148 réponses à ce sujet

[Mike2640]

[quote]Xilizhra wrote...

[quote]She's a serial killer. She kills people for kicksies. She was literally faced with the options of "Killing People" and "Not Killing People" and she chose the former. She is not "tragic", she is evil.[/quote]
This is a rather terrible oversimplification. Her choices were "killing people," "life imprisonment," and "death." Even Samara admits that she was tragic.
[/quote]

Doesn't matter. She had a choice. May have been a crappy one, but she it was always in her power to not kill people. She just liked it too much.

[quote]
[quote]and as far as we know (With the exception of Thane), they've all only killed in self-defense.[/quote]
Wrongo. Jack and Zaeed have definitely set out to kill people before, and I'm pretty sure Miranda and Mordin have as well. Even Garrus, though he's admittedly much more discriminatory in his targets.
[/quote]
Mercenaries, and other neerdowells. Jack has never hunted down a teenage girl and fried her brain just caus she thought it'd be fun. Morinth has.
[/quote]

[quote]
[quote]I wonder if people would still be sympathetic to Morinth if she looked less like a Hot Space Amazon, and more like this guy.[/quote]
You do know that he's got a much larger fanbase than Morinth, yes?[/quote]

Yeah, but not many are saying "Poor Lector". He's more Magnificant Bastard, than Tragic Figure. Even if there's badness in his past.

[Xilizhra]

Doesn't matter. She had a choice. May have been a crappy one, but she it was always in her power to not kill people. She just liked it too much.

Technically true, but it still sounds far too dismissive. She probably viewed confinement as equivalent to a living death itself.

Mercenaries, and other neerdowells. Jack has never hunted down a teenage girl and fried her brain just caus she thought it'd be fun. Morinth has.

Morinth has also never wiped out villages or crashed a space station into a moon for the lulz. Or potentially blown up a factory and leave all of its workers to burn to death.

[Mike2640]

Xilizhra wrote...

Doesn't matter. She had a choice. May have been a crappy one, but she it was always in her power to not kill people. She just liked it too much.

Technically true, but it still sounds far too dismissive. She probably viewed confinement as equivalent to a living death itself.

So then we agree that she would rather kill innocent people than live a monastery  life. How is that a point in her favor again?

Mercenaries, and other neerdowells. Jack has never hunted down a teenage girl and fried her brain just caus she thought it'd be fun. Morinth has.

Morinth has also never wiped out villages or crashed a space station into a moon for the lulz. Or potentially blown up a factory and leave all of its workers to burn to death.

I think the fact that her space station crashing was dubbed "Vandalism" implies that it was empty at the time. You're right about the factory though. Zaeed's a douche. Doesn't make Morinth any less evil.

[Xilizhra]

So then we agree that she would rather kill innocent people than live a monastery life. How is that a point in her favor again?

It's not, but it's not as much of a point against her as you initially made it out to be.

I think the fact that her space station crashing was dubbed "Vandalism" implies that it was empty at the time. You're right about the factory though. Zaeed's a douche. Doesn't make Morinth any less evil.

No, specifically crashing it into the moon was the vandalism part; the space station was a separate issue. Considering Morinth's rather high standards for her partners, I think it's safe to say that Jack and Zaeed have both killed quite a few more undeserving people than she has, and Samara may well have done so as well. It doesn't make Morinth less evil, but it does make her less unique in your squad.

[Mike2640]

Except none of the others killed for pleasure. Killing was simply an unintended consequence. There's a difference between people who are willing to kill, and people who make killing their solution to a boring Sunday afternoon.

And yeah it still is just as much a point against her. It doesn't matter if the alternative is "torture by comfy chair" or even death. If you choose "Get sexual pleasure from a life of killing innocent people" then you're evil. She could have escaped and not killed people for fun. She didn't.

Modifié par Mike2640, 26 novembre 2010 - 06:00 .

[Xilizhra]

Jack's killed for pleasure quite frequently; she mentions that she still gets warm feelings during a fight. And Zaeed's attempted killing of Santiago would, I daresay, bring him pleasure. Not to mention that I still don't see why it changes anything, as dead is dead.

[Mike2640]

Xilizhra wrote...

Jack's killed for pleasure quite frequently; she mentions that she still gets warm feelings during a fight. And Zaeed's attempted killing of Santiago would, I daresay, bring him pleasure. Not to mention that I still don't see why it changes anything, as dead is dead.

If you're referring to her time in Teltan, as I recall they beat her half to death if she didn't fight to kill. Since then when she killed it was, for the most part, other mercenaries or people with firearms. It doesn't make it good, but the playing field was even which was way more than Morinth's victims could hope for.
We've already established Zaeed's douchiness:P, but on the other hand that was revenge.  He didn't want to kill Santiago just because it'd give him a happy, he wanted to kill him because he shot him in the face and left him for dead.

EDIT: Another point on Jack's kid-fights-to-the-death. The other kid was already in the fight to kill as well. Hence self defense. The only reason Jack got the pleasure from the kill is because her captors would give her drugs every time she won. She didn't have a choice. Morinth did.

Modifié par Mike2640, 26 novembre 2010 - 06:23 .

[Xeranx]

yorkj86 wrote...

No, no evidence at all, other than the Codex stating clearly the consequences of joining minds with an Ardat-Yakshi.  And Morinth's manipulativeness.  I'll go with the smirk as her conveying an "He's-so-damn-gullible-I-can't-believe-he-actually-fell-for-it" sentiment.

The codex does state what happens with an attempt at mating with an Ardat-Yakshi, but it says nothing about Morinth being manipulative.  The codex says "While seductive and sexually-driven as other Asari, Ardat-Yakshi are cogenitally sterile".

Mike2640 wrote...

Doesn't matter. She had a choice. May have been a crappy one, but she it was always in her power to not kill people. She just liked it too much.

More choice than to say, not orphan a village full of Asari children?

Mercenaries, and other neerdowells. Jack has never hunted down a teenage girl and fried her brain just caus she thought it'd be fun. Morinth has.

And we receive evidence that this is exactly the case or remotely the case?  My question still is why did Nef get a passcode to enter the VIP section.  We also receive confirmation as to Nef's age so we can make an easier decision as to who deserves to die?

Modifié par Xeranx, 26 novembre 2010 - 07:23 .

[Mike2640]

Xeranx wrote...

yorkj86 wrote...

No, no evidence at all, other than the Codex stating clearly the consequences of joining minds with an Ardat-Yakshi.  And Morinth's manipulativeness.  I'll go with the smirk as her conveying an "He's-so-damn-gullible-I-can't-believe-he-actually-fell-for-it" sentiment.

The codex does state what happens with an attempt at mating with an Ardat-Yakshi, but it says nothing about Morinth being manipulative.  The codex says "While seductive and sexually-driven as other Asari, Ardat-Yakshi are cogenitally sterile".

Ardat-Yakshi by nature aren't manipulative, no, but Morinth is.

Mike2640 wrote...

Doesn't matter. She had a choice. May have been a crappy one, but she it was always in her power to not kill people. She just liked it too much.

More choice than to say, not orphan a village full of Asari children?

I never said Samara was guilt free (And neither does she, as I recall). I was talking specifically about Morinth.

Mercenaries, and other neerdowells. Jack has never hunted down a teenage girl and fried her brain just caus she thought it'd be fun. Morinth has.

And we receive evidence that this is exactly the case or remotely the case?  My question still is why did Nef get a passcode to enter the VIP section.  We also receive confirmation as to Nef's age so we can make an easier decision as to who deserves to die?

What does the pass code have to do with anything? My point is Nef was, by all appearances, an innocent girl who was lied to and seduced by Morinth and was then murdered by her.

[Xeranx]

Mike2640 wrote...

Xeranx wrote...

yorkj86 wrote...

No, no evidence at all, other than the Codex stating clearly the consequences of joining minds with an Ardat-Yakshi.  And Morinth's manipulativeness.  I'll go with the smirk as her conveying an "He's-so-damn-gullible-I-can't-believe-he-actually-fell-for-it" sentiment.

The codex does state what happens with an attempt at mating with an Ardat-Yakshi, but it says nothing about Morinth being manipulative.  The codex says "While seductive and sexually-driven as other Asari, Ardat-Yakshi are cogenitally sterile".

Ardat-Yakshi by nature aren't manipulative, no, but Morinth is.

Mike2640 wrote...

Doesn't matter. She had a choice. May have been a crappy one, but she it was always in her power to not kill people. She just liked it too much.

More choice than to say, not orphan a village full of Asari children?

I never said Samara was guilt free (And neither does she, as I recall). I was talking specifically about Morinth.

Mercenaries, and other neerdowells. Jack has never hunted down a teenage girl and fried her brain just caus she thought it'd be fun. Morinth has.

And we receive evidence that this is exactly the case or remotely the case?  My question still is why did Nef get a passcode to enter the VIP section.  We also receive confirmation as to Nef's age so we can make an easier decision as to who deserves to die?

What does the pass code have to do with anything? My point is Nef was, by all appearances, an innocent girl who was lied to and seduced by Morinth and was then murdered by her.

Keep in mind that the only reason anyone labels Morinth as evil is Nef's death.  The passcode is the reason Nef was allowed into the VIP club in the first place which eliminates the claim that Morinth "hunted down" anyone.  It is the only actual detail we can point to that puts Nef on a particular path that leads to her death.  It is reasonable to assume that if Nef never received the passcode then she wouldn't have died.

[Mike2640]

No I label Morinth as evil because she's a serial killer. It's also reasonable to assume that had Nef slept in that day she might not have been killed. That doesn't mean Morinth isn't a psychopath and wouldn't have simply found someone else to kill.

[Kappa Neko]

Mike2640 wrote...
I wonder if people would still be sympathetic to Morinth if she looked less like a Hot Space Amazon, and more like this guy.

You know, I've always kind of liked him. I know this makes *me* sound insane but I'm serious! I slept like a baby after "Silence of the Lambs" because I didn't find him particularily scary. Know why? because he doesn't kill people at random. He never kills innocent people (if I remember correctly). He kills only those who ****** him off. And those who want to keep him in prison, of course. Even though he's a "monster", yes, he has a moral code and I found this intriguing. Nobody is pure evil or pure good.
Morinth is not Hannibal. She does not distinguish between people. She kills whom she deems the most fun to seduce. She is a lot scarier than him.

Anyway, I always feel kind of sorry for Morinth. When I first did this mission and she says "And they call *me* a monster" before Samara kills her, I thought "She does have a point." Funny how everybody thinks Samara is such a nice person. To me Samara's code is pretty scary, too! She, too, kills without mercy. So just because her code tells her to kill, it's ok?! Oh great.... Sure, Samara hunts the bad guys. Makes the universe safer. But why does that automatically make her a good person? She follows a code instead of murderous desires. But she hunts her prey as mercilessly as Morinth does. Once you've violated the code you're as good as dead. I'd rather have a serial killer hunt me than this efficent killing machine called Samara! Because with a serial killer you might find a shred of humanity. With Samara there is no use begging. She'd even kill Shepard if the code required it! 
Samara is a very ambilavent character. So is Morinth.
Morinth enjoys killing, yes. That's certainly something I would call bad. But does she do so by choice? You guys realize there is no free will, right? Everything we do is dictated by past experiences. Morinth was born doomed to be a monster. She's addicted to killing. Even if he once had free will she doesn't have it anymore. So technically she's not to blame. She must be stopped, of course. But I don't see her as evil.
Samara killing her is cruel. Sorry. That goddamn code is cruel! There would have been other ways to deal with her. No matter how many people she killed she did not deserve to die. Nor does Samara. The game made me choose and I chose Samara. Because she's less likely to kill me than Morinth. Morinth should not be free. Don't get me wrong there. I'm just saying she's not evil. Nobody is evil! Some people are just more dangerous and harmful than others, for reasons not aways apparent at first.
Actually I wouldn't want any of the ME2 women around me, except for Tali. Samara, Miranda and Jack? Neither of them seem very trustworthy.

[Xeranx]

Mike2640 wrote...
No I label Morinth as evil because she's a serial killer. It's also reasonable to assume that had Nef slept in that day she might not have been killed. That doesn't mean Morinth isn't a psychopath and wouldn't have simply found someone else to kill.

We can get a lot of mileage with assumptions like that. If Nef wasn't born she might not have been killed is as much a red-herring as your stated possible assumption. It's intent is to put up paper-thin possibilities that really have nothing to support them save that they can be stated.

Fact of the matter is the passcode is real. It allows an individual access to an area she wouldn't have regular access to. That passcode allows Shepard to enter an area that he/she is unable to access unless they also have said code. Without that it neither Nef nor Shepard are in any way at risk for anything happening to them beyond what would already happen on Omega.

How evil Morinth is because of her being a serial killer pales in contrast to a Justicar who has the ability to use an ancient code to justify herself at any and every turn. It's like a law enforcement official using their knowledge of the law to bend but not break it. She knows restraint. She showed it to the children of that village, but couldn't bring herself to subdue any of their parents and continue on her quest. But Morinth is evil through and through. Fine.

Modifié par Xeranx, 26 novembre 2010 - 10:19 .

[Mike2640]

Kappa Neko wrote...

snip

That's bull**** dude. We all have freewill. We all have a choice. Our past doesn't determine our future, we do. Morinth chose to kill. She is to blame.

Samara's code is pretty ****ed up at times, but she still has way more humanity than Morinth does. I'll again point to the clinical definition of a Psychopath (Which Morinth is); someone who cannot feel empathy with other living beings. Ergo, she cant feel bad for you when she kills you. Atleast Samara feels guilty when she has to kill a bunch of people.

Modifié par Mike2640, 26 novembre 2010 - 10:19 .

[Mike2640]

Xeranx wrote...

Mike2640 wrote...
No I label Morinth as evil because she's a serial killer. It's also reasonable to assume that had Nef slept in that day she might not have been killed. That doesn't mean Morinth isn't a psychopath and wouldn't have simply found someone else to kill.

We can get a lot of mileage with assumptions like that. If Nef wasn't born she might not have been killed is as much a red-herring as your stated possible assumption. It's intent is to put up paper-thin possibilities that really have nothing to support them save that they can be stated.

Fact of the matter is the passcode is real. It allows an individual access to an area she wouldn't have regular access to. That passcode allows Shepard to enter an area that he/she is unable to access unless they also have said code. Without that it neither Nef nor Shepard are in any way at risk for anything happening to them beyond what would already happen on Omega.

How evil Morinth is because of her being a serial killer pales in contrast to a Justicar who has the ability to use an ancient code to justify herself at any and every turn. It's like a law enforcement official using their knowledge of the law to bend but not break it. She knows restraint. She showed it to the children of that village, but couldn't bring herself to subdue any of their parents and continue on her quest. But Morinth is evil through and through. Fine.

I'm not defending Samara. Most mass murderers pale in comparision to Stalin or Hitler (Hey, Godwin's Law!), that doesn't make them any less evil.

In my eyes, however, what makes Morinth worse is that she enjoys it. She loves killing people. Samara may (or may not, we dont know) have a higher body count, but her repentant nature wins points with me.

Modifié par Mike2640, 26 novembre 2010 - 10:23 .

[Xeranx]

Mike2640 wrote...

Kappa Neko wrote...

snip

That's bull**** dude. We all have freewill. We all have a choice. Our past doesn't determine our future, we do. Morinth chose to kill. She is to blame.

Samara's code is pretty ****ed up at times, but she still has way more humanity than Morinth does. I'll again point to the clinical definition of a Psychopath (Which Morinth is); someone who cannot feel empathy with other living beings. Ergo, she cant feel bad for you when she kills you. Atleast Samara feels guilty when she has to kill a bunch of people.

We know Samara feels guilty because other people tell us right?  They tell us about actions she's done in many attempts to rectify her actions.  Wait, we're told she feels guilty because she told us right?  So because the person who commits the act isn't a bad person because they express remorse despite the fact that they knew what they were doing when they committed said act?  

Suspect: "I killed him your Honor.  I knew it was wrong, but I felt I had to.  I just feel worthless for doing it.  I'm sorry."

Judge: "I can see how remorseful you are.  You are hereby free to go."



And of course no one can fake empathy if they feel it absolutely necessary to do so.

Samara may (or may not, we dont know) have a higher body count, but her repentant nature wins points with me.

It's entirely probable not to mention possible that she will/does have a higher body count.

Modifié par Xeranx, 26 novembre 2010 - 10:35 .

[FireEye]

Talking to them both, Samara seems to enjoy killing as much as Morinth does, she simply has an antiquated asari Justice-Without-Mercy jurisdiction on her side.



*shrug?* I think Morinth is more sympathetic, but I don't think I could control her, and once she got away from me she'd probably fall back into killing more people (I want to save her and try/fail/succeed in redeeming her, but I don't think the game can pick up on my intentions, so...). With Samara, I can at least use the code to bind her if I had to. I can't really defend either of their actions.

[Mike2640]

Xeranx wrote...

Mike2640 wrote...

Kappa Neko wrote...

snip

That's bull**** dude. We all have freewill. We all have a choice. Our past doesn't determine our future, we do. Morinth chose to kill. She is to blame.

Samara's code is pretty ****ed up at times, but she still has way more humanity than Morinth does. I'll again point to the clinical definition of a Psychopath (Which Morinth is); someone who cannot feel empathy with other living beings. Ergo, she cant feel bad for you when she kills you. Atleast Samara feels guilty when she has to kill a bunch of people.

We know Samara feels guilty because other people tell us right?  They tell us about actions she's done in many attempts to rectify her actions.  Wait, we're told she feels guilty because she told us right?  So because the person who commits the act isn't a bad person because they express remorse despite the fact that they knew what they were doing when they committed said act?  

Suspect: "I killed him your Honor.  I knew it was wrong, but I felt I had to.  I just feel worthless for doing it.  I'm sorry."

Judge: "I can see how remorseful you are.  You are hereby free to go."



And of course no one can fake empathy if they feel it absolutely necessary to do so.

Dont mistake me, her remorse (Which I read into and for that I apologize) doesn't make her a good person. It simply made her more endearing to me, personally. They're both murderers. 

Again i'm not defending Samara. Morinth is the subject here and I find her to be unmistakably evil for killing people for over 400 years and loving it.

[Xeranx]

That's fine.  There are somethings I found about Morinth that I feel make her remorseful.  That may be my downfall however. 

I just don't like how with absence of evidence people will swear up and down that Morinth is downright evil and Samara is absolutely pious though she is planting the seed of Morinth's destruction all the while until we finally get the choice to kill her or not. Especially when there's supposed to be an investigation that never, ever happens.

Modifié par Xeranx, 26 novembre 2010 - 10:40 .

[PrinceLionheart]

She has a smug grin when she kills you after having sex with her? How is there any argument over whether she's good or trustworthy?

[JRCHOharry]

Good? She's rotten...



To. The. Core.

[Phaedon]

I like how people assume that psychopaths don't have a choice.

[Xeranx]

PrinceLionheart wrote...

She has a smug grin when she kills you after having sex with her? How is there any argument over whether she's good or trustworthy?

Read the thread...

[PrinceLionheart]

Xeranx wrote...

PrinceLionheart wrote...

She has a smug grin when she kills you after having sex with her? How is there any argument over whether she's good or trustworthy?

Read the thread...

I've read it and it doesn't change my original statement. Morinth doesn't care about her condition and kills regardless. Sure, I'm empathetic towards her being born with such a condition, but it was also her choice to give into the addiction and go on a killing spree.

[Xilizhra]

absence of evidence

On the one hand, this is annoying because I feel that her character was shirked and there was no point in even including her if they were going to do a halfassed job. On the other hand, it's a bit reassuring because we can assume that the qualities and stories that'd come up if she was fleshed out would make her less one-dimensional than her in-game portrayal shows.