148 réponses à ce sujet

[Giggles_Manically]

Dead in all but one file.

Where she then got carried off and riped into confetti by the seeker swarms.



Jacob does indeed do something helpful for once!

[aDuck]

Dean_the_Young wrote...

mrsph wrote...

Morinth's own profile for the Suicide Mission says she views people as toys.

And?

So Dean, your saying that viewing sexual targets in order to overpower them and kill them, just for fun, isnt a bad thing?  Interesting...

[NPH11]

I can understand her line of thinking when it comes to not wanting to live a life of forced seclusion. No matter how luxurious it may be, having minimal contact with the rest of society would be a pretty terrible thing to go through, especially when the only other option is death. Her actions, however, I just can't condone. She reminds me of General Zaroff from, "The Most Dangerous Game." She gains satisfaction from not only the act of killing, but the thrill of the hunt itself. It is easy for some to see her in a more sympathetic light as she is suffering from an addiction, but she is clearly making no attempt to resist it. This isn't a character that is attempting to control her actions. She actively targets specific people.

I agree that she got the bad lot, but her addiction should not be used as an excuse for mass murder. She's enjoying what she's doing and treats other people like toys to be played with and discarded. If she were a character that was clearly suffering from an addiction and seemed to make attempts to turn back, then I would see her as sympathetic, but I just can't. Nothing about the way she acts indicates to me that she doesn't enjoy being an Ardat-Yakshi.

If there had been a third option to her quest to end it without bloodshed, I probably would have taken it. She isn't a completely unsympathetic character, but some people do seem to give her much more sympathy than she deserves. Nevertheless, when it comes down between choosing between Morinth, a mass murderer who is addicted to killing, yet doesn't attempt to fight it and Samara, the long arm of justice, albeit a very archaic and harsh version of it, I choose Samara.

Modifié par NPH11, 25 novembre 2010 - 02:32 .

[mundus66]

She is evil, the only reason she helps Shepard is because the reaper threat is a threat to the entire galaxy. So she can't just stand around and do nothing, besides if she would refuse she would most likely end up dead or caught as Shepard knows her true identity. Her true motive is obviously to seduce Shepard though. But she helps him first as again, the threat of the galaxy is to great.

[oldag07]

Looking for the correct one to quote.

dgcatanisiri wrote...

Morinth is out for the hunt, the thrill of the chase, to enjoy herself as she pleases. The life of comfort and luxury does nothing for a hunter like herself. If she can't chase her pleasure, she gets none from it. And she knows that sleeping with her victims will kill them. She doesn't care, so long as she gets the joy and the high from the act. She had a choice when she learned she was an ardat-yakshi. She could stay in seclusion, be cared for and live, or go out and search for her pleasures and be chased down by justicars like Samara. She chose the hunt over all else.
No, Morinth is one of THE clearest cut villains in the game. If she really cared about her victims, she would have gone into seclusion in the first place.

One could argue that humanity (as we are today) as a species is quite similar to Morinth.  We take the planet's resources at breath taking speeds, even though we know that the environment is in trouble.  We could live a secluded and relatively boring existence, and alleviate these problems.  And yet we, (both sides of the political spectrum) choose to live our lives in a resource intensive way.  Me included. . . . 

Just being a devils advocate. . . .

Modifié par oldag07, 25 novembre 2010 - 02:53 .

[massive_effect]

She's an Asari vampire. Vampires are bad.

[EffectedByTheMasses]

I don't think that she's necessarily evil per se, in the sense that she is a sadist or a character corrupted by flaws. I just see her as more animal than sentient being, and enjoying the thrill of the hunt. It's like some of our greatest leaders/poets/inventors/philosophers/etc have been alcoholics and womanizers who enjoy having sex with lots of people with no regard to the consequences.

[Dean_the_Young]

aDuck wrote...

Dean_the_Young wrote...

mrsph wrote...

Morinth's own profile for the Suicide Mission says she views people as toys.

And?

So Dean, your saying that viewing sexual targets in order to overpower them and kill them, just for fun, isnt a bad thing?  Interesting...

As I said a grand total of three letters in that post...

No. I am not.


I do, however, have a general principal against people using poor arguments and innaccurate accusations against their foes, even if their foes are horrible. Especially when their targets are horrible: flimsy but erroneus accusations against the condemned are a blight on reason and against the laziness of the one throwing them about.

For example, Morinth doesn't 'overpower' people in anything but sheer force of personality... which can push a pencil about as far as a glare. Morinth is not a rapist, and quite arguably has every one of her victims already at a point of being willing to die for her before she kills them. Morinth's domination, combat mechanic with no basis in story or lore aside, is basically a Persuasion check used for nefarious purposes. The power of words and personality is strong, but not strong enough to overcome you if you say no.


In this case, I said 'and' simply because looking at people completely in terms of how they affect you does not make one a bad person. It doesn't make one a good person either, but good and evil aren't binary in practice. Morinth looking at people from a selfcentered perspective doesn't make her a bad person: infact, there's an entire parallel morality in ammorality, in which even the ammoral keep to certain moral standards for completely selfish reasonings.

No, what makes Morinth a bad person is that she embraced her curse and does nothing to mitigate the harm it can do to others, whether those victims be innocent souls or not.

Modifié par Dean_the_Young, 25 novembre 2010 - 03:49 .

[Dean_the_Young]

massive_effect wrote...

She's an Asari vampire. Vampires are bad.

One could even say that vampires suck.

[Dean_the_Young]

-Skorpious- wrote...

Ok fine, my last post wasn't the most appropriate or fitting of posts, but Morinth is still a bad person. She doesn't "kill out of instinct" - she specifically targets artistic individuals over the common human, turian, or whatever species you prefer. At this point, she stops being someone who kills out of "addiction", but rather someone who receives personal satisfaction from pursuing/convincing her victims to sleep with her.

Yes, she embraces it. The way she does is bad (depending on who she does it to depending on your view: plenty of people on this forum live by the motto 'thou shalt not suffer a merc to live', and see no problem with vigilantism bordering on murder in those categories, so they probably don't care when Morinth's interests take her to the darker side of civilization). This has never been in dispute, though just what she does is endlessly confused by some people.

(I'm looking at you, mass murderers/rapists/brain washing/etc. accusers.)

In short, if she only killed to quench her biological instincts then she wouldn't spend so much effort to meld with one individual over easier, weaker prey.

Now while that's literally true, the context beside it isn't as clear at all. We can find countless examples of times and occassions where people do far more than the minimal required, even to the point in which they take pride in what otherwise would be tidum, or worse. Slaves who take as much or more pride in their own subsurvient heirarchy as the freemen who own them, prisoners who compete at being the most produtive workers despite no real reward.

Part of any condition we live with is our response to it, and that brings in many more things than 'just' biologial insticts. Simply because you live with something forced upon you one way or another doesn't mean you weren't forced to live with it at all.

If she can't do this she should contact the proper authorities and explain her situation. It may mean her inprisonment, but at least she can live a life without harming others. But alas, Morinth is to strong-willed and intelligent to ever think of turning herself in.

She can think of it. She just doesn't care. The proper authorities are the one who not only wanted her entombed alive in the first place, but actually did so as well before the broke out.

Everyone has a point at whih they'll say '**** them' to the greater good. For their families, for their loved ones, for fourty silvers to be a spy. And some people say '**** the greater good' after the greater good fuked them first. Like trying to lok you away for the rest of your life for something you had no say in or knowledge of. After the greater good doesn't care about you and tries its best to stomp you, a lot of people find it much harder to care about it.

Modifié par Dean_the_Young, 25 novembre 2010 - 04:08 .

[aDuck]

Dean_the_Young wrote...

aDuck wrote...

Dean_the_Young wrote...

mrsph wrote...

Morinth's own profile for the Suicide Mission says she views people as toys.

And?

So Dean, your saying that viewing sexual targets in order to overpower them and kill them, just for fun, isnt a bad thing?  Interesting...

As I said a grand total of three letters in that post...

No. I am not.


I do, however, have a general principal against people using poor arguments and innaccurate accusations against their foes, even if their foes are horrible. Especially when their targets are horrible: flimsy but erroneus accusations against the condemned are a blight on reason and against the laziness of the one throwing them about.

For example, Morinth doesn't 'overpower' people in anything but sheer force of personality... which can push a pencil about as far as a glare. Morinth is not a rapist, and quite arguably has every one of her victims already at a point of being willing to die for her before she kills them. Morinth's domination, combat mechanic with no basis in story or lore aside, is basically a Persuasion check used for nefarious purposes. The power of words and personality is strong, but not strong enough to overcome you if you say no.


In this case, I said 'and' simply because looking at people completely in terms of how they affect you does not make one a bad person. It doesn't make one a good person either, but good and evil aren't binary in practice. Morinth looking at people from a selfcentered perspective doesn't make her a bad person: infact, there's an entire parallel morality in ammorality, in which even the ammoral keep to certain moral standards for completely selfish reasonings.

No, what makes Morinth a bad person is that she embraced her curse and does nothing to mitigate the harm it can do to others, whether those victims be innocent souls or not.

Sorry, poor choice of words.  Meant overpower their nervous system.

Only looking at how someone affects you doesnt make you a bad person per say, but its the actions you do is what defines you.  I could say I party all night, and care about the enviroment, but if I kill some puppies for fun, what kind of person would you see me as?  Ultimately, you will (and should) be judged on how you act, not nessesarily what you think.

And sorry, I thought the 3 letter response was more along the lines of dismissing his... uh, claim.

[GracefulChicken]

Evil or not, Morinth is the most corny cliche of a hipster. And that alone is reason enough to kill her.

[Xilizhra]

But... she also kills other hipsters. Doesn't that lead to a net benefit?



I will say this, though, Dean; I'm not sure how to interpret Morinth going into mind-meld mode and saying "Look into my eyes and tell me you want me. Tell me you'd kill for me. Anything I want." other than psychic domination.

[Dean_the_Young]

Xilizhra wrote...

But... she also kills other hipsters. Doesn't that lead to a net benefit?

I will say this, though, Dean; I'm not sure how to interpret Morinth going into mind-meld mode and saying "Look into my eyes and tell me you want me. Tell me you'd kill for me. Anything I want." other than psychic domination.

What basis of calling it psychic domination is there? Even Samara calls it force of personality.

If there's any analogy for it, it's the same persuasion check/strength of will that lets Shepard 'psychically dominate' everyone else, including his own team.

[Xilizhra]

My basis is that she's clearly melding or attempting to with Shepard here, even if she's not using biotics to accomplish it.

[Killjoy Cutter]

Of course she's attempting to meld, look at her eyes, listen to what she's saying.



Listen to what her latest victim's mother says about the effect she had on the victim; listen to the victim in the diary.



Morinth dominates people through a warped version of linking nervous systems.

[Teknor]

Morinth is evil. All she wants is bed Shep.

Modifié par Teknor, 25 novembre 2010 - 03:56 .

[Cerberus Operative Ashley Williams]

I wish people would stop trying to attribute pure good and pure evil to ME characters. Morinth is a tragic character and in my opinion both sympathetic and unsympathetic. She is obviously a slave to her addiction. No, this doesn't justify her actions.

[Dean_the_Young]

Xilizhra wrote...

My basis is that she's clearly melding or attempting to with Shepard here, even if she's not using biotics to accomplish it.

And how is that mental domination against the other person's will?

[Dean_the_Young]

Killjoy Cutter wrote...

Of course she's attempting to meld, look at her eyes, listen to what she's saying.

Listen to what her latest victim's mother says about the effect she had on the victim; listen to the victim in the diary.

Morinth dominates people through a warped version of linking nervous systems.

Uh, no. That's not what happens as well.

When Morinth links neverous systems by melding, it kills. Kind of the defining point of the AY. Her persuasive abilities are separate, and by Samara's remarks entirely mundane.

[Tyrannosaurus Rex]

Her ability Dominate is described as "brainwashing organic targets",
something she is clearly trying to do with Shepard during the loyalty
mission.

[Mike2640]

Morinth is clearly a psychopath (Like the real definition of not being able to feel empathy, not the Hollywood definition they used in Jacks' ads) and definitely a serial killer. I don't know how anyone could possibly think of her as "good". She could have chosen not to kill, but she didn't.

Yes, her only other option was monastery life or death, but that only means she had a crappy choice. It was always her decision and she chose to be a murderess.

All the characters in Mass Effect are, for the most part, gray, but Morinth's gray is way closer to black than the others. Don't expect me to feel sorry for her just because her other option was a lot more boring than "Vampire Sex ****".

Modifié par Mike2640, 25 novembre 2010 - 04:45 .

[Bourne Endeavor]

Copy/pasted from TVTropes, "Complete Monster" section. Yes, even TVTropes is not buying the victim act.

"Morinth. As an ardat-yakshi, she has a genetic defect that kills anyone she has sex with. This also makes the act of sex addicting to her, so she set off across the galaxy in a sexual killing spree. She seduces her prey with her wiles and psychic powers, getting close and intimate with them until they're more or less brainwashed, then she kills them in the act. She doesn't regret her actions, and actually relishes in them. When confronted, she actually has the gall to pull the victim card! (Which is only technically true. She had no choice in becoming an ardat-yakshi, but she did have the choice in succumbing to her addiction.)

• Samara, Morinth's mother, who has made it her life's goal to kill Morinth, has spent several hundred years trying to find her. She tells Shepard of a time when she managed to track her to a small village on a remote planet. Morinth had brainwashed the entire village into worshipping her as a goddess. And when Samara tried to confront Morinth, they all (except for the youngest children) attacked her. And because Samara is a Knight Templar whose Code states that she must kill anyone who attacks her... Morinth forced her mother to wipe out an entire village. Somehow that is worse than if she just killed them herself.
• Also, you can kill Samara and recruit Morinth into your party instead. And you can have sex with her, knowing of her condition. The cutscene basically goes through a bunch of "are you sure?" responses (with one of the lines you can say to Morinth being "No thanks, I want to live."). When you finally do the deed...guess what happens. Just guess."

Modifié par Bourne Endeavor, 25 novembre 2010 - 04:47 .

[Dean_the_Young]

Lizardviking wrote...

Her ability Dominate is described as "brainwashing organic targets",
something she is clearly trying to do with Shepard during the loyalty
mission.

Dominate is a gameplay mechanic which has no other basis in the lore or context of the game. In the lore, Samara describes it on completely natural/mundane grounds: pyschology, acting, seduction. Biotics have never been given that sort of property and ability, the same as Reave. Even Shepard can do it, which makes even less sense.

Shepard being faced with a strength-o-will persuasion check is just a reversal of what he does to others all the time.

[Dean_the_Young]

Bourne Endeavor wrote...

Copy/pasted from TVTropes, "Complete Monster" section. Yes, even TVTropes is not buying the victim act.

"Morinth. As an ardat-yakshi, she has a genetic defect that kills anyone she has sex with. This also makes the act of sex addicting to her, so she set off across the galaxy in a sexual killing spree. She seduces her prey with her wiles and psychic powers, getting close and intimate with them until they're more or less brainwashed, then she kills them in the act. She doesn't regret her actions, and actually relishes in them. When confronted, she actually has the gall to pull the victim card! (Which is only technically true. She had no choice in becoming an ardat-yakshi, but she did have the choice in succumbing to her addiction.)

• Samara, Morinth's mother, who has made it her life's goal to kill Morinth, has spent several hundred years trying to find her. She tells Shepard of a time when she managed to track her to a small village on a remote planet. Morinth had brainwashed the entire village into worshipping her as a goddess. And when Samara tried to confront Morinth, they all (except for the youngest children) attacked her. And because Samara is a Knight Templar whose Code states that she must kill anyone who attacks her... Morinth forced her mother to wipe out an entire village. Somehow that is worse than if she just killed them herself.
• Also, you can kill Samara and recruit Morinth into your party instead. And you can have sex with her, knowing of her condition. The cutscene basically goes through a bunch of "are you sure?" responses (with one of the lines you can say to Morinth being "No thanks, I want to live."). When you finally do the deed...guess what happens. Just guess."

Why are we treating a wiki site as an authoritative source? All it means is that some people who think one way wrote it on the interwebs. It's rather telling, for example, that the writer put all the blame on Samara wiping out a village on Morinth. Morinth never forced Samara to kill them, or even to follow her.