343 réponses à ce sujet

[The Masked Rog]

Upsettingshorts wrote...

People going back and forth about which self-limiting class systems give them more roleplaying freedom makes my skill-based system loving head spin.

Actually I agree with you. Oblivion had the best char creation system I have ever seen. But I imagine the forum would uproar if they implemented such a thing in DA:O.

[nightcobra]

The Masked Rog wrote...

Upsettingshorts wrote...

People going back and forth about which self-limiting class systems give them more roleplaying freedom makes my skill-based system loving head spin.

Actually I agree with you. Oblivion had the best char creation system I have ever seen. But I imagine the forum would uproar if they implemented such a thing in DA:O.

i wouldn't mind a classless system for the protagonist while leaving the class system intact for companions, it would be an interesting experiment.

[Nerivant]

nightcobra8928 wrote...

The Masked Rog wrote...

Upsettingshorts wrote...

People going back and forth about which self-limiting class systems give them more roleplaying freedom makes my skill-based system loving head spin.

Actually I agree with you. Oblivion had the best char creation system I have ever seen. But I imagine the forum would uproar if they implemented such a thing in DA:O.

i wouldn't mind a classless system for the protagonist while leaving the class system intact for companions, it would be an interesting experiment.

If you couldn't tell from the uproar every time BioWare tweaks the slightest thing, an "experiment" (even if it is one I agree with, that would be really interesting) would create some sort of rage singularity.

[Monica83]

Im not aganis this after all a only stat skill system can work well for an rpg if well implemented around roleplay opportunity can be a nice thing.. what i don't want is too much stramlization in order to keep distinction this broke also the roleplay factor and force you to complete follow a way... Now a mage that kill 3 ennemy in a melee fight is ridicolus but a mage warrior that combine well theyr mage skill and the warrior skill its awesome to play.... for this i love also the 3.5 D&D version and i hate the 4ed..

In dragon age series can work also well if... well implemented..

[The Masked Rog]

nightcobra8928 wrote...

The Masked Rog wrote...

Upsettingshorts wrote...

People going back and forth about which self-limiting class systems give them more roleplaying freedom makes my skill-based system loving head spin.

Actually I agree with you. Oblivion had the best char creation system I have ever seen. But I imagine the forum would uproar if they implemented such a thing in DA:O.

i wouldn't mind a classless system for the protagonist while leaving the class system intact for companions, it would be an interesting experiment.

It wouldn't really matter, since if they did it ala Oblivion, a class is built by choosing skills. You can't really change your major skills after char creation, so if the companions came with pre selected skills they would effectively have a "class". Actually, I think the player choosing the skills is interpreted by the game as the player creating a custom class.

[The Masked Rog]

Nerivant wrote...

nightcobra8928 wrote...

The Masked Rog wrote...

Upsettingshorts wrote...

People going back and forth about which self-limiting class systems give them more roleplaying freedom makes my skill-based system loving head spin.

Actually I agree with you. Oblivion had the best char creation system I have ever seen. But I imagine the forum would uproar if they implemented such a thing in DA:O.

i wouldn't mind a classless system for the protagonist while leaving the class system intact for companions, it would be an interesting experiment.

If you couldn't tell from the uproar every time BioWare tweaks the slightest thing, an "experiment" (even if it is one I agree with, that would be really interesting) would create some sort of rage singularity.

I sincerely hope BioWare doesn't take forum uproar as a parameter in their desicion making process. Because then their games would be rehashes of previous games and we'd still be playing a game akin to Baldur's Gate or Kotor.

[nightcobra]

Nerivant wrote...

If you couldn't tell from the uproar every time BioWare tweaks the slightest thing, an "experiment" (even if it is one I agree with, that would be really interesting) would create some sort of rage singularity.

oh i'd expect it:devil:, like gaider feeds on tears i've also acquired a taste for it.

tastes like caaaandy:devil:

[Monica83]

And i am aganist give the main character this option and not to companion.. i loved origin because all character when you meet them have the ability and stat based on their past this is a great thing and follow the roleplay factor...



In da 2 companion have unique skills tree that make me laught hard why i can't have acces to my companion skill? When gameplay things enter in conflict with roleplay factor its always a bad thing in a roleplay game..

[upsettingshorts]

Oblivion is a decent example.

I like the systems of Fallout 1-2 and New Vegas myself. Fallout 3 did away with traits, and I welcomed them back in NV though I wish there were more of them.

There are still attributes (SPECIAL) and skills, and perks/traits provide some amusing or useful flavor to the character. There are no arbitrary restrictions on what I can and can't pursue as a player like there are in class based systems.

Modifié par Upsettingshorts, 01 décembre 2010 - 02:50 .

[Sir JK]

soteria wrote...
Well, that's true, but can't we balance the game to give stats less effect? One thing I've found while making my videos is that playing with worse stats/gear forces me to play more tactically. I remember beancounter501 commented that when he took his all-warrior group to the Broodmother, he just meleed her down with little effort. If Bioware had balanced stats and gear better, that wouldn't have been possible.
Or, couldn't we implement mechanics that prevent you from overpowering a fight with high stats? I can think of examples of what I'm thinking of from several games. In World of Warcraft, a mage was required to spellsteal a shield from a certain boss in order to succeed (it reduced incoming damage by ~90%). In Chrono Trigger, you had to cast fire spells at ogres to reduce their defenses, or you'd only deal ~20% damage. You couldn't ignore the tactical situation with high stats in either case.
We probably can't do anything about time manipulation (other than not letting you issue commands while paused) but I do believe we can fix or mitigate the stat issue.

In theory that woud work, if coupled with expanding the on-site tactical approach I could see it increasing difficulty. Making it being your active in-combat decisions that determines your success and that the stat-building can only influence it. Tone up the reliance on abilities, character combos, positioning (perhaps even party formation... but that seems tricky with only four) and introduce the possibility that the situation may change.
That latter part was hinted at having been taken a step towards since our enemies will now be recieving reinforcements during combat (if that's still in). But perhaps further steps would be beneficial? Something that may make you need to change your initital plan mid-combat.
In theory. It could all be frustrating mess too

[The Masked Rog]

Monica83 wrote...

And i am aganist give the main character this option and not to companion.. i loved origin because all character when you meet them have the ability and stat based on their past this is a great thing and follow the roleplay factor...

In da 2 companion have unique skills tree that make me laught hard why i can't have acces to my companion skill? When gameplay things enter in conflict with roleplay factor its always a bad thing in a roleplay game..

That increases the roleplay factor to me because the backstory of certain characters is reflected in their skills. You can't access their skills because you lack the ability to learn them, the experience they have had to perfect them and that really makes the roleplay more engrossing.

[Xewaka]

Upsettingshorts wrote...

I like the systems of Fallout 1-2 and New Vegas myself. Fallout 3 did away with traits, and I welcomed them back in NV though I wish there were more of them.

There are still attributes (SPECIAL) and skills, and perks/traits provide some amusing or useful flavor to the character. There are no arbitrary restrictions on what I can and can't pursue as a player like there are in class based systems.

Fallout is nice in the character creation aspect. It works better on a single player (as is relatively easy to "max out" most skills), but construction points have always sit better with me.

[Nighteye2]

The Masked Rog wrote...
I actually think distinct classes is a huge leap forward, even if these means you can't have a dualwield warrior. What was the difference between a DW rogue and warrior? In combat, none, only in some out of combat skills. This made it very difficult to draw a line between a rogue and a warrior combat wise, because you could have very similar rogues and warriors.

Distinct classes, yes. Static classes, no. Instead of cutting abilities, they should differentiate them. Give warriors and rogues different dual-wield skills - and different archery skills. There are multiple dual-weapon fighting styles...

[soteria]

Sir JK wrote...

In theory. It could all be frustrating mess too

Well, that's always the catch, now isn't it? It's always in the implementation. I was excited about the plans they had for the stats in DA:O, but it didn't work out quite right. This time I'm "cautiously optimistic" after seeing the proposed changes. Actually, that's my attitude toward DA2 in general. I think I'll like some features and I don't think I'll like other features, but ultimately it depends on how Bioware puts them together.

[AlanC9]

The Masked Rog wrote...
 Oblivion had the best char creation system I have ever seen

Except for blowing up game balance when you actually try to play a freely-designed character. Which isn't really a knock on Oblivion; that's just what happens in skill-based systems when a GM doesn't actively keep a lid on things.

Edit: that's what happens in complicated games with synergies, anyway. Games with relatively simple combat don't have that happen, but I don't think that's relevant to DA2.

Modifié par AlanC9, 01 décembre 2010 - 06:49 .

[bsbcaer]

Yeah, I know Im about five days late to this discussion and we've probably gone on since then in this thread....but for those of you talking about the Baldur's Gate games, I would just like to point out that RPG's existed prior to Baldur's gate coming out. Wizardry, A Bard's Tale, and Might and Magic were all considered some of the top RPG's of their time, but Im sure that you agree that we have "evolved" from those games to expand how an RPG is played electronically (to include consoles here To say that the addition of something is a step back is a misnomer and if you insist on talking about evolution of video games, we can discuss about how certain traits may lead to an evolutionary dead-end, but unless you're talking about a game that is going back to the roots of the 1980s, then you're not really talking about a game devolving...

[The Masked Rog]

AlanC9 wrote...

The Masked Rog wrote...
 Oblivion had the best char creation system I have ever seen

Except for blowing up game balance when you actually try to play a freely-designed character. Which isn't really a knock on Oblivion; that's just what happens in skill-based systems when a GM doesn't actively keep a lid on things.

Edit: that's what happens in complicated games with synergies, anyway. Games with relatively simple combat don't have that happen, but I don't think that's relevant to DA2.

Yep, I suppose some of the weirdest combos can go that way, but its the price you pay for flexibility. I can't really say I ran into trouble with my assassin-marksman-alchemist-illusionist or my paladin like chars. A extremely flexible set of difficulty options also help, I'd imagine.

[turian councilor Knockout]

I wonder if rogues are still able to backstab with those teleport like fighting moves or are the entire combat system ****ed up, i would really appreciate if someone know the answer.

[KalDurenik]

Like i said before i dont agree with the video. Depth and complexity come from a interesting gameplay system that allow the player lots of options and choices on how to deal with a situation and how and what to use to counter it. Not based on the tutorial that you have. (yes i know he said "choices on how to deal with problems" but his overall reasoning was wrong in my opinion).



The wheel make the player feel like he is not playing the game. More like watching a movie (and a bad one at that) it just happen to be a movie with a few choices here and there. When you play a rpg you are meant to play as that character yet you will never know how your character will react when you press on one of the things on the wheel of doom. Anyone remember the "Sigh"? Great example...



And why cant they make the combat more responsive and still tactical? Instead they removed all the tactics and turned it into a somewhat of a action hack and slash combat... Why cant it be more responsive so that instead of "you press button and wait" you press the button and the character react in other words... Remove the delay.



Then there is the lack of PC information sure there is a "dont worry" thread but tbh it just say "all your fears will come true... dont worry about it!"



Overall im not impressed and it might be the 2nd Bioware PC game that i dont buy.

[upsettingshorts]

KalDurenik wrote...

Instead they removed all the tactics and turned it into a somewhat of a action hack and slash combat...

They didn't do that.

KalDurenik wrote...

Why cant it be more responsive so that instead of "you press button and wait" you press the button and the character react in other words... Remove the delay.

That's precisely what they did.

Modifié par Upsettingshorts, 02 décembre 2010 - 09:39 .

[Andraste_Reborn]

We'll never see a class-free system in DA, because it would conflict with the lore too much in regard to mages. There's no picking up a spell here and there in Thedas, either you can shoot lightning at fools or you can't.

[KalDurenik]

Upsettingshorts wrote...

KalDurenik wrote...

Instead they removed all the tactics and turned it into a somewhat of a action hack and slash combat...

They didn't do that.

KalDurenik wrote...

Why cant it be more responsive so that instead of "you press button and wait" you press the button and the character react in other words... Remove the delay.

That's precisely what they did.

A certain persons aid you could just "button mash your way past mobs" so... Sure you could pause... But WHY would you do that? Its pointless if all you need to do is press 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 2 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1. Sure you could press pause and press 4 32 1 5 4 3 5 4 or whatever but WHY would you do that? Dragon Age 1 lacked depth and difficulty... You could use 1-3 abilities and complete the game never being required to change them. Dragon Age 2 seem to have less abilities, less depth and less complexity.

[The Masked Rog]

KalDurenik wrote...

Upsettingshorts wrote...

KalDurenik wrote...

Instead they removed all the tactics and turned it into a somewhat of a action hack and slash combat...

They didn't do that.

KalDurenik wrote...

Why cant it be more responsive so that instead of "you press button and wait" you press the button and the character react in other words... Remove the delay.

That's precisely what they did.

A certain persons aid you could just "button mash your way past mobs" so... Sure you could pause... But WHY would you do that? Its pointless if all you need to do is press 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 2 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1. Sure you could press pause and press 4 32 1 5 4 3 5 4 or whatever but WHY would you do that? Dragon Age 1 lacked depth and difficulty... You could use 1-3 abilities and complete the game never being required to change them. Dragon Age 2 seem to have less abilities, less depth and less complexity.

And that's a great feature of DA1. Complexity and depth ala carte, so to speak. If you wish to engage in a more tactical gameplay you can up the difficulty and employ more abilities and talents. If you just wish to experience the story, you can just hack away, lowering the difficulty. I don't think it is that bad a thing if DA2 makes the latter option more satisfying, while keeping the former.

[Sir JK]

KalDurenik: The only thing we've seen of the game thus far is a short demo sequence played on easy where the character you control is ultimately immortal, some in which those that tried not using tactics got their entire party (minus controlled charcter) destroyed.



I understand the concern that there will be fewer abilities and less of a need to use them. Mind that we have not seen anything that support this worry, and that you might be right but at this point is equally likely you are wrong.

However, if there are indeed fewer abilities but greater differentiation between them then it's possible that this could increase the depth by making each individual ability matter more. Providing fewer but more specialised tools as it were. Just speculation I admit, but it's something that's not entirely unlikely.



And finally... there is a rumour that the enemy will now recieve reinforcements during combat. That half-way through suddenly two new rogues and a mage shows up and beelines for your starved-for-mana mage. If that is indeed true then I think conserving stamina/mana will be very very important.

[KalDurenik]

Thats just the thing... If they LOWER the depth and complexity from what DAO had then there wont be anything left. Why? Because the hardest is super easy in DAO.



Well you have some devs saying "just hack and slash past it" there are also leaked movies and so on... And all the previews say "hack and slashish" and then you have a few devs here saying "There are tactics!"



So who should one trust? I think i trust my own eyes and the majority of previews.



Less abilities dont add more depth... The problem is that that i wished they would make it more complex and make the game have more depths by adding abilities, skills, talents, feats or what ever... Instead they removed stuff. If all i need is fireball and heal why use anything else? To make more "complex"? There is simply no NEED its just overkill... Kinda like using a baseball bat to smash the fly.



Sadly the enemy from what i have seen in the videos are still as stupid as a rock and have the problem where they just stand there and look at you. If me and 9 others was fighting 1 person the common thing would be to hit him from all sides... Sadly they dont do that...



But oh well...

Im not going to buy the game untill the price is atleast 50% less. Sadly i dont like the direction Bioware is taking. Not with combat, story, wheel, gameplay.