101 réponses à ce sujet

[Soahfreako]

Zulu_DFA wrote...

Computer_God91 wrote...

Zulu_DFA wrote...
Which is why the Shadow Broker is now a little blue Asari who has a history of working for Cerberus.

She worked for them one time to save shepard, thats hardly a history.

Then she worked for them again, when she helped their agent (you) recruit a couple of badasses who happend to be in her neighborhood.

Then she worked for them again, when she, you know, took out the Shadow Broker, with the help of their agent, of course (oh, it was you again!)...

I seem to forget the part were you had the option to ask TIM if you can be an agent. Just because you work WITH him doesn't mean you work FOR him. Very large difference.

[Cerberus Operative Ashley Williams]

Soahfreako wrote...

I seem to forget the part were you had the option to ask TIM if you can be an agent. Just because you work WITH him doesn't mean you work FOR him. Very large difference.

No, your memory is fine. You are clearly working for him and you don't have the option. He funds the project, he supplies the crew, but he has given Shepard full control over the mission. You are still working for him he just doesn't interfere.

[Computer_God91]

[quote]Zulu_DFA wrote...

Illusive Man would be dead too if he hadn't lucked out when Kai Leng saved his ass.

[/quote]

Pays to be prepared.[/quote]

He wasn't prepared, that's why he rolled out of cover to be killed by the turians. It was only because he lucked out that he survived, not being prepared.

[quote]Zulu_DFA wrote...

[quote]Computer_God91 wrote...

[quote]Zulu_DFA wrote...
Which is why the Shadow Broker is now a little blue Asari who has a history of working for Cerberus.[/quote]

She worked for them one time to save shepard, thats hardly a history.

[/quote]

Then she worked for them again, when she helped their agent (you) recruit a couple of badasses who happend to be in her neighborhood.

Then she worked for them again, when she, you know, took out the Shadow Broker, with the help of their agent, of course (oh, it was you again!)...[/quote]

See now your picking up on something, she was working for you. you happen to work with cerberus that doesn't mean she was working for cerberus. If I work for walmart and I pulling carts into the store and my friend decides to help me by pulling in a cart, that doesn't mean your friend works for walmart, they just did something that helped it out. She helps shepard, that doesn't make her a Cerberus Employee and or agent.

Modifié par Computer_God91, 25 novembre 2010 - 10:56 .

[Computer_God91]

Cerberus Operative Ashley Williams wrote...

Soahfreako wrote...

I seem to forget the part were you had the option to ask TIM if you can be an agent. Just because you work WITH him doesn't mean you work FOR him. Very large difference.

No, your memory is fine. You are clearly working for him and you don't have the option. He funds the project, he supplies the crew, but he has given Shepard full control over the mission. You are still working for him he just doesn't interfere.

However, your never considered an agent or work in a cell or assigned a cell to control, thus making you work with Cerberus not for them.

[Zulu_DFA]

Soahfreako wrote...

Zulu_DFA wrote...

Computer_God91 wrote...

Zulu_DFA wrote...
Which is why the Shadow Broker is now a little blue Asari who has a history of working for Cerberus.

She worked for them one time to save shepard, thats hardly a history.

Then she worked for them again, when she helped their agent (you) recruit a couple of badasses who happend to be in her neighborhood.

Then she worked for them again, when she, you know, took out the Shadow Broker, with the help of their agent, of course (oh, it was you again!)...

I seem to forget the part were you had the option to ask TIM if you can be an agent. Just because you work WITH him doesn't mean you work FOR him. Very large difference.

Seeing how TIM treats my Shepard, who is about as loyal as Kai Leng, I can testify that your personal attitude was never considered a factor. Maybe for you personally, it's a very large and important difference. For TIM, and the rest of the Galaxy, not nearly so. Well, you get to blow up the C-Base... That's about as much as you can screw with TIM's plans (and only so because he couldn't plan for it properly, not knowing what's behind the Omega-4 relay). Pretty much everything else you do in ME2 advances Cerberus' interests in some way.

Modifié par Zulu_DFA, 25 novembre 2010 - 11:02 .

[Soahfreako]

[quote]Computer_God91 wrote...

[quote]Zulu_DFA wrote...

Illusive Man would be dead too if he hadn't lucked out when Kai Leng saved his ass.

[/quote]

Pays to be prepared.[/quote]

He wasn't prepared, that's why he rolled out of cover to be killed by the turians. It was only because he lucked out that he survived, not being prepared.

[quote]Zulu_DFA wrote...

[quote]Computer_God91 wrote...

[quote]Zulu_DFA wrote...
Which is why the Shadow Broker is now a little blue Asari who has a history of working for Cerberus.[/quote]

She worked for them one time to save shepard, thats hardly a history.

[/quote]

Then she worked for them again, when she helped their agent (you) recruit a couple of badasses who happend to be in her neighborhood.

Then she worked for them again, when she, you know, took out the Shadow Broker, with the help of their agent, of course (oh, it was you again!)...[/quote]

See now your picking up on something, she was working for you. you happen to work with cerberus that doesn't mean she was working for cerberus. If I work for walmart and I pulling carts into the store and my friend decides to help me by pulling in a cart, that doesn't mean your friend works for walmart, they just did something that helped it out. She helps shepard, that doesn't make her a Cerberus Employee and or agent.

[/quote]
And the same thing can be applied to Shepard and his relationship with Cerberus. Shepard despises Cerberus, but he's able to look at the big picture and see that he needs Cerberus' help and Cerberus needs Shepard's help. At no point in the game do you even sign your life over to TIM. The ending proves this fact. Everyone seems to be acting like Kaidan/Ashley in this situation we find ourselves in.

[Computer_God91]

Zulu_DFA wrote...

Soahfreako wrote...

Zulu_DFA wrote...

Computer_God91 wrote...

Zulu_DFA wrote...
Which is why the Shadow Broker is now a little blue Asari who has a history of working for Cerberus.

She worked for them one time to save shepard, thats hardly a history.

Then she worked for them again, when she helped their agent (you) recruit a couple of badasses who happend to be in her neighborhood.

Then she worked for them again, when she, you know, took out the Shadow Broker, with the help of their agent, of course (oh, it was you again!)...

I seem to forget the part were you had the option to ask TIM if you can be an agent. Just because you work WITH him doesn't mean you work FOR him. Very large difference.

Seeing as how TIM treats my Shepard, who is about as loyal as Kai Leng, I can testify that your personal attitude was never considered a factor. Maybe for you personally, it's a very large and important difference. For TIM, and the rest of the Galaxy, not nearly so. Well, you get to blow up the C-Base... That's about as much as you can screw with TIM's plans (and only so because he couldn't plan for it properly, not knowing what's behind the Omega-4 relay). Pretty much everything else you do in ME2 advances Cerberus' interests in some way.

It may advance their interests but that doesn't make you a Cerberus agent. See my above post. For extra back up the council says with not for.

[Cerberus Operative Ashley Williams]

Computer_God91 wrote...

Cerberus Operative Ashley Williams wrote...

Soahfreako wrote...

I seem to forget the part were you had the option to ask TIM if you can be an agent. Just because you work WITH him doesn't mean you work FOR him. Very large difference.

No, your memory is fine. You are clearly working for him and you don't have the option. He funds the project, he supplies the crew, but he has given Shepard full control over the mission. You are still working for him he just doesn't interfere.

However, your never considered an agent or work in a cell or assigned a cell to control, thus making you work with Cerberus not for them.

You were heading up a Cerberus operation. Just because you weren't officially titled an operative and given a cell name does not diminish the capacity at which you work for them. You were not on an equal plane with TIM. He may have given you the respect of an equal, but when push comes to shove he would take charge.

[Zulu_DFA]

Soahfreako wrote...

He wasn't prepared, that's why he rolled out of cover to be killed by the turians. It was only because he lucked out that he survived, not being prepared.

Having Kai Leng around = being prepared.

[Soahfreako]

Cerberus Operative Ashley Williams wrote...

Computer_God91 wrote...

Cerberus Operative Ashley Williams wrote...

Soahfreako wrote...

I seem to forget the part were you had the option to ask TIM if you can be an agent. Just because you work WITH him doesn't mean you work FOR him. Very large difference.

No, your memory is fine. You are clearly working for him and you don't have the option. He funds the project, he supplies the crew, but he has given Shepard full control over the mission. You are still working for him he just doesn't interfere.

However, your never considered an agent or work in a cell or assigned a cell to control, thus making you work with Cerberus not for them.

You were heading up a Cerberus operation. Just because you weren't officially titled an operative and given a cell name does not diminish the capacity at which you work for them. You were not on an equal plane with TIM. He may have given you the respect of an equal, but when push comes to shove he would take charge.

Which is why he MADE you save the collector base right? Wrong. He only offered advice and intel. Nothing more. It was a mutual relationship through-out the game.

[Cerberus Operative Ashley Williams]

Soahfreako wrote...

Cerberus Operative Ashley Williams wrote...

You were heading up a Cerberus operation. Just because you weren't officially titled an operative and given a cell name does not diminish the capacity at which you work for them. You were not on an equal plane with TIM. He may have given you the respect of an equal, but when push comes to shove he would take charge.

Which is why he MADE you save the collector base right? Wrong. He only offered advice and intel. Nothing more. It was a mutual relationship through-out the game.

The only reason Shepard had the option of destroying the base is because TIM did not have a chance to make sure it would not be destroyed. Even still, TIM's prime objective was completed when Shepard destroyed the base. Shepard just refused TIM a secondary concern.

[Zulu_DFA]

Soahfreako wrote...

It was a mutual relationship through-out the game.

It is obvious it insults you to be working for Cerberus and you won't admit doing so. Doesn't change the facts though.



Shall we return to Wilson?

[Soahfreako]

Zulu_DFA wrote...

Soahfreako wrote...
It was a mutual relationship through-out the game.

It is obvious it insults you to be working for Cerberus and you won't admit doing so. Doesn't change the facts though.

Shall we return to Wilson?

Why would I be insulted to admit something that's not true? Facts that you seemingly make up in your mind don't apply in these situations.

[Zulu_DFA]

Soahfreako wrote...

Why would I be insulted to admit something that's not true?

This phrase gives you away. Just the way you wouldn't be insulted to admit something that's not true, you would be insulted to admit the truth.

Shall we return to Wilson?

[Destroy Raiden_]

He was working for the SB but then why did the SB want him dead again when he knew where to find him? I mean its not like the SB didn't have 2yrs to send in a storm team, hack the mechs, or do both and get Sheps corpse from them. They had cameras in the labs! It's not like he didn't know where the place was!



We don't truly know what the SB was getting from the collectors for the deal either or why him being dead seemed to be essential to the transaction I mean wouldn't a live Shep do better for you then a dead one? At least they could've used an Asari to get the info on the beacons if they where so inclined to want to know that.



It seems Wilson's first attempt to kill you came when you "accidentally" woke up too early it failed. He tried again when you finally woke up but why didn't he try to sabotage the endeavor in process if you being dead was a condition? I was hoping as 2 progressed his motives and reasons behind what he was doing would be slowly made clear but like your death it was there one minute then it wasn't maybe in 3 but BW may see it as such a small loop hole its not required to bring up.



I just can't see what they get thats so beneficial other then silence from a corpse to study I doubt they wanted to smoothie Shep that would be a waste and I can't see what Wilson got out of it for all his trouble beyond money I'm sure it had to be more then money why risk pissing off Miranda and TIM with no guarantee that once the job is done you'll be protected?

[Zulu_DFA]

Destroy Raiden wrote...

He was working for the SB but then why did the SB want him dead again when he knew where to find him? I mean its not like the SB didn't have 2yrs to send in a storm team, hack the mechs, or do both and get Sheps corpse from them. They had cameras in the labs! It's not like he didn't know where the place was!

If Wilson had no proper security clearence he probably didn't know the coordinates of the station, and it's not like he could use Hanzel&Grethel's method in space. He could hope to hijack a shuttle with a pilot on the way out though, while attending to Shepard (sedated) being transfered to the Minuteman station, and try to rendezvous with the Shadow Broker's agents, which would make a more sound plan than messing with the mechs and then hijacking a shuttle with a pilot.

Destroy Raiden wrote...
We don't truly know what the SB was getting from the collectors for the deal either or why him being dead seemed to be essential to the transaction I mean wouldn't a live Shep do better for you then a dead one? At least they could've used an Asari to get the info on the beacons if they where so inclined to want to know that.

LotSB only confirms the Shadow Broker's interest in Shepard's being fully functional ever since Cerberus acquired Shepard from him.

Destroy Raiden wrote...
It seems Wilson's first attempt to kill you came when you "accidentally" woke up too early it failed. He tried again when you finally woke up but why didn't he try to sabotage the endeavor in process if you being dead was a condition? I was hoping as 2 progressed his motives and reasons behind what he was doing would be slowly made clear but like your death it was there one minute then it wasn't maybe in 3 but BW may see it as such a small loop hole its not required to bring up.

Wilson couldn't have a rational interest in killing Shepard. And killing Shepard as a means of getting at stingy TIM and frigid Miranda, especially in a way hazardous to Wilson's own well-being seems too implausible when he had such a powerful, er... partner as the Shadow Broker.

Modifié par Zulu_DFA, 26 novembre 2010 - 12:47 .

[Destroy Raiden_]

After the attack the collectors wanted sheps body at any point during the 2yrs Wilson or any other agent could've done what he did 2yrs later and get the body. The collectors before him being brought back didn't care he was non functioning maybe as the process well....progressed they changed their minds but after the failure of Wilson to do his job they make very little attempt to get him.



Wilson had to be guaranteed something more the money in order to do this the cameras on the base may or may not have been planted by Wilson and just because he didn't have clearance doesn't mean he didn't know a thing or two about computers and conveniently gave him or the SB gave him clearance before hand to carry out the kill everyone but Shep plan.





SB had cameras on the Lazarus base and on the soon to be derelict reaper he had to have known where that was because of signals how did the reapers find the IFF on your ship? Through signals the SB could use the same idea to locate the base and even if he couldn't send in a team Wilson could've enacted his plan far sooner I doubt the reapers really needed a walking, talking Shep for whatever they planned they could've simply got a half done shep and put tech into him just like they did with the collectors replace all things with tech.

[nubbers666]

Zulu_DFA wrote...

Wilson wasn't trying to kill Shep. Miranda hacked the mechs to give him a live fire test. And kill Wilson.

you know that makes more sense now that i think about how her reaction was and some of the stuff along the way like there just happen to be a nade launcher were you need it or a gun in the medic bay lmao
<_

[Zulu_DFA]

@katie916



Check the previous page, there is a post of mine with red highlighting, explaining why there were only bad Cerberus workers who died that day.

[DaBigDragon]

He was working for the Shadow Broker. This is confirmed in one of the Dossiers in the Shadow Broker Base.

[Killjoy Cutter]

Phaedon wrote...

Zulu_DFA wrote...

Why would CIA need Mafia for that?

And why would the CIA want to kill Kennedy?

Surely it was just one frustrated guy with a rifle. Then another frustrated guy killed the first one. Then he got even more frustrated and fell ill and died. This is the simplest and therefore the most plausible explanation.

Whatrever.

Not that it's relevant, and I don't support conspiracy theories, but forensic evidence suggests that 2 bullets were used to kill JFK, and if I remember correctly, they were fired from different angles. The initial autopsy was a mess anyway, they had oncologists conduct it.

Not trying to argue a point, just giving some food for thought.

On another side note, no, actually, that's not what the forensic evidence shows. 

[Killjoy Cutter]

Zulu_DFA wrote...
Wilson couldn't have a rational interest in killing Shepard. And killing Shepard as a means of getting at stingy TIM and frigid Miranda, especially in a way hazardous to Wilson's own well-being seems too implausible when he had such a powerful, er... partner as the Shadow Broker.

Good thing that Wilson wasn't necessarily trying to kill Shep. 

Again, much less convoluted theory than "Minranda did it on TIM's orders":  Wilson didn't intend to kill Shep, because Shep was supposed to remain unconscious. 

[Killjoy Cutter]

Zulu_DFA wrote...

Soahfreako wrote...
It was a mutual relationship through-out the game.

It is obvious it insults you to be working for Cerberus and you won't admit doing so. Doesn't change the facts though.

Shall we return to Wilson?

With  !=  for.


(!=  is "does not equal" for those who do not know.)

[Theoristitis]

I have a feeling the waters are pretty muddy about now, and I personally am a little lost, so here are most of the facts (and a leap of faith or two):



- Shepard's body is recovered by Liara and Feron in 2183. Given to Cerberus, specifically the Lazarus Cell, which is headed by Miranda Lawson. Dr. Wilson is the Chief Medical Officer, which puts him just below Miranda. Note: as far as doctors go, it can be safely assumed that Wilson's combat abilities are closer on the spectrum to Mordin's than Chakwas' (TIM: "Wilson was one of my best agents..."). So, he is likely far from helpless.



- Shepard is just about complete in 2185. He wakes up to Miranda's voice (did she wake up him? Debatable, but quite feasible ). Facility is getting owned by mechs. Miranda guides him through, even giving encouragement, and she appears to have a VERY good sense of Shepard's surroundings (we can take this from either a story perspective or a gameplay tutorial perspective). She is cut off by static for an unknown reason. She says that there are mechs closing in on her position, then *electronic poof*.



- After Miranda gets cut out, Shepard is alone for a bit. Before meeting Jacob (who seems to have no idea what's going on, and so I won't discuss him), he sees some journal logs. Miranda talks about biosynthetic fusion, while Wilson talks about budget (incidentally, it's interesting that these are in the same room and unencrypted, no?). While we have a possible motive here to assume Wilson's betrayal ("I wish [TIM] would push some more money in my direction"), this post isn't supposed to be concerned with motives. Also, it could just be a resigned gripe.



- A Cerberus dude gets a rocket to the back, and we find Wilson's next log entry. From the venom in his voice, it's pretty clear he and Miranda aren't too close, despite working in rather close quarters for two years. Wilson comments that "maybe Miranda is afraid Shepard will become the new favorite". Take that as you will.



- "Had to be an inside job." And someone with top level security. Normally, I wouldn't just take someone's word for this, but Jacob is the head of security AND he's about as honest as they come, despite having the Garrus Syndrome (red tape and all that), so we can safely assume he's right. This means we've got...TIM, Miranda, Wilson. Of these, Miranda and Wilson have direct access, though it's possible TIM has an override somewhere.



- Wilson. "Shepard's alive? How the hell--never mind." An interesting choice of words. While he could be referring to Shepard's consciousness, there is the slight issue that, as Jacob comments, he sends them right into an enemy squad. After they win, the mechs find Wilson, and he gets shot. The fuel stains on the floor leading to Wilson suggest there were in fact mechs in this area at some point. There are also three Cerberus bodies on the floor by the log. Miranda, in log, says that Lazarus is a failure if Shepard is not the same...and she will NOT fail.



- Chief Med Officer Wilson himself is in Server Room B. Lots of bodies in here. Wilson is sheltered behind some crates, wounded. There are no dead mechs, which does not mean that they weren't there, but it does beg the question of how Wilson's alive. Possible that they shot him and thought him dead, but we should ask why he was making so much noise (comm chatter) if he needed to hide. His responses are snippy and rather defensive (even preemptively defensive), but he could just naturally be an angry person and he's wounded. For the record, I didn't read Miranda's responses after killing Wilson as exactly airtight, either.



- Miranda and Wilson. They're enemies. They want each other dead. I won't cite more evidence because there's enough of it. Miranda's expression on seeing Wilson says it all.



- LotSB, Yahg Dossier on Wilson. It's clear that Wilson was connected to SB. Whether that means full agent or just a one-time bribe or in between is unclear. It also does not mean that the SB was necessarily related to the attack, only that the SB wants more agents on Minuteman (and may still have some).



Feel free to add if I missed something, or correct me if I strayed from facts. Now, where were we?

[Kenshen]

Even though pretty much all the evidence points to Wilson being the guilty one I have never had a good feeling about Miranda and her part in it all. Why wasn't Shepard still drugged and guess who it is that wakes you via the com. If I had spent the last two years of my life on a project like that and I wanted to try and save the test subject who has been knocked out all this time I wouldn't waste time with the com unless I knew that would work. And you end up meeting her on the other side of the shuttle bay doors. Shouldn't there already be a pile of dead mechs on the way to that door if she just got there?



Yeah Wilson was on the SB's payroll and his days where numbered once it was clear that Shepard was ready to regain conscience. Any and all data on how it was done should have already been in TIM's hands so there was no need to keep Wilson around. Cerberus has never shown to care about collateral damage so killing off the station wouldn't matter if it gave Shep a little practice at what he/she does best. Overall I don't know who was the one but I can see how cases for each side can be made.