24 réponses à ce sujet

[rickcr]

I've been searching forums and google about the best rogue builds for damage and dps.

I like the concept of a Cunning rogue build (Having both Leliana and myself with song of courage.)

When I see people talk about this build they typially mention pour everything into cunning and just keep the bare minimum in dexterity.

My questions is HOW have people determined this work out the best for sustained high DPS? Does it have to do with getting the automatic crits from being sure the opponent is stunned? Otherwise I would think throwing in some more dexterity that would avoid misses would be extremely important.  (In a simple scenario: a rogue that does half the damage per hit as anotthet rogue, will do a lot more dps if he hits 3 times as much as the higher damage per hit rogue.)

My guess is that coup de grace is the wildcard here? Assuming you have a lot of paralyze runes (or your party has mobs incapicitated a lot), you'd be getting automatic backstab crits quite often.

[termokanden]

Discobird made an excellent thread about this ages ago, and here it is. So the idea is that cunning dagger/dagger has the highest DPS if every attack connects.

Actual hit rates of course are not 100% and will be lower for the cunning based build. That is why you need buffs to compensate. Cunning rogues benefit greatly from various combat buffs, most notably Song of Courage and Rally I think. There is also a bonust to attack for backstabbing.

From my own testing, cunning rogues have near-perfect hit rates in most cases with a few of these buffs running so it isn't really a big problem.

It all works best if you keep backstabbing though. If your rogue ends up soloing a lot, I think a dex build is much better.

[rickcr]

Cool thanks Termokanden. Yea right now I'm using a party and backstabbing. It's actually sort of boring (on nightmare second run though) so I might mix things up and maybe try out a ranger. Right now Shale runs in and uses his skills to keep all the aggro. Wynne keeps him healed and throws around buffs. Leliana damages from afar and my rogue runs around stabbing all the dudes in the back that are attacking shale. It's cool but I think I had more fun with my mage. We'll see though, my rogue is only around 12.

[termokanden]

Yeah, the problem with a backstabbing rogue is that backstabbing is pretty much all you do. You don't even need to use talents at all.



Perhaps it's time to shamelessly endorse 2h warriors. Going to start my third one up soon

[ussnorway]

Understand that the X-box cunning rogue and the PC cunning rogue are completely different beasts!

[termokanden]

How so?



I've only played the PC version, by the way.

[caladorne]

I've done the high cun build and found that two bards (self and Leli) and Wynne buffing made me a shredding machine. With high enough cunning, the dex bug matters little outside of talents.

[miltos33]

As of Patch 1.02 the dex bug is fixed.

[miltos33]

Sorry, double post.

Modifié par miltos33, 25 novembre 2010 - 10:51 .

[tonnactus]

The tradeoff cunning rogues have to made is a big one.Dexterity also improves the damage of daggers in addition to increase physical resistance,attack rate and defense.The only thing a cunning rogue gets is high damage in theory.(but not really in gameplay,because a lot of hits are misses)

Cunning rogues are overrated for sure.

http://www.wegame.com/watch/dex-rogue/
http://www.wegame.co.../cunning-rogue/

Modifié par tonnactus, 27 novembre 2010 - 07:35 .

[Liliandra Nadiar]

For solo Nightmare games, yes.

For regular games a bardic cunning rouge is very useful.

[tonnactus]

Liliandra Nadiar wrote...

For solo Nightmare games, yes.
For regular games a bardic cunning rouge is very useful.

I play on the xbox where i couldnt control my party as good as someone can who play on Pc.So a lot of times i end up solo without wanting it. And there i need any surviability i can get.

[Liliandra Nadiar]

Then yes. For solo survivability, Dex is 80% of what you need. The remaining 20% is either Armor, Con or a mix of both to survive the auto-hit attacks.

[rickcr]

I'm going to have read through all the posts after the main chart you see on the post previously mentioned: http://social.biowar...66/index/223777



If you look at that chart there is an asterisk that is a HUGE HUGE assumption...



"100% hit rate. Unfortunately I cannot calculate the hit rate of each build without knowing the average monster defense rating. However attack rating is quite easy to boost with party buffs. Anecdotally, some people have said they've achieved quite high hit rates with cunning builds."



Isn't that big assumption to make when calculating DPS to overlook it?

[Addai]

I would have to look it up, but my cunning rogue had an extremely high hit rate. Close to 100 in Awakening. I did put some points into dex on her, however.

[DragonOfWhiteThunder]

Song of Courage is generally enough to compensate for a lower base attack rating.

[rickcr]

DragonOfWhiteThunder wrote...

Song of Courage is generally enough to compensate for a lower base attack rating.

Plus since I'm doing nightmare with a party and have Leliana, I have her with high cunning and song of courage.

Speaking of Leliana, when I don't need her for range fighting vs archers and mages, I might just leave her with "captivating song" activated. I'd think my rogue's coup de grace should count vs the stunned targets and my DPS would really sore. (Sure probably not the best overall DPS taking Leliana' archery out of the equation, but I think it might be a fun way to play... where I do all the DPS in the party:)

[Liliandra Nadiar]

Should be viable(ish), it will remove the song of courage I think, and Leliana will be very vulnerable. Nightmare will mean the stun lasts the least length and will be resisted (or ignored outright by 2-handers).

[Arthur Cousland]

My rogue is about 50% dex and cun and he's a one dwarf killing machine on nightmare difficulty. I think any more cunning might be overkill, plus dexterity is good for accuracy and defense.



My rogue could do all of the dps in the party if I let him. He's a bard/assassin/legionnaire scout and his party damage is over 40%, but I've restricted him to using regular daggers to keep him from killing as fast, as I like to play with my opposition for a bit before delivering the finishing blow. His hit rate is supposedly 100%, though that doesn't seem quite right. He does miss...on occasion. Since he does more than enough damage for me, I usually go with Song of Valor for the party benefit, even though my rogue doesn't need the stamina regen himself.



Coup de grace+as many paralyze runes in your daggers as possible is a deadly combo. Automatic backstabs against paralyzed targets and you'll be paralyzing them often with the runes.

[K2QB3]

I've spent a lot of hours with various rogue builds solo and with a party and I'm convinced you want to invest in both Dex and Cunning, just get enough cunning to hit 70 w/gear and the rest in Dex, best of all worlds. The pure Dex build ends up with more defense than is necessary, has to invest four talent points into deft hands and really loses out on all the assasin/bard buffs and the pure cunning build really suffers from poor attack/defense, especially with a bow which is essential for solo. By investing in both you can skip the deft hands tree and get all your combat talents earlier and late game you still have enough Dex w/gear to be useful.

[Janni-in-VA]

K2QB3 wrote...

I've spent a lot of hours with various rogue builds solo and with a party and I'm convinced you want to invest in both Dex and Cunning, just get enough cunning to hit 70 w/gear and the rest in Dex, best of all worlds. The pure Dex build ends up with more defense than is necessary, has to invest four talent points into deft hands and really loses out on all the assasin/bard buffs and the pure cunning build really suffers from poor attack/defense, especially with a bow which is essential for solo. By investing in both you can skip the deft hands tree and get all your combat talents earlier and late game you still have enough Dex w/gear to be useful.

Ah!  Someone who builds rogues the way I do.  I get Constitution up to around 20 and Strength up to around 22, then put everything else into Dexterity and Cunning.  Works well for me and gives me a PC who can switch fairly effortlessly between dual wielding and a bow.  I don't buy the higher level gear such as Rose's Thorn or Felon's Coat.  I never have.  So, I equip my rogue with the best weapons they can wield (dragonbone longswords require a Strength of 24) and drakeskin armor (requires Strength of 20).  I'm not a fan of min/maxing, perhaps because I've never played on a difficulty higher than Hard in any game.

[termokanden]

Well the thing is that if you use dagger/dagger or also archery, pretty much any mix of dex and cunning will work out. You have to invest very heavily in dex to be unhittable, and for theoretical max DPS you have to invest heavily in cunning.

But really a mix is good, affording you a little more defense, a little more chance to hit and doesn't cost you all that much in terms of damage. I know, I've played max dex and max cunning builds. And the max dex build is still a killing machine.

Still...

The pure Dex build ends up with more defense than is necessary, has to invest four talent points into deft hands and really loses out on all the assasin/bard buffs and the pure cunning build really suffers from poor attack/defense, especially with a bow which is essential for solo.

For pure dex I don't invest in Deft Hands, I have someone else handle it. As for the assassin buffs, yes you lose a bit. But then from my experience, damage is still great. As for the pure cunning build, for solo I don't think it's very good, but for anything else I didn't find low attack bonus to be that much of a problem. You could bring another bard or a champion. In fact, my current cunning rogue has a sky-high attack bonus due to group buffs.

Oh and about weapons. I don't quite get why you would avoid the best dagger (probably the best weapon in the game for a rogue) and then go on to use a longsword when dex scales with daggers only. Up to you of course. I am a min-maxer, trying to understand the world outside my own

Modifié par termokanden, 01 décembre 2010 - 03:30 .

[tonnactus]

K2QB3 wrote...
  has to invest four talent points into deft hands

Someone has to explain me this.Yes,a rogue could invest in deft hand.(or let another rogue open locks)
Where is the win for a cunning rogue that still has to invest some points in deft hands(or otherwise couldnt open locks early game) and in the crappy below the belt tree?Deadly strike,below the belt are junk talents at best,Lethality only needed with high cunning builds.Evasion isnt necessary too. 3 wasted talent points.

Modifié par tonnactus, 02 décembre 2010 - 11:58 .

[tonnactus]

termokanden wrote...
As for the assassin buffs, yes you lose a bit.

The best assasin talent is the first one,and its doesnt depend on any attribute

[termokanden]

Exploit Weakness is quite good when you have high cunning.