190 réponses à ce sujet

[AntiChri5]

Had the council not intervened, we would have been crushed.

[General User]

Very true, but, had it gone on, which side would they intervene on?

Modifié par General User, 26 novembre 2010 - 01:00 .

[Asheer_Khan]

I am pretty sure that Alliance would use nuclear weapons on much larger scale than just nuke spy satellites and that would unite rest of the Council species against Alliance so possibly Turians would recived green light to repeat "Krogan scenario" returning humanity on Earth back to stone age after extensive orbital bombardament.

[turian councilor Knockout]

Turians would have won at that point but if it happened after the events of ME 2 humanity would have won (the Turians would not risk to have Shepard after them).

If Shepard can destroy collectors he can destroy Turians.

Modifié par turian councilor Knockout, 26 novembre 2010 - 01:41 .

[Flamewielder]

Private Zaeed Massani was dropped on Shanxi with the relief force. Immediate Turian surrender shortly followed...

[lovgreno]

If the Asari had not stopped it the humans would now be a small part of the turian empire. So there the humans had a lot of luck.

[cos1ne]

First off this is my whole take on the first contact war.

Humanity could never hope to win a war against the Turians, but the Turians could never hope to defeat the humans. Because humans combine the best attributes of all the races. We are ruthless like the krogan, scientific as the salarians, diplomatic as the asari and disciplined as the turians.

Oh and don't forget as fertile as the vorcha, humanity would just rock it Battlestar Galactica style, being sort of like the quarian flotilla but instead of scavenging we'd be hunting. We would also "illegally" seed colonies all over the galaxy since we'd just activate relays randomly and plot down on a garden world. Humanity's best attribute is that we are as difficult to get rid of as cochroaches.

Basically all it comes down to is the First Contact War is analogous to the Vietnam War, with the US being represented by the council, the US Military being the Turians and the Vietcong being humanity. The only way to defeat humanity would be genocide and even if the council would have allowed it, which I doubt they would have the stomach for, especially the salarian population, it would be an extremely difficult thing to complete for my main reason listed above. In the right conditions humans can realistically double their population 15 years. This would lead to not just a quick "blow up earth, go home" scenario, but a "spend hundreds of years hunting down a species who has no concept of "honor" the Council would recognize.

Also humans also had the advantage of misinformation during the First Contact War, which is why the Council stepped in to stop in when they did. All other species discovered by the Council were contacted by the Council. Krogan were "uplifted" by the Salarians. The Asari recently made contact with the raloi after they sent out their version of Sputnik. So humans running into them would be akin to a european walking through the jungles of the amazon and finding an unknown and uncontacted civilization using nuclear power plants. It was something so unexpected that they decided to try and see if we were open to peace before they committed to a war. For humanity's credit they understood just what a boon this peace would be to the species.

[General User]

I’m thinking about whether the galaxy would side with humanity or the turians had the war continued. As I see it, the turians would have found few friends. Indeed many of the most powerful races in the galaxy are quite likely to side with humanity, had the turians suddenly turned belligerent.



The salarians would be far more likely to side with humanity against the turians because, over the past 1000+ years, the over arching theme of salarian foreign policy has been to indirectly control outside militaries. First came the Rachni Wars, an invasion by an alien power that was only thwarted by the salarians uplifting the krogan. When the krogan proved to be beyond the ability of the Council to control them, it was the salarians who engineered the genophage to bring them back in line, that time using the turians as their cats-paws.



At the time of the FCW the turians are the military arm of the Council. But if they get out of line and start doing things like launching unprovoked genocidal assaults on weaker species, and (much more importantly) disregarding or rejecting the attempts of their fellow Council members to reign them in, the all history tells us the salarians will see the turians as a threat and will begin making plans to deal with them accordingly.



The asari would be more likely to side with humanity against the turians because, in addition to the same institutional fear of powerful, uncontrolled militaries as the salarians, the asari DID side with humanity against the turians, at least diplomaticaly. It was asari intervention that, not only ended the FCW, but did so heavily in humanity’s favor, brokering a treaty in which the turians were forced to pay reparations.



The krogan are likely to side with humanity against the turians because, well, krogan hate turians. The fact that so many krogan serve as mercenaries also gives the krogan clans a readymade layer of deniability for supplying troops to the humans.



The batarians are most likely to be neutral in humanity’s favor, if only because the conflict would benefit them. At the time there was no particular animosity between humans and batarians, and having a good bit of the Turian Fleet tied down with some neophyte race in the back of beyond would be good for the oh, so culturally important slave trade.



The hanar and elcor, are likely to remain as neutral as possible, though both races would have a tendency to look unfavorably upon the turian actions for cultural reasons. The hanar are by-and-large a peaceful race, and are generally opposed to aggressive, deliberate, large-scale war such as the turians initiated. The elcor are a very conservative and deliberate people, the fact that the turians simply attacked humanity without even attempting to communicate would strike many elcor as anathema.



The quarians are most likely to be genuinely neutral. The nature of the Migrant Fleet would mean they genuinely wouldn’t have a dog in this fight. Though their assistance could be invaluable, especially to humanity, the risk to them would just be too great.



The volus would be stuck following their turian masters to war. Though the fact that the Hierarchy’s decision to go to war despite the Council’s wishes, thus straining or even breaking outright important economic ties with the other Citadel races, will generate no small amount of resentment.



Finally, the turians could possibly side with humanity against the Hierarchy, if the war goes on long enough. The CDN stories have shown us that turian colonies are rather independent units, some even violently at odds with the central government. If the Hierarchy starts pulling forces to fight the humans, the idea that turian worlds would rise in revolt is a far from distant possibility.



Anyway, that’s how I’ve come to see the various species breaking down.

[Arijharn]

Why would the other species suddenly decide to cross the floor and join Humanity? This is, I believe, just plain wishful thinking. Humanity is a brand new alien species that just happened to put a swift boot up the ass of their galactic 'peacekeepers.' If anything, that would probably put more emphasis on them to back the Turian's than us because the Turian's are comfortable to them, they know the Turian's whereas we are just one great giant blob of unknown... and people generally fear the unknown.

[Dean_the_Young]

While that scenario in particular is extreme, the principal behind it is not.



Who, for example, benefits when a third of the Council can trigger an uprovoked galactic war? Even with an eventual Turian victory, at what economic and political costs? It's far more than 'just' a matter of humanity, though it's very plausible the Alliance, before it's defeat, could find and attack a Citadel world in retaliation. The Terminus Systems are a hornet's nest at the best of times, and the Turians actions would only incite them more during the duration.



We here in whispers and rumors in ME1 that the older two thirds of the Council already were concerned with the Turians, enough so that they put Humanity on the fast track to be a power balance to the Heirarchy. And that was in a better world: here, the Turians are appearing more like the Krogan and Rachni as a threat to galactic stability via war mongering. That's a lot of support draining from the Turians from their principal allies, and a lot of motivations for others to, well, not make things easy for him.



This isn't to argue that, say, the Salarians will send their dreadnaughts to block the Turians. But it could well mean that after a maze of back doors and secret communications, no Salarian STG will ever make any sort of trade or information deal with the Systems Alliance own black ops, information that never exists and would certainly not put pressure on the Hierarchy to withdraw and drop it's costly war for the greater good of all Council space.





There are many, many levels of action between joining the Turians or joining the humans.

[Aurica]

As much as I thought it be cool to see a human dominated council....

No freaking way could we ever won the turians during the first contact war.  We were just barely moving out from the local cluster.  Turians been around for ages and if anything had a much larger fleet and logistical support than we do.

[Arijharn]

I was under the (mistaken?) impression that the other council races trusted the Turian's. While the Turian's are 'war mongering' they weren't doing anything more hostile in comparison to the other species. They weren't for example, sabre rattling the Terminus Systems (or if they were; they were doing so with the Council's knowledge of them doing so).



The thing is; at the time neither side had any inclination of the true military strength of each other. The Turian's were worried because we essentially lulled them into complacency and the humans were worried because, well, we were fighting aliens (were they the Protheans?).



But I agree with the last paragraph of yours Dean (and that sentence).

[Dean_the_Young]

Arijharn wrote...

I was under the (mistaken?) impression that the other council races trusted the Turian's. While the Turian's are 'war mongering' they weren't doing anything more hostile in comparison to the other species. They weren't for example, sabre rattling the Terminus Systems (or if they were; they were doing so with the Council's knowledge of them doing so).

Trust comes in many levels. Must of it can also be lost is a matter of years. Even though the rest of the Council 'trusts' the Turians, they were still raising humanity as a counterweight. In this case, when the Turians provoked a war that could easily see the target species blindly retaliating and hitting, say, another Council world? When the regular warfare, and total mobilization of the Heirarchy for the first time in centuries, could send the Terminus into a frenzy? If the Turian political relations with the rest of the Council becomes increasingly dominated by the War in the Traverse?

It could easily be far worse than the US/European tensions that followed the leadup into Iraq War 2.

The thing is; at the time neither side had any inclination of the true military strength of each other. The Turian's were worried because we essentially lulled them into complacency and the humans were worried because, well, we were fighting aliens (were they the Protheans?).

But I agree with the last paragraph of yours Dean (and that sentence).

But still no comment on that Geth/Sovereign idea I mentioned earlier, eh?

What? Fishing for comments? Never...

[In Exile]

Soahfreako wrote...
Halo is the WORST example to use here. Humans lose every planet they ever inhabited, with the sole exception of earth, and even then that could almost be considered lost. Also I'm tired of people bringing in HUMAN history into this. Humans vs humans is one thing. Humans vs aliens is completely different. You DON'T know how they think, You DON'T know their tendencies. I grow weary of arguing the same point over and over again.

Actually, we do. Aliens in ME2 are just different looking people. Homogenous people at that, since we've seen no indication that asari or turian culture is anything more than that.

[General User]

Arijharn wrote...

Why would the other species suddenly decide to cross the floor and join Humanity? This is, I believe, just plain wishful thinking. Humanity is a brand new alien species that just happened to put a swift boot up the ass of their galactic 'peacekeepers.' If anything, that would probably put more emphasis on them to back the Turian's than us because the Turian's are comfortable to them, they know the Turian's whereas we are just one great giant blob of unknown... and people generally fear the unknown.

The idea of “better the devil you know…” more or less. The problem with that, certainly the asari at least, didn’t see humanity as anything diabolical. I agree with Dean, after 2nd Shanxi, the asari and the salarians could easily be looking at humanity as a potential military counterweight to the turians.
 
It’s not a matter of trust so much as one of interest. The asari and salarians have an interest in maintaining the status quo. Overwhelming military powers, be they rachni, krogan, turian or human, threaten that status quo. The turians have an interest in maintaining their own military supremacy, after all, their position in the galaxy is based on it. Since the Krogan Rebellions, those two interests have, put diplomatically, existed in balance. But with the arrival of humanity on the scene, that balance is disrupted.
 
I think the Council would have tried many different ways of brokering a peace between humanity and the turians. Option 1 was to have the asari try diplomacy. Fortunately for everyone, that worked. It’s not a huge step to go from asari in the parlor to salarians in the backrooms. 
 
The Council races would most likely steadily escalate pressure on the turians to negotiate until they did. How far that escalation would go depends on such things as the turian reaction, and the progress of the war. 
 
On Sovereign, if the he were to help the humans at this time, he would have to do it behind the scenes, does him no good to reveal himself to the rest of the galaxy. To be ironic in the extreme, “the man who would otherwise have become illusive” would be the ideal conduit for Reaper assistance. He’s dedicated to human survival and clearly plugged into the human industrial, military, and political establishments.
 
-BTW- What was the deal with the turians at relay 314 and Shanxi anyway? It looks to me like one of their patrol commanders, made a panicked and/or pigheaded move, and instead of hanging him out to dry, the Hierarchy decided to back him to the hilt. Was he somebody’s cousin or something?

[Dean_the_Young]

I've never heard any implication of such, but I've always wanted to meet the Turian equivalent to Ashley Williams. 'My Grandfather did his duty in upholding the law in proud Turian tradition, and our family has been forever blacklisted as a result. We still serve our race with honor, etc. etc. etc., do you want the option of boning a female Turian?'

[oldag07]

At best, the first contact war would have turned into Vietnam for the Turians.  At worse they would have eradicated the human population.  We were lucky that the council saved us.

I find it hard to believe humanity could have built so many colonies, and built such an effective military, and yet not have run into the council.  I find it even stranger that humanity has only known of the council for 30 years, and yet we are so prevalent in the galaxy.  I know it is just a game. . .

Modifié par oldag07, 27 novembre 2010 - 06:12 .

[RiouHotaru]

Answer to the OP?



Nope.avi

[Nashiktal]

Space is very big oldag07. So big in fact, I actually find it surprising the Turians found humanity. I can agree with how strange it is that earth has so many colonies, but I bet most are undeveloped, and the ones that are use technology shared by the council.

[Arijharn]

Dean_the_Young wrote...
Trust comes in many levels. Must of it can also be lost is a matter of years. Even though the rest of the Council 'trusts' the Turians, they were still raising humanity as a counterweight.

Aren't you sort of arguing this point out of order? They may very well be seeking to raise humanity now as a counterpoint to the Turian Hierarchy, but weren't we discussing whether humanity had any chance at the time of the First Contact War as it happened? 

The only unification that would happen is the nations getting fully behind the Systems Alliance, but maybe that too is just blind idealism on my part.

In this case, when the Turians provoked a war that could easily see the target species blindly retaliating and hitting, say, another Council world? When the regular warfare, and total mobilization of the Heirarchy for the first time in centuries, could send the Terminus into a frenzy? If the Turian political relations with the rest of the Council becomes increasingly dominated by the War in the Traverse?

The Terminus Systems would go on a heightened state of alert absolutely, but the only frenzy they'd go into is if their territories get invaded. The Terminus Systems may push the boundaries a bit, but I think they'd be more willing to see how the winds blow in case the Turian Hierarchy fully mobilized. Besides; as Omega shows, even there gets up to date news information, so it seems to me that they'd be able to tell as easily as anyone else that the Turian's aren't necessarily pointing their guns at them, but at an emerging threat somewhere else.

If Humanity did hit a Council race world, I fail to see how that would make those council races more predisposed to forming an alliance with this new race at the expense of the Turian's for the simple fact that, as I mentioned before, Humanity is brand new (and in our hypothetical, have hit other worlds making it not just a Turian concern but a concern for all species) and if there's one thing that the Council has proven, they look out for themselves first, and at that moment; the Turian's are one of their own.

But still no comment on that Geth/Sovereign idea I mentioned earlier, eh?

What? Fishing for comments? Never...

I didn't see any comments about it (I admit, I was somewhat skimming), but at that point in time how on Earth are they even relevant to... well, anything?

Geth are cloistered off in the Perseus Veil and Sovereign was probably hibernating. Sovereign was never interested in any particular race short of blowing us all up either. If Sovereign was awake, he was likely talkign to the Geth and saying: "HEY GUYZ, LIKE YOU I'M INORGANIC.... YOU KNOW, I CAN GIVE YOU YOUR FUTURE IF YOU WANT... ONLY IF YOU REALLY WANT IT THOUGH."

[lovgreno]

I guess the moral of the story is: It is wise to be friendly to the turians as you realy want them to point their guns at your enemies instead of at you.

Of course the humans didn't know anything about turians and vice versa when they first met so it's not that strange that it lead to a brief exchange of, in retrospective unnecesary, violence. Different cultures meeting some times leads to violence, it happens even among humans.

I guess the galaxy is very lucky to have the asari skill in diplomacy. Better keep them and their powerfull allies in the council I say.

[General User]

If humanity’s strategy in the war was to blindly attack every single alien we encountered then the Council races probably would support the turians, as humanity would be no better than the turians are and a lot easier to get rid of.



But the war could only have continued if the turians rejected the asari diplomatic intervention. So humanity would be continuing the war with full knowledge that not only do aliens besides the turians exist, but that those aliens are generally sympathetic to the human cause.



In other words, because the First Contact War started with the turians launching a brutal, unprovoked, completely senseless, attack on a species that had never done them (or anyone else) any wrong, galactic sympathy was humanity’s to lose.

[devilsgrin]

CARL_DF90 wrote...

Some people seem to be forgetting a few things. The first would be the fact that humans were the first species after the krogan that were able to achieve a military victory against the turians when reinforcements arrived to liberate the colony taken by the turians. They were surprised by humans unorthodox approaches to military tactics, adaptability, and novel technologies to reinforce military units. Turians on the other hand, despite their discipline, numbers, and years ahead in space, are not very adaptable, and tend to NOT think outside the box until its too late. In a lot of ways, tradition comes before practicality to them. It usually takes a giant boot to the head before turians change their ways. Look at what happened with Saren and Sovereign. So, to answer the heading, would humanity have won the First Contact War? Probably not have won. It would have seen it as a long and protracted conflict ending in stalemate.

Turians don't need to think outside the box often. Their traditional tactics, strategy and methods are proven successful. As evidenced in that  it was a tiny Turian force, a PATROL (lets estimate maybe 5 ships, up to 10 at most)... nothing more... that took Shianxi. But to get the turians out... the SA required the ENTIRE 2nd Fleet. Its not as though the Turians wouldn't ever have come of worse in random skirmishes against... say... batarian slavers, but their overall strategy would see them come back with the forces to exact both revenge and victory.
The fact that the Turians call the "First Contact War" the "Relay 314 Incident" tells you how much of a victory humanity achieved. Almost nothing was gained by the Systems Alliance, save only Shianxi's liberation. Yet it took MASSIVE efforts on the Alliance's part to do it.
Lets say it so people who seem to forget things can understand. The Turians lost a PATROL. The Systems Alliance lost a Colony. To get it back from that Turian Patrol, they needed an entire FLEET!

Its safe to say Humanity would have lost bigtime if the Turian mobilisation had been completed. Lets not also forget how incredibly small the total number of ships (not counting fighter craft i assume) humanity had to throw into battle. barely 200 if the figures we've been given are accurate. Against the almost endless fleets of the Turian Heirarchy...

[devilsgrin]

General User wrote...

If humanity’s strategy in the war was to blindly attack every single alien we encountered then the Council races probably would support the turians, as humanity would be no better than the turians are and a lot easier to get rid of.

But the war could only have continued if the turians rejected the asari diplomatic intervention. So humanity would be continuing the war with full knowledge that not only do aliens besides the turians exist, but that those aliens are generally sympathetic to the human cause.

In other words, because the First Contact War started with the turians launching a brutal, unprovoked, completely senseless, attack on a species that had never done them (or anyone else) any wrong, galactic sympathy was humanity’s to lose.

i don't think that the efforts of the Asari and Salarians show any type of sympathy toward humanity, and certainly not over their Turian allies. At best its an altruistic attempt at welcoming the newcomer, and keeping them from being annihilated out-of-hand. At worst it was both races delaying the Turians long enough to determine what humanity could offer to their own species specifically, and then generally to the Council and the Galaxy at large.

The attack was unlikely "brutal". Relentless sure, Overwhelming certainly. Brutally effective definitely. But Brutal? I think not.
Unprovoked... theres a case here of "ignorance of the law is no defence against the Law." The Humans were in the process of opening a dormant Mass Relay... something expressly forbidden by Council law. As communication would have taken too long to prevent the Relay being opened/activated, the Turian patrol needed to act. they did. They acted in accordance with galactic Council law, and within their mandate.
By all accounts, the occupation of Shianxi wasn't particularly harsh. As few turians actually landed, utilising drones as is their preference. (considering the potential biological hazards they might face in a human colony it was a good idea).

[General User]

In this case the “ignorance of the law” type explanation does work. 

First and foremost because the Citadel Conventions and Edicts aren’t laws, they’re conventions and edicts, until and unless the Systems Alliance signs on, they are not bound to accept them.

Second, and nearly as significant, ignorance IS an excuse. The Systems Alliance can no more be held to account of violating Citadel Council rules, than the turians could for violating the Geneva Conventions.

How long does it take to fire a warning shot? Or to arrest human explorers?  Or even to show oneself, surely the presence of aliens alone would eb enough of a shock that the humans would have stopped their work for oh, a minute or two.  Follow that up with a diplomatic envoy. Goodness, even the yahg got an envoy!

The turians actions during first contact were brutal, execessive, lazy,and worst of all stupid. They found ants at a picnic and reached for a sledgehammer.

Modifié par General User, 27 novembre 2010 - 02:04 .