when someone (you?) was arguing that a reason to take Slam is the minor stagger effect you get by using it on a protected enemy. Every offensive power offers this, at the very least and every squadmate has an instant cast offensive power. Even Grunt. If every squaddie provides it then it isn't a reason to take Slam.

Slam is instant cast and I find that allows for more reliable warp bombs that you can control for effect.

I find the opposite. The narrow window means you need unrealistically precise timing. With Pull, the enemy is disabled for up to 12 seconds while you wait for the perfect time to warp bomb.

Pull takes time to hit and people can move behind cover or a way from the target.

Slam requires an LOS and cannot hit enemies in cover, while Pull can be curved around cover and used to send the eneny in the direction you choose.

So there are both positive and negative aspects to the instant cast, meaning that it cannot be used to support either of our arguments.

Reave obviously does good damage against Harbinger and Scions, which is like 2% of the entire game?

And yet, a legitimate reason to take Slam is a single battle in an optional dlc?

The fact that you can use heavy weapons versus gunships and praetorians.

You can use anything against them. I find it easier to use the Mattock and Phalanx/Carnifex against Gunships.

You can't just use heavy weapons throughout the game because you'll run out of ammo.

Of course. I was never saying you could. I generally ignore heavy weapons, but they can be easily used to eliminate the weakness of a class (Adept sees many shielded enemies and gets Arc Projector out to strip shields)

Saving heavy weapon ammo for gunships and praetorians is common sense and obviates the need for reave in those situations.

Saving heavy weapon ammo for anything you arent equipped to deal with is common sense, and obviates the need for the power that would be most useful in that situation. Heavy weapons are an "I win" button.

But then you previously argued that you wanted flexibility in squadmates?

About half the squadmates have an ammo power, meaning there is a damn good chance that at the very least half of Squad Cryos functionality will be gone.



This will likely be my last post in this thread, as you have made it clear this is the official "Slam Fans Only, No Dissenting Opinions Allowed" thread i will leave you to your one sided discussion.