97 réponses à ce sujet

[Sparrow44]

Messing about on an old Vanguard save before, had points in both Pull and Slam and I can say Pull/Slam combo's are pretty cool if not fun to watch. Would usually finish 'em off with Charge after they've bounced and in mid-air from Slam.



I think Slam's shorter cooldown and instant-cast feature meshes well with Vanguards who wish to Charge often and want a decent backup power as a bonus. Pull for me offers a different playstyle if I choose to go for it working a Vanguard at longer range with either AR or SR training later on, Slam doesn't interfere with CQC Vanguard as it's good at any range.

[ryoldschool]

sinosleep wrote...

I like slam because as a 1 point power it is SPECTACULAR. In the the early game when you aren't going to have enough points 4 points to waste for 1 point of pull it's a life saver to able to just drop a point in slam and go about your business.

The only caveat really is that in order to use it for warp explosions you need to make sure your squad is BEHIND you. I ran into a problem several times when making my vanguard tutorial vids that when you let your warp bombers get into your line of sight they perform the casting animation which can mess up the PRECISE timing you need to set off warp bombs with 1 point slam.

So long as they are behind you though they don't seem to bother with the animation making their warps instant and MUCH easier to time with slams very short warp window.

Ok, Kronner has just posted that for the "millionth time" that warp bombs are why slam is better.  So, on PC what is required to perform these warp bombs with one point in slam ( without pausing ).  I just want to understand how you do it - not joking here.  I played a complete playthrough with slam ( xbox ) and never got a warp bomb with slam.  So really what actions are required on PC to do these?  With pull, even at one point, it is easy to pull, stop what you are doing ( so you are not moving ), then press the directional keypad to fire the bomb.  Just asking, because those "instant warp bombs" you guys are talking about are not easy.  So really, what are the mechanics?

[sinosleep]

ryoldschool wrote...

Ok, Kronner has just posted that for the "millionth time" that warp bombs are why slam is better.  So, on PC what is required to perform these warp bombs with one point in slam ( without pausing ).  I just want to understand how you do it - not joking here.  I played a complete playthrough with slam ( xbox ) and never got a warp bomb with slam.  So really what actions are required on PC to do these?  With pull, even at one point, it is easy to pull, stop what you are doing ( so you are not moving ), then press the directional keypad to fire the bomb.  Just asking, because those "instant warp bombs" you guys are talking about are not easy.  So really, what are the mechanics?

Like m14567 mentioned, the PC's far better hotkey layout is extremely helpful to warp explosions (I personally use my 3 mouse buttons as hotkeys for warp bombs) but another important aspect is keeping your warper BEHIND you or at least out of line of sight. This video shows why



From 51 seconds onwards you'll see a string of well executed slam warp bombs but I run into issues at 5:17 because Miranda crosses into my line of sight. When she's in your line of sight she HAS to finish the warp animation BEFORE it takes effect which severely impacts your ability to get the warp off during slam's lift duration. If you watch, you'll see that I command her to move further to the right and move myself further to the left which moves her out of line of sight and presto the next warp bomb goes off without a hitch.

Modifié par sinosleep, 26 novembre 2010 - 05:22 .

[ryoldschool]

sinosleep wrote...

ryoldschool wrote...

Ok, Kronner has just posted that for the "millionth time" that warp bombs are why slam is better.  So, on PC what is required to perform these warp bombs with one point in slam ( without pausing ).  I just want to understand how you do it - not joking here.  I played a complete playthrough with slam ( xbox ) and never got a warp bomb with slam.  So really what actions are required on PC to do these?  With pull, even at one point, it is easy to pull, stop what you are doing ( so you are not moving ), then press the directional keypad to fire the bomb.  Just asking, because those "instant warp bombs" you guys are talking about are not easy.  So really, what are the mechanics?

Like m14567 mentioned, the PC's far better hotkey layout is extremely helpful to warp explosions (I personally use my 3 mouse buttons as hotkeys for warp bombs) but another important aspect is keeping your warper BEHIND you or at least out of line of sight. This video shows why



From 51 seconds onwards you'll see a string of well executed slam warp bombs but I run into issues at 5:17 because Miranda crosses into my line of sight. When she's in your line of sight she HAS to finish the warp animation BEFORE it takes effect which severely impacts your ability to get the warp off during slam's lift duration. If you watch, you'll see that I command her to move further to the right and move myself further to the left which moves her out of line of sight and presto the next warp bomb goes off without a hitch.

Thanks m14567, also this video ( above ) should be in Pacificen's strategy listing to explain this "line-of-sight" condition for doing those warp bombs.  I actually bought the PC game a couple of weeks ago - to see the differences, but it would not run on my computer.  I think that the game mechanics on the two systems can change how you need to play.  You will notice that ScroguBlitzen's SM video where he does not pause the game that he uses auto squad powers   On classes like soldier where you don't need to coordinate power combos the its not a problem.  But if the key criteria for your bonus power selection depends on executing these warp-bombs, then its more of a concern.

Anyway thanks for the information.

[Kronner]

Keeping your squad out of sight is incredibly easily, especially when playing the Vangurd class. You will only see them when you are in one place (cover) for too long so they can catch up to your position. I have found this potential problem to be a complete non-issue.

I usually have (hotkeys) 1 - Warp, 2 - Charge, 3 - Slam, 4 - Warp, so just 1-3-4 and boom, I get to see the explosion for a second and then I can Charge again. Win.

Modifié par Kronner, 26 novembre 2010 - 07:23 .

[Velo]

Bozorgmehr wrote...

Velo wrote...

The main and only reason not to take slam is because there is something else better.

Like what? Reave?

It is perfectly fine to talk about reave, because for a vanguard reave may be a reason not to take slam.

Why take Reave? It's imho the worst bonus power available (all classes). It is versatile for sure, but everything it can do, can be done better and faster using other powers. Reave is only worthwhile to players who don't like to change their bonus power now and then (it works on all missions except synthetic heavy missions).

Besides, isn't playing Vanguard about Charge? I can't think of many situations (except non-chargeable enemies, but they are few) where I would prefer using something else instead of Charge. Slam has a very short cooldown thus hardly interferes with the aggressive charging Vanguard's playstyle, while allowing instant warpbombs even at rank 1.

Personally i don't like reave much and almost never used it.
But still it MAY BE a reason not to take slam, if the player feels reave is better.
Every power may be a reason not to take slam. 
I was just saying that discussing about reave is fine.

[Velo]

Kronner wrote...

Velo wrote...

Imho if you have squad cryo ammo there is no reason to take slam, you already have something that works against unprotected enemies, slam offers other advantages but is redundant overall, maybe situational at best, like in LoTSB, if you hate that mission on the platform, take slam, but I'll drop it later because it adds little.

Instant Warp Bombs.

For the milionth time. Slam is the only power in the game that allows you to set up instant Warp bomb. This can't be replaced by Pull. With Reave you can do instant bombs too, but only against barrier/armor protected enemies AND you have longer cooldown.

In my humble opinion (IMHO) was put there for a reason.

Yes I see instant warp boming is good, but sometimes (more than some) miranda takes some time to use warp, is there no risk of losing a warp bomb this way?

[Kronner]

Velo wrote...

sometimes (more than some) miranda takes some time to use warp, is there no risk of losing a warp bomb this way?

You need to keep her out of your line of sight, which is very easy to do since you are the one at the vanguard.

Modifié par Kronner, 26 novembre 2010 - 08:55 .

[jwalker]

Velo wrote...

Kronner wrote...

Velo wrote...

Imho if you have squad cryo ammo there is no reason to take slam, you already have something that works against unprotected enemies, slam offers other advantages but is redundant overall, maybe situational at best, like in LoTSB, if you hate that mission on the platform, take slam, but I'll drop it later because it adds little.

Instant Warp Bombs.

For the milionth time. Slam is the only power in the game that allows you to set up instant Warp bomb. This can't be replaced by Pull. With Reave you can do instant bombs too, but only against barrier/armor protected enemies AND you have longer cooldown.

In my humble opinion (IMHO) was put there for a reason.

Yes I see instant warp boming is good, but sometimes (more than some) miranda takes some time to use warp, is there no risk of losing a warp bomb this way?

yes, miranda can take some time for her warp for the reasons explained above.

but it's not only about warpbombing.

i use pull, but i found the projectile time travel annoying (and dangerous if under fire ).
for CC purposes, i prefer slam, since is instant cast for shepard. on insanity that makes a difference.

[SSoG]

AntiChri5 wrote...

No they don't. Shockwaves usefulness does not change the way Pull works. Some people prefer instant cast, others prefer to arc powers. That is simple personal preference, nobodies problem.

This is great posting. You are absolutely right. Some people prefer instant cast, while some prefer to arc powers. Bravo, exactly 100% on the nose.

Of course, you realize this point completely invalidates your original argument, right? You said "I do not see in which universe Slam could be better then Reave." Well, how about a universe where the player prefers instant cast powers to arc powers, and therefore wants to use Slam instead of Pull?

Also, while you've done a great job explaining how Pull makes Slam redundant, you've done a terrible job at explaining how that is the teensiest, tiniest bit relevant for the FOUR OUT OF SIX classES that do not have access to pull. I mean, did I miss something somewhere? Did this somehow become the Vanguard Only Bonus Power thread? If I'm playing as a Soldier, Infiltrator, or Engineer, there's only one power available to me that (A) has a 3-second cooldown and ( instakills husks. If I'm playing as a Soldier, Infiltrator, Engineer, or Sentinel, there is only one way I can personally initiate a warp explosion. For an engineer, especially, Slam is so much better than Reave since the Engineer already has superior crowd control (Drone) and armor stripping (Incinerate) powers.

Now, personally, I'm not the biggest fan of slam. 90% of the time I'm running Flashbang Grenade (best CC power in the game, and only Tech Armor or Singularity are even in the same neighborhood), and the other 10% of the time, I'm running an Ammo power. Still, it's pretty easy to see the appeal of Slam or envision situations where it's incredibly useful. Plus, it's a ton of fun.

[sinosleep]

Actually SSoG, all those classes have access to neural shock, a 3 second CD power that insta-kills husks. In fact, neural shock is my preferred bonus power for infiltrators and engineer.

[Bozorgmehr]

SSoG wrote...

AntiChri5 wrote...

No they don't. Shockwaves usefulness does not change the way Pull works. Some people prefer instant cast, others prefer to arc powers. That is simple personal preference, nobodies problem.

This is great posting. You are absolutely right. Some people prefer instant cast, while some prefer to arc powers. Bravo, exactly 100% on the nose.

Instacast vs arc has nothing to do with personal preference, it depends on the situation. Powers that work instantly are superior to powers that require travel time before taking effect; only when enemies are behind cover or out of sight (but still targetable) arc powers are better (instacast powers don't work).

[tonnactus]

Bozorgmehr wrote...


Besides, isn't playing Vanguard about Charge?

Right.And a 3 second cooldown,even regarding its a fast cooldown,dont let you charge enemies for those seconds.So if someone considering a bonus power it should help in a situation where an enemy should be weakened or crowd controlled.Or not able to charge it.(for enemy on ledges,even shockwave is better when they are unprotected)
Reave and stasis do that.Slam obviously not.
I dont even know why a vanguard should bother with warp bombs anyway. If i want that,i play as an adept where i could my make one ones with pull and warp.
Because the op didnt only discuss the vanguard,slam is actually one of the worst bonus powers for all other classes.Except someone want to make half part of a warp bomb with an infiltrator or soldier...

Modifié par tonnactus, 28 novembre 2010 - 12:19 .

[GracefulChicken]

No one has mentioned using Pull+Slam combos for insta-kills yet either. Pull an enemy over a big drop (like in Mordin's loyalty mission, where EDI informs you about the exploding crates, for example), then Slam while theyre over the ledge. They just fall into an abyss and die.

[SSoG]

Bozorgmehr wrote...

Instacast vs arc has nothing to do with personal preference, it depends on the situation. Powers that work instantly are superior to powers that require travel time before taking effect; only when enemies are behind cover or out of sight (but still targetable) arc powers are better (instacast powers don't work).

It has a lot to do with preference. My Caster Sentinels and Sniper Infiltrators prefer Warp or Incinerate to Reave because they're frequently engaged in drawn out battles from cover where the ability to arc their shots isn't just handy, it's invaluable. My Assault Sentinels and Shotgun Infiltrators, on the other hand, couldn't possibly care less about arcing powers around cover because their entire playstyle revolves around flanking and denying cover to enemies. As a result, they prefer Reave to Warp. Sometimes instacast fits my preferred playstyle better, while sometimes arc powers do. Granted, even if I'm playing an Instacast-friendly playstyle, there will still be times I would love a nice arc power (and vice versa), but by and large the relative usefulness of the two types of powers is determined by personal choices in playstyle.

[ryoldschool]

ryoldschool wrote...

Let me add my two cents about what that guy was saying about pull. I have played complete vanguard playthroughs with slam and reave, and now I'm doing statis as the bonus. I have never used pull on a vanguard before, but after looking at this thread, I just did the LotSB mission at level 25 with only one point in both pull and statis. Pull was great on that mission because it could arc over barriers, etc. Also it was really easy to make those guys float on the outside of the SB ship - you don't have to be that careful. I know everyone here has a lot of opinions, but it made me try something I have avoided because I never wanted to spend points on shockwave. I assume pull will work well on husks on Reaper IFF ( I usually retrain with slam for that mission ).

I just did the Reaper IFF, now have 6 points in pull, and still one in statis.  Pull works fantastic on husks, and you can still use statis on the Scions.  Off the subject, but on the Reaper IFF - there is a bug where your squad gets frozen for no reason at all - Samara has done this the last two times I've run this mission.  She gets behind cover and never moves ( no animation at all ) - even when all enemies are gone.  But she will show up when you go to the next area.  Its random, and a shame because she is very agressive on that mission ( when not frozen ).

[Graunt]

sinosleep wrote...

ryoldschool wrote...

Ok, Kronner has just posted that for the "millionth time" that warp bombs are why slam is better.  So, on PC what is required to perform these warp bombs with one point in slam ( without pausing ).  I just want to understand how you do it - not joking here.  I played a complete playthrough with slam ( xbox ) and never got a warp bomb with slam.  So really what actions are required on PC to do these?  With pull, even at one point, it is easy to pull, stop what you are doing ( so you are not moving ), then press the directional keypad to fire the bomb.  Just asking, because those "instant warp bombs" you guys are talking about are not easy.  So really, what are the mechanics?

Like m14567 mentioned, the PC's far better hotkey layout is extremely helpful to warp explosions (I personally use my 3 mouse buttons as hotkeys for warp bombs) but another important aspect is keeping your warper BEHIND you or at least out of line of sight. This video shows why



From 51 seconds onwards you'll see a string of well executed slam warp bombs but I run into issues at 5:17 because Miranda crosses into my line of sight. When she's in your line of sight she HAS to finish the warp animation BEFORE it takes effect which severely impacts your ability to get the warp off during slam's lift duration. If you watch, you'll see that I command her to move further to the right and move myself further to the left which moves her out of line of sight and presto the next warp bomb goes off without a hitch.

I was messing around with Slam/Warp exlposions on my last Vanguard but gave up trying after a while and just used a dedicated Pull character because I wasn't even sure if Slam would set off an explosion like Pull did, and if it only worked in the first 0.9 second lift part (I know how it works now).  I also noticed the casting animation crap causing ally powers to NOT be instant cast, which was really starting to annoy me, and it took me a while to figure out why their cast times were seemingly "random". 

On my next Vanguard I'm definitely going to revisit this option (Over Stasis -- it's too cheap on a Vanguard), because I already assumed Slam was a one point wonder, but this was before I was entirely sure about a few things.  I think I'll also use the mouse key suggestion as well vs numerical for that combo.

Modifié par Graunt, 28 novembre 2010 - 10:03 .

[Bozorgmehr]

SSoG wrote...

It has a lot to do with preference. My Caster Sentinels and Sniper Infiltrators prefer Warp or Incinerate to Reave because they're frequently engaged in drawn out battles from cover where the ability to arc their shots isn't just handy, it's invaluable. My Assault Sentinels and Shotgun Infiltrators, on the other hand, couldn't possibly care less about arcing powers around cover because their entire playstyle revolves around flanking and denying cover to enemies. As a result, they prefer Reave to Warp. Sometimes instacast fits my preferred playstyle better, while sometimes arc powers do. Granted, even if I'm playing an Instacast-friendly playstyle, there will still be times I would love a nice arc power (and vice versa), but by and large the relative usefulness of the two types of powers is determined by personal choices in playstyle.

Personal preference and playstyle are not the same thing. If you're fighting cover vs cover than yes, arc powers are more useful, but out in the open instacast powers can save your butt when non-instacast powers, that take time before reaching target, don't.

I don't think having two similar powers (an instant and arc version) is advisable; Pull and Slam have too much overlap, the insta vs arc isn't worth having both imho, just too situational.

[SSoG]

Bozorgmehr wrote...

Personal preference and playstyle are not the same thing. If you're fighting cover vs cover than yes, arc powers are more useful, but out in the open instacast powers can save your butt when non-instacast powers, that take time before reaching target, don't.

I think it's Poh-tay-toe / Poe-tah-toe. I think playstyle is absolutely a personal preference thing. I can play my Sentinel as a Caster and keep him back, or I can play him like an Assaulter and constantly flank and deny cover. There's nothing inherent about the class that forces me to do one or the other, it's just a question of which I personally prefer. Based on that personal preference of how I want to play my Sentinel, I'm going to naturally prefer either arc powers or instacasts.

[Bozorgmehr]

That was the point I was trying to make. My original response was about this exact difference. There is a clear difference between Pull and Slam, it's not a matter of preference but closely related to ones playstyle.

The way you like to play is up to you of course

[SSoG]

Bozorgmehr wrote...

That was the point I was trying to make. My original response was about this exact difference. There is a clear difference between Pull and Slam, it's not a matter of preference but closely related to ones playstyle.

The way you like to play is up to you of course

Of course. You and I seem to be in total agreement, I was only pointing out the inconsistency in AntiChri5 saying that the difference between arc and insta powers comes down to preference, but there's "no universe" where slam is better than Reave because Slam (an insta power) is made redundant by Pull (an arc power).

[tenshi_no_hone]

Agreed - though I'm always loathe to pick Slam over pull because it uses up my bonus slot so I can't have Reave/Stasis/Warp Ammo etc. That I would say is the only solid in Pull's favour - and then only if you love your other bonus powers