148 réponses à ce sujet

[PauseforEffect]

To answer the OP's question, yeah, I'd say Morinth is pretty bad. That smirk she gives before her famous "Embrace Eternity" would imply it was all a trick.

Honestly, has anyone ever wondered if Shepard will get caught having Morinth around? If Kelly & Kasumi were astute enough to notice...

[Zulu_DFA]

yorkj86 wrote...

Also, Morinth's smirk that you mentioned is almost as bad as TIM's evil smirk, when you give him the Collector base.

That bad, huh? I should check out that smirk... on youtube of course!

Speaking of evil smirks... What's up with Liara's evil smirk, when she thanks Shepard and leaves her NAE office in the beginning of LotSB? Am I the only one who've noticed it?

[lovgreno]

Good or bad depends on who you ask. She have reasonable arguments to support her case.

[Xeranx]

yorkj86 wrote...

PrimalEden wrote...

To answer the OP's question, yeah, I'd say Morinth is pretty bad. That smirk she gives before her famous "Embrace Eternity" would imply it was all a trick.

It was all a trick.  She knew that Shepard wouldn't survive the mind-joining, but since she enjoys the hunt as much as the kill, she manipulates him/her with lies.

Also, Morinth's smirk that you mentioned is almost as bad as TIM's evil smirk, when you give him the Collector base.

The only reason that "smirk" implies it's a trick is because of all the subtle hints they put into the story while also leaving her undeveloped so as not to form some kind of attachment.

There was a thread where we discussed this a few months ago that the smirk in question could have been due to a number of things.  It could have been claiming revenge for Samara's death.  Another one that occurred to me is it could have been her getting ahead of herself at the possibility of Shepard actually surviving.  There's enough to suggest the possibility that Shepard might survive though there's a strong probability that Shepard won't.  Regardless, there's nothing that states that Shepard absolutely wouldn't survive and that it was all a trick.  

[Jedi Master of Orion]

This is probably her theme song. I can just imagine her singing it to herself while she is on the Normandy.

[AdamNW]

There's no doubt in my mind that she's evil.

[CPT Eightball]

Evil/ Bad - whatever. She did want freedom, but she didn't have to kill to get it.

Simple as that.
Also, she kills afterwards just because she can. and because she enjoys it

[atheelogos]

Is this really a question? She is a rapist and a murder. What else do you need to make a conclusion here?

[Dean_the_Young]

For her to actually be a rapist would be a good start.

That she kills certainly doesn't make her a dandy person, but there are a lot sketchier people on the Normandy you could be equally dismissive.



Mordin is a war criminal and used a biological WMD. What else do you need to know?

Grunt is a described savage and openly professes blood lust. What else do you need to know?

Jack freely admits to crimes from murder to theft and destroying space stations. What else do you need to know?

Miranda and Jacob freely work for a terrorist group that you saw involved with terrible things. What else do you need to know?

Samara openly admits to putting down people for nonviolent crimes and wiping out villages in her own personal revenge quest. What else do you need to know?

Thane spent a lifetime being a professional murderer and uses religion to absolves himself of all guilt. What else do you need to know?

etc. etc.

Modifié par Dean_the_Young, 26 novembre 2010 - 11:30 .

[Phaedon]

atheelogos wrote...

Is this really a question? She is a rapist and a murder. What else do you need to make a conclusion here?

And she will kill Shepard when she gets the chance. But you know she is good and stuff, because considering murder and rape as bad is apparently relative. 

[Stazro]

Dean_the_Young wrote...
That she kills certainly doesn't make her a dandy person, but there are a lot sketchier people on the Normandy you could be equally dismissive.

There are certainly a number of people on the normandy who I wouldn't like to have around me in real life. What makes Morinth worse than most others is that she is killing for no other purpose than to satisfy her own lust and hunger for power.

Mordin is a war criminal and used a biological WMD. What else do you need to know?

He is, but at least his crime served the purpose of saving his and other's peoples from an unrelenting enemy.

Samara openly admits to putting down people for nonviolent crimes and wiping out villages in her own personal revenge quest. What else do you need to know?

Concerning Samara and specifically that mentioned village situation I'd like to refer to my extensive post in the "Reopening Samara vs. Morinth" thread.

I don't have much to say about the others at this point, but for each and everyone of the team there is something that makes them less evil than Morinth in my eyes.

Modifié par Stazro, 26 novembre 2010 - 01:05 .

[Xilizhra]

Jedi Master of Orion wrote...

This is probably her theme song. I can just imagine her singing it to herself while she is on the Normandy.

I know it's a joke, but... I really have to point out that the only emotion she can ever experience from other people is intense pleasure. I'm not sure where she goes around hurting people for the sake of it; she's a hedonist to a frighteningly excessive degree, but not a sadist.

[Dean_the_Young]

[quote]Stazro wrote...

[quote]Dean_the_Young wrote...
That she kills certainly doesn't make her a dandy person, but there are a lot sketchier people on the Normandy you could be equally dismissive.[/quote]

There are certainly a number of people on the normandy who I wouldn't like to have around me in real life. What makes Morinth worse than most others is that she is killing for no other purpose than to satisfy her own lust and hunger for power.[/quote]And here I thought an addiction she unwittingly stumbled into had something to do with it.
[quote]
[quote]Mordin is a war criminal and used a biological WMD. What else do you need to know?[/quote]
He is, but at least his crime served the purpose of saving his and other's peoples from an unrelenting enemy.[/quote]It's so nice that bigotry of an entire race generations after a distant war is so benign. Those kids really inherent the sins of their father, don't they?

Concerning Samara and specifically that mentioned village situation I'd like to refer to my extensive post in the "Reopening Samara vs. Morinth" thread.[/quote]Morinth's village wasn't the only one: when Samara talks about saving cities and killing villages, she's speaking in plurals.

[quote]
I don't have much to say about the others at this point, but for each and everyone of the team there is something that makes them less evil than Morinth in my eyes.

[/quote]Yeah.  A sob story and the point of being able to get to know them, rather than have virtually no development  or expansion of any sort.

You don't care about what they did. You're simply passing it because you have more context, something you lack for Morinth.

Modifié par Dean_the_Young, 26 novembre 2010 - 01:40 .

[Xilizhra]

It's so nice that bigotry of an entire race generations after a distant war is so benign. Those kids really inherent the sins of their father, don't they?

Not quite the same thing; it's not that they inherit the sins of the father so much as they keep on committing sins that are definite signs that they'd re-commit the sins of their fathers if their punishment was lifted. Of course, this is likely changing now.

[Dean_the_Young]

Xilizhra wrote...

It's so nice that bigotry of an entire race generations after a distant war is so benign. Those kids really inherent the sins of their father, don't they?

Not quite the same thing; it's not that they inherit the sins of the father so much as they keep on committing sins that are definite signs that they'd re-commit the sins of their fathers if their punishment was lifted. Of course, this is likely changing now.

What continued sins? Are they attacking colonies? Are they invading other systems? Are they enslaving the masses and threatening war against the Citadel?

[Xilizhra]

No, but they're constantly fighting each other and sabre-rattling as much as possible, making it abundantly clear that if they could be doing any of the things you mentioned, they would. See Weyrloc.

[JG The Gamer]

BAD.

[Stazro]

Dean_the_Young wrote...

And here I thought an addiction she unwittingly stumbled into had something to do with it.

Unwittingly? She had the choice and made the selfish choice for the life she is living now, fully aware of its consequences.

It's so nice that bigotry of an entire race generations after a distant war is so benign. Those kids really inherent the sins of their father, don't they?

I'm not saying the genophage was "right" or "good", but at least it has been conceived in order to save lives and it still is. The reason for adjusting the genophage has nothing to do with "sins" or punishment, but the fact that a recovering Krogan population with an unchanged culture of aggression (and there is nothing to support that they have changed) would - again - pose a massive threat for everyone else in the galaxy. It doesn't make Mordin a shining hero, but it puts a huge gap between him and our precious space vampire.

Morinth's village wasn't the only one: when Samara talks about saving cities and killing villages, she's speaking in plurals.

Yes, but is there any reason to believe she didn't have a very good reason in other cases, too?
And again, I'm not declaring Samara a saint, but when she kills, it's at least with the intend to further justice.

Yeah.  A sob story and the point of being able to get to know them, rather than have virtually no development  or expansion of any sort.

You don't care about what they did. You're simply passing it because you have more context, something you lack for Morinth.

All right. I wanted to avoid this, but let's try finding something which distinguishes the other squadmates from Morinth. My requirements are low, since I don't want to prove someone good, but only better than her.

Jack: She is the one who is most similar to Morinth. There is her ruined childhood and the fact that she never had the opportunity to experience a "normal" life and never learned how to behave "socially".  But since I feel generous, I'll give her to you, but she's the only one.

Zaeed: He's a mercenary and he kills for whoever pays him and without thinking much of it. He is close, but I think we can factor in in his favour that he (usually) is not the one who chooses who is to live or die. Also, while killing for a living certainly is nothing good, in my book it beats killing for pleasure anytime.

Thane: He was recruited as a child and from that moment on trained to become the perfect assassin. He never had the choice what kind of life to live. He never knew something other than what he was "sculpted" to be and he feels indebted to the Hanar for saving his people. Although he rationalizes his deeds by viewing himself as a mere tool, just like a weapon, he is obviously not so detached that he wouldn't care about his victims, evidenced by the fact that he prays for their souls.

Grunt: He is bred to be a warrior. His purpose is to do what soldiers do: Kill the enemy in battle. Granted, he enjoys it, but the outcome is the same.

Miranda and Jacob: They believe they fight for a good cause. They feel
that no one but Cerberus is prepared to "do what is necessary" to
further that cause. Jacob especially is good at heart, though he is
mislead, thinking that Cerberus is where he belongs.

Kasumi: She's a criminal, but she has something like a "thief's honour". Killing is not her business.

Garrus: He is a selfless idealist. He fights for justice and he stands up to criminals, when no one else does.

Tali: I don't need to say anything here, do I?

[Flamewielder]

Dean_the_Young wrote...

*snip*

Many (most? Would need to check the statistic) also fail in rehab, or succumb again shortly after. Rehab's hardly a final closure for many issues. Rehab is also temporary, and often fixes the results of voluntary ailments..The Asari also don't have a rehab solution for Ardat Yakshis: the AY are effectively shoved in a comfortable tom that they will never be allowed to leave until they die of old age.

Morinth's opportunity was to be entombed with her sisters for the next thousand years, and little else, for the grand crime of her mother's choice in partners.

Essentially, that's the sum of it.

Going back to the OP's question on wether Morinth is good or bad would depend on what definition you decide to give to the words. Is Morinth bad for her potential lover/victim? Insofar as the victim is presumed to desire to live, Morinth is definitely bad because the lover will die as a result. Morinth's intent or addiction is immaterial in this aspect: intentional or not, death is bad for the victim.

Is a cheetah bad for a gazelle? Yes. Is the gazelle good for the cheetah? Yes. Is the cheetah bad for the gazelle species? Perhaps she is, but that's getting beyond the OP's scope.

[Xilizhra]

Also, while killing for a living certainly is nothing good, in my book it beats killing for pleasure anytime.

...why? Dead is dead regardless of what the killer's motives are, and in this case neither is attempting to defend themselves/others. I find them wholly indistinguishable... except for the fact that Zaeed isn't addicted to killing.

[Mike2640]

Seriously? This is still a discussion? I figured we'd all reached a consensus that killing innocent people makes you a bad person.

She's a serial killer. She kills people for kicksies. She was literally faced with the options of "Killing People" and "Not Killing People" and she chose the former. She is not "tragic", she is evil.

The difference between her and the other squadies is that they dont hunt down innocent people. They dont get sexual pleasure from the act of victimizing them, and as far as we know (With the exception of Thane), they've all only killed in self-defense. Admittedly some of them may have started the fight, but causing deaths was probably not the goal going in. They certainly didn't get off on it. And none of the people they killed were innocent. Armed mercenaries are a bit different than that girl on Omega Morinth killed.

I wonder if people would still be sympathetic to Morinth if she looked less like a Hot Space Amazon, and more like this guy.

Modifié par Mike2640, 26 novembre 2010 - 05:25 .

[Xilizhra]

She's a serial killer. She kills people for kicksies. She was literally faced with the options of "Killing People" and "Not Killing People" and she chose the former. She is not "tragic", she is evil.

This is a rather terrible oversimplification. Her choices were "killing people," "life imprisonment," and "death." Even Samara admits that she was tragic.

and as far as we know (With the exception of Thane), they've all only killed in self-defense.

Wrongo. Jack and Zaeed have definitely set out to kill people before, and I'm pretty sure Miranda and Mordin have as well. Even Garrus, though he's admittedly much more discriminatory in his targets.

I wonder if people would still be sympathetic to Morinth if she looked less like a Hot Space Amazon, and more like this guy.

You do know that he's got a much larger fanbase than Morinth, yes?

[Xenserrah]

Mike2640 wrote...
I wonder if people would still be sympathetic to Morinth if she looked less like a Hot Space Amazon, and more like this guy.

I like Hannibal Lecter...he is sweetest guy ever ^^ Morinth - even better ;-)