343 réponses à ce sujet

[Gtdef]

Monica83 wrote...

Since i don't want to explain the same point i already explained tons of times if you want to understeand what i mean check the Things & Concerns you don't like in DA2 anyways...

Mass effect 2 is not an rpg its a shooter with a nice story or a graphic novel
The witcher 2 added the schematic dialog system but isn't a problem if you have a premaded total character like geralt and they also taking care for hardcore gamers i follow with interest what cd-Project are making and i find they way to take care for both audience nice... They improve action but they improve roleplay to...

Dragon age 2: Crap anims,Streamlized as hell, Static classes,Static companion outfit,Static Race Selection (this is not a problem because its the story of hawke),Gameplay much more similiar to a beat em up (on console), or a Streamlized Origins (for pc),Nice texture on graphic but i hate this minimalism on ambience..(since we don't seen a lot of location we will see)

In the case of Mass Effect 2 and his fantasy version Dragon age 2 i don't see any evolution..

Oh I see, the stuff we still know almost nothing about and the other stuff that is the same as witcher 2. You should cross check witcher 2 and da2 better. And actually, most things you said, are all new to us, not old. My argument is not about what we like, is about what new mechanism is introduced in the game and the fact that there should be sacrifices in terms of depth and treatment of the hardcore players in order to focus on the more technical aspects like graphics and gameplay. Perhaps I'm wrong and the game will have depth and it will be ultimately satisfying to the gamers that prefer old school/hardcore, or perhaps Bioware's goal is different and I'm just completely off.

To explain further. Who cares what genre Mass Effect is. The thing here, is that back in 90s, you were playing adventure games and in conversations you would choose a line, and the character would repeat the same line. Some years later, the rpgs would use the conversation system mainly without voice, and now, after those long years of waiting, comes Bioware and introduces a new conversation sytem that is actually consistent and bug free. This sytem will be used for the first time in a medieval setting rpg, and we are waiting to see if it will be successful. And that's evolution. Now if you don't like Hawke's beard or the colour of flowers in the demo, well, this is not what we are talking about.

[turian councilor Knockout]

Monica83 wrote...

I don't think mass effect 2 is a step forward i think mass effect 2 is a great step backward from the first like its happening between origins and dragon age 2.. Baldur's gate saga have a deep depth great characters a lot of detail in world and an awesome plot... Yes maybe the engine is old... But Bg2 still have much more content than the recent games... Number of monster number of npc you meet great location dungeon always different quest and great sidequest also companion personal quests you really can't compare bg saga with the recent games...

 "Ah yes"  you think that mass effect 2 is a step backwards ?
Mass effect 2 is better in nearly every way characters depth, weapons, combat,graphic and have lots of more and better DLC's.

ME 1 have better story and some liked the deeper RPG elements but in all ME 2 is a
much better game.

You should wait until Dragon age 2 is released before you draw conclusions.
                                                

[Vena_86]

David Gaider wrote...

relhart wrote...

They aren't the lowest common denominator, they are average.


130+
Very superior
2.2%

120-129
Superior
6.7%

110-119
High average
16.1%

90-109
Average
50%

80-89
Low average
16.1%

70-79
Borderline
6.7%

Below 70
Extremely low
2.2%

IQ scores broken up by percentage of population. Obviously making a game that caters to people in the 90-120 range is going to appeal to the largest possible audience, (and presumably the highest sales) Mystery solved. DAO wasn't a hard game as it was, it certainly didn't have real strategic depth to it. I don't see DA2 as being much of a departure from that. (based on the little I have seen of it)  Honestly my fellow 130+ ers, you should be used to mass marketed media being this way.

Seriously?

So the assumption is, evidently, that the more hardcore someone is the smarter they are? And the people who don't want a difficult game are therefore either average or dumb? And that, by extension, it's the smart people who are our more worthwhile customers?

I have no opinion on where game difficulty ends up-- gameplay is not my bailiwick-- but if you ask me it's opinions like this from the hardcore that make developers not regret making games more accessible in the slightest.

Accessible is good. Limitations are not. It is also not very nice to be labeled "hardcore" just because you find button mashing on rails boring and insulting.
What a game ideally should do is being very accessible for most people but offer enough depth on the long run, for people who really like to get into the game and look for an intelectual challenge and not only a challenge for their thumbs, for 3 evenings. A good example is what Blizzard is usually doing with games like Star Craft: Accessible and entertaining for casual players but with the depth to become probably the most competative and long living game ever.
A bad example is Assassins Creed 2: Accessible but you reach the top very soon, and from there on it is just pressing buttons, which after a while feels like a waste of time. When a game is very easy and does not even have a changable difficulty setting, then that is a fail and makes more demanding people angry, because they feel like they have to go down to the same level of people who don't really give damn about the game.

So again, what developers should aim for, is making games with accessible depth for the largest possible audience.
Dragon Age should have introduced it's depth better and more intuitively while ME2 was oversimplified and needed more complexity to not lose the initial fascination half way through the game.
Finding the balance is the key and finding ways to introduce complexity in understandable and intuitive ways even more.

BTW, I don't approve of labeling audience through IQ values either. There are very smart casual gamers too. The problem is really about intentionally limiting depth for the casual market without even trying to do what I explained above.

Modifié par Vena_86, 26 novembre 2010 - 10:32 .

[Monica83]

Baldurs gate is one of the best rpg off all times if someone hated it i don't think can appreciate the gdr genre..Now we have games like fable that suppose to be rpg but they don't have nothing of rpg anyways Baldurs gate saga is a masterpiece of Rpg series.. If you tell it sucked maybe rpg is not your genre.. Im not talking of QI or other things like that.. Im just say if you don't like a genre of games why you pretend to change it to make it more confortable for your tastes? Simple don't play rpg's

[Monica83]

Its evolution take a game like a Dragon age origins and strip it from all this feature streamlized it as hell? na... again evolution mean go on not go back

[ErichHartmann]

*Adds streamline to a list words that have lost all meaning on this forum*

[Lotion Soronarr]

relhart wrote...

They aren't the lowest common denominator, they are average.


130+
Very superior
2.2%

120-129
Superior
6.7%

110-119
High average
16.1%

90-109
Average
50%

80-89
Low average
16.1%

70-79
Borderline
6.7%

Below 70
Extremely low
2.2%

IQ scores broken up by percentage of population. Obviously making a game that caters to people in the 90-120 range is going to appeal to the largest possible audience, (and presumably the highest sales) Mystery solved. DAO wasn't a hard game as it was, it certainly didn't have real strategic depth to it. I don't see DA2 as being much of a departure from that. (based on the little I have seen of it)  Honestly my fellow 130+ ers, you should be used to mass marketed media being this way.

You do realise that IQ scores are completely pointless. Heck, my score on such tasts varried, in a 30 point range. And that's a lot. On the high end I got a score of 150. On the low end I got 120 or less.
Simply put IQ tests serve little purpose, not even as a general indicator of anything. Not only is something as nebolous as intelligence extreemy difficult to mesure, it'+s also innacuare, because there are aparently many different types of intelligence. And because the tests simpyl shows your ability to solve a SPECIFIC set of a problems in a SPECIFIC point in time, while in a SPECIFIC frame of mind. One can get different scores on the same IQ test depending on the time of day one takes it...so it's useless.

When one speaks of a lowest common denominator, in this case it means to people who have low standards. They're not critical enough. They don't know enough, they don't dig deep enough. They set their bar too low, and as such, it is perfectly justified for other poepl, who set the bar higher, to feel that these people drag down the whole industry. After all, if people are satisfied with mediocre things, then there is no incentive to create great things.

[Monica83]

I played the demo at Lucca comix and games.. And i don't think DA2 will be a great rpg maybe a good one.... or a medium one... but not a great rpg...Since i tryed mass effect and mass effect 2 and i must say mass effect 2 its the most ridicolus streamlized title i ever play... This streamlization kill the depth of a rpg strip off mass effect 2 of his "Cutscene's" and the game will be not so great after all...



But peoples is those days are so much impressed from voiced characters and cutscene's too much in fact many title maked in that way lose much potential

[turian councilor Knockout]

Some people just see the flaws of a game not the improvements, you just take up the bad things and don't care about write things that actually have been improved.

Modifié par turian councilor Knockout, 26 novembre 2010 - 10:44 .

[Monica83]

Ho yes the great improvements of dragon age 2



1) only improvement: Voice chat

2) graphic

-----------------------------------------------

Crap trashy animations

Static classes

Schematic Dialogues

Static Outfit of party

Short than Origins

No race selection

Global streamlization



Ohhhhhhh soo much improvement! pleeeasseee...

[Bryy_Miller]

Monica, I think you lost your credibility when you said that anyone that doesn't like one singular game doesn't know what an entire genre is. I liked Baldur's Gate, it ushered it a completely new era of game development. But it would be foolish to think that the game mechanics that made it what it was should not be improved upon. As negative as it sounds, we're no longer in 1998. I mean, 1998. Just look at what modern games have become in such a short time. It's amazing. 

Modifié par Bryy_Miller, 26 novembre 2010 - 10:56 .

[turian councilor Knockout]

Monica83 wrote...

Ho yes the great improvements of dragon age 2

1) only improvement: Voice chat
2) graphic
-----------------------------------------------
Crap trashy animations
Static classes
Schematic Dialogues
Static Outfit of party
Short than Origins
No race selection
Global streamlization

Ohhhhhhh soo much improvement! pleeeasseee...

I do get your point of view but things can still change and i agree that no race selection, shorter playtime and the removal of for example dual wield sucks but i don't that think that Bioware will make a mediocre sequel to a fantastic first game.

I meant improvements in Mass effect 2 since dragon age 2 is not out yet .
ME 2 have better classes,squadmates, combat, characters, more exploration and animations to name a few improvements but this is no mass effect forum so i will stop here.

Modifié par turian councilor Knockout, 26 novembre 2010 - 11:15 .

[FedericoV]

Vena_86 wrote...
So again, what developers should aim for, is making games with accessible depth for the largest possible audience.
Dragon Age should have introduced it's depth better and more intuitively while ME2 was oversimplified and needed more complexity to not lose the initial fascination half way through the game.
Finding the balance is the key and finding ways to introduce complexity in understandable and intuitive ways even more.

I completely agree with your position, wich was the point of the original article of The Escapist. That's what I hope for DA2: accessible depth. If not, at least I will enjoy the story...

Having said that, I would contest the notion of DA:O being a game with depth. Yep, it was complex but complexity it's not the same as depth (not allways). In my opinion DA:O's artificial complexity covered its missing depth. DA:O was a pretty flat game in term of intellectual challenge. Writing, storytelling and NPC characterization, saved its not so great gameplay.

[Monica83]

Bryy im not so closed mind people i like the witcher and its actiony.. i own a console with fallout 3 assasins creed and many others game.. Im not an elitist

[JPR1964]

turian councilor Knockout wrote...


I do get your point of view but things can still change and i agree that no race selection, shorter playtime and the removal of for example dual wield sucks but i don't that think that Bioware will make a mediocre sequel to a fantastic first game.

I meant improvements in Mass effect 2 since dragon age 2 is not out yet .
ME 2 have better classes,squadmates, combat, characters, more exploration and animations to name a few improvements.

Huh?

Mass effect 2 has streamlined classes with less diversification : some have main power useless past normal difficulty...

Squadmate : we have more choices, but less diversification too...

combat : shoot and duck are in my opinion, not an improvement...

more exploration ??? That 's a joke, no? Small map, small cities, corridor worlds all the way... You need the firewalker pack to have some REAL exploration.

And I don't want start talking about the losses...

br,

JPR

[Monica83]

Turian i accept your optimism and i am sorry if i looked like silly i respect your point of wiew of course anyways i don't see how can be better we have only few improvements and soo many cut down feature from the first.. Even if i cut off the race selection thing from the list and i can after all its the story of hawke right? We still have a huge list of stepback from the original... Dragon age 2 its not out but if you consider the short Dev time and the clear info we have and the videos around we have enought to make an idea..

[FedericoV]

Bryy_Miller wrote...

Monica, I think you lost your credibility when you said that anyone that doesn't like one singular game doesn't know what an entire genre is. I liked Baldur's Gate, it ushered it a completely new era of game development. But it would be foolish to think that the game mechanics that made it what it was should not be improved upon. As negative as it sounds, we're no longer in 1998. I mean, 1998. Just look at what modern games have become in such a short time. It's amazing. 

Well, while I do not think that there is a single way to make RPGs and while I agree that Monica's position is a little bit exagerated, it seems to me that SC2 or Diablo II mechaninc have aged pretty well... I'm replaying Fallout 2 in those days and it's another game that has aged pretty good as well. So, it's not that old=bad. It depends.

I do not think that a real upgrade to BG 1/2 formula would be bad... quite the opposite. I mean, a real upgrade, not a spiritual successor thing .

I understand why Bioware wants to move on and do different things. They want to make storydriven and cinematic RPGS. I respect them and continue to play their games.

But I really do not understand why there is no one who wants to develop a real tactical RPG. There is a market for tactical RPGs wich is not niche. Tactical RPGs have allways sold very well, especially D&D titles. I really hope that when Hasbro and Atari will have solved the issue about D&D videogames, we will see a new generation of games on the like of the Golden/Black Box ones and the IE's ones.

[Monica83]

One singular game? Sorry but baldur's gate saga its not only a singular game its a masterpiece if someone say: It sucked im a bit mmmmh i don't know the english word so i say it in italian "Perplessa"...

Aboute loose my credibility this is a bad thing and that insults me.. I only sayd "For me" if someone say that BG sucked and i repeat For me Rpg is not the games for him...



After all baldur's gate its a great rpg a true masterpiece..nothing more to say..



Anyways my "Credibility" its not something of we can debate

[turian councilor Knockout]

Monica83 wrote...

Turian i accept your optimism and i am sorry if i looked like silly i respect your point of wiew of course anyways i don't see how can be better we have only few improvements and soo many cut down feature from the first.. Even if i cut off the race selection thing from the list and i can after all its the story of hawke right? We still have a huge list of stepback from the original... Dragon age 2 its not out but if you consider the short Dev time and the clear info we have and the videos around we have enought to make an idea..

you are right that there a many things to be worried about but i atleast hope that the removal of choosing race will give us a deeper main character, more backstory, ways of customization and  a character that actually shows expressions and feelings.

And with no dual wield we can maybe get more options how to spec our character with more talents and spells.

I maybe explained myself bad but i really shudder about the thought of DA 2 being crappy especially since DAO was so great.

By the way Baldurs Gate series is the best rpg's ever created.

Modifié par turian councilor Knockout, 26 novembre 2010 - 11:49 .

[JPR1964]

FedericoV wrote...

Having said that, I would contest the notion of DA:O being a game with depth. Yep, it was complex but complexity it's not the same as depth (not allways). In my opinion DA:O's artificial complexity covered its missing depth. DA:O was a pretty flat game in term of intellectual challenge. Writing, storytelling and NPC characterization, saved its not so great gameplay.

Depth don't mean "intellectual challenge"...

If I follow you : mass effect 2 has absolutely no depth at all, and for what I have tested of DA2 , no depth too...

I don't  see any depth at all in any action game... Fun is another story...

br,

JPR

[Leonia]

ErichHartmann wrote...

*Adds streamline to a list words that have lost all meaning on this forum*

Aye, it's always been a part of my Forum Drinking Game ™.

[Xewaka]

nightcobra8928 wrote...

for me, time has not been too kind to the BG series. as far as plot and characters go the quality is still there but the gameplay is now to me very dated seriously limiting my enjoyment.

Well, I decided to fire it up again a couple of weeks ago and so far I'm finding it enjoyable.
Granted, my choice of character might be a big part of the fun.
I mean, who wouldn't enjoy playing this?

[The Masked Rog]

Monica83 wrote...

Bg? Sucked? I don't think you can appreciate an rpg game at this point

Funny cause I loved every subsequent Bioware RPG, as well as NWN2, Fafllout series, Drakensang, etc...

[The Masked Rog]

Monica83 wrote...

One singular game? Sorry but baldur's gate saga its not only a singular game its a masterpiece if someone say: It sucked im a bit mmmmh i don't know the english word so i say it in italian "Perplessa"...
Aboute loose my credibility this is a bad thing and that insults me.. I only sayd "For me" if someone say that BG sucked and i repeat For me Rpg is not the games for him...

After all baldur's gate its a great rpg a true masterpiece..nothing more to say..

Anyways my "Credibility" its not something of we can debate

All opinions. The Baldur's Gate series in no way defined the RPG genre, nor was it it's maximum exponential to many players. Many don't think that bloated gameplay mechanics or complex rules, tons of similar spells, etc... define the RPG genre. Mass Effect is for me, the true RPG masterpiece. I still don't say that if you don't appreciate Mass Effect you can't enjoy RPGs. Because that would make no sense, everyone has their preferences, and there should be no usch thing as a genre-defining game.