148 réponses à ce sujet

[Xilizhra]

I'm fine with this. I'll just go with the one that's less boring.

[GodWood]

Good or bad, she needed to die.

[tommyt_1994]

JRCHOharry wrote...

Good? She's rotten...

To. The. Core.

It may have not been intentional, but what you did there, I see it.

[Kappa Neko]

Mike2640 wrote...

Kappa Neko wrote...

snip

That's bull**** dude. We all have freewill. We all have a choice. Our past doesn't determine our future, we do. Morinth chose to kill. She is to blame.

Samara's code is pretty ****ed up at times, but she still has way more humanity than Morinth does. I'll again point to the clinical definition of a Psychopath (Which Morinth is); someone who cannot feel empathy with other living beings. Ergo, she cant feel bad for you when she kills you. Atleast Samara feels guilty when she has to kill a bunch of people.

No, it's not. What we desire and what we fear is a result of our upbringing, our current situation and our genes/biology. For example: Is it my free will to be scared of dogs because I got bitten by a dog once? Is it my free will to desire to have a fancy house and a fancy car? Not really. But it makes sense to me to be scared of some things and to want others. Experience and socialization tells me that. Now to some people killing makes a lot of sense. To them it might be the only way to relate or cope with something.
So define free will to me. We are capable of making choices, yes. But only inside a certain framework. And then the reasons for our choice might not exactly be free will at all. What I eat for dinner? Some people choose food for low calories. Why? because they have a compulsion to stay thin? Why? because society says being thin is good. Often we don't think about what influences our choices and that's why they seem like free will to us. But they are not. Only by realizing what drives us do we have a chance of changing our habits. Most people don't think about it.
So, go ahead deluding yourself that you're the master of all your actions. If that makes you feel better.

Serial killers can feel remorse for what they do, you know. Just because they continue to kill doesn't mean they feel nothing. But that's beside the point. Morinth doesn't feel guilty and Samara does. So what? To me feeling guilty but continuing to kill just because of a stupid set of rules is worse than continuing because you feel nothing. But both of them act according to their logic.
Yes, Samara is nice and kind to those she does not hunt. I'm not saying Morinth is preferable to Samara. I just don't like this "evil" labelling.
I'm not saying murderers shouldn't be punished. They must be punished. But they are still people and for that they deserve some respect. It's easy to assign blame. To label people monsters and inhuman, so we don't have to look at what made them that way. Nothing happens for no reason.

So glad to see nobdy agrees with me..... 

[Intensity Penguin]

Good? Morinth? Those two words don't go together in a sentence in my book unless accompanied by a "is" and "not". She's completely and utterly evil. She basically rapes people and then destroys their brains telepathically. And she enjoys it, she's a sadistic, evil and generally f***** up asari. SHE'S AWESOME

[Mike2640]

Kappa Neko wrote...

Mike2640 wrote...

Kappa Neko wrote...

snip

That's bull**** dude. We all have freewill. We all have a choice. Our past doesn't determine our future, we do. Morinth chose to kill. She is to blame.

Samara's code is pretty ****ed up at times, but she still has way more humanity than Morinth does. I'll again point to the clinical definition of a Psychopath (Which Morinth is); someone who cannot feel empathy with other living beings. Ergo, she cant feel bad for you when she kills you. Atleast Samara feels guilty when she has to kill a bunch of people.

No, it's not. What we desire and what we fear is a result of our upbringing, our current situation and our genes/biology. For example: Is it my free will to be scared of dogs because I got bitten by a dog once? Is it my free will to desire to have a fancy house and a fancy car? Not really. But it makes sense to me to be scared of some things and to want others. Experience and socialization tells me that. Now to some people killing makes a lot of sense. To them it might be the only way to relate or cope with something.
So define free will to me. We are capable of making choices, yes. But only inside a certain framework. And then the reasons for our choice might not exactly be free will at all. What I eat for dinner? Some people choose food for low calories. Why? because they have a compulsion to stay thin? Why? because society says being thin is good. Often we don't think about what influences our choices and that's why they seem like free will to us. But they are not. Only by realizing what drives us do we have a chance of changing our habits. Most people don't think about it.
So, go ahead deluding yourself that you're the master of all your actions. If that makes you feel better.

Serial killers can feel remorse for what they do, you know. Just because they continue to kill doesn't mean they feel nothing. But that's beside the point. Morinth doesn't feel guilty and Samara does. So what? To me feeling guilty but continuing to kill just because of a stupid set of rules is worse than continuing because you feel nothing. But both of them act according to their logic.
Yes, Samara is nice and kind to those she does not hunt. I'm not saying Morinth is preferable to Samara. I just don't like this "evil" labelling.
I'm not saying murderers shouldn't be punished. They must be punished. But they are still people and for that they deserve some respect. It's easy to assign blame. To label people monsters and inhuman, so we don't have to look at what made them that way. Nothing happens for no reason.

So glad to see nobdy agrees with me..... 

The influences of society and history are just that; influences. They dont determine what you will or will not do, they simply have an effect, and that effect can be ignored or overcome. Freewill is deciding for yourself what you will do, regardless of influences or past experiences. Society tells us to stay thin? I can easily tell society to **** off and eat as many Twinkies as I want. As you said, some people "choose" to eat low-calorie foods. Just as many people dont.

Morinth was faced with a choice, regardless of whether you agree or not. She chose to be a murderer, just like every murderer does. It doesn't matter how crappy their life has been before that moment, the choice to take someone's life, is ultimately and completely theirs. And Morinth was faced with that decision many times.
Predetermination is simply an excuse to deny culpability.

And for the record I never said Morinth wasn't a person, but since when cant people be evil? And yes, it's pretty easy to assign blame to Morinth when you were her next victim. She's guilty. She did it. Blame is and should be assigned.

[Xilizhra]

If you believed that Morinth could be redeemed, would you do so?

[Mike2640]

Xilizhra wrote...

If you believed that Morinth could be redeemed, would you do so?

If she was willing to turn herself into authorities? To accept what she's done and face punishment for it? Absolutely. I'd fight for her if she wanted to do the right thing. But she doesn't, whether because of under-development or just be cause she is unrepentant.

Modifié par Mike2640, 27 novembre 2010 - 05:10 .

[Xilizhra]

Well, that would likely involve death/imprisonment, and thus likely wouldn't be an option. I was more referring to her not necessarily submitting to lawful punishment, but simply doing good deeds/not sexing people to death from now on.

[Mike2640]

Xilizhra wrote...

Well, that would likely involve death/imprisonment, and thus likely wouldn't be an option. I was more referring to her not necessarily submitting to lawful punishment, but simply doing good deeds/not sexing people to death from now on.

It'd be a step in the right direction. But if she truly felt she should be punished for her crimes, hence repentance, then why wouldn't she accept the punishment of the society she's wronged? She shouldn't really be the one who gets to decide her punishment, no?

[Mike2640]

It certainly would have been interesting if Morinth had been repentant. Like perhaps she went to Omega to go completely off the radar and live in solitude or something, essentially having the monastery life she shunned before.

When you find her she's quiet and kind, but withdrawn (Sort of like a more wise, world-weary Liara). When Samara moves in to kill her you have to decide whether to let Samara have her way or stand up for Morinth. Samara cannot stop because of her code (Plus perhaps her own drive to finally kill Morinth) which would lead to a boss fight with her. After that you can convince Morinth to join you as a way to atone, or leave her be. On the ship you learn more about Ardat-Yakshi and what event made her give up killing.

I do believe in redemption, but I don't believe it can be dragged out of someone. If Morinth doesn't want to change, doesn't want to stop killing people, then she wont. Not unless someone stops her.

Modifié par Mike2640, 27 novembre 2010 - 05:32 .

[Kappa Neko]

Mike2640 wrote...
The influences of society and history are just that; influences. They dont determine what you will or will not do, they simply have an effect, and that effect can be ignored or overcome. Freewill is deciding for yourself what you will do, regardless of influences or past experiences. Society tells us to stay thin? I can easily tell society to **** off and eat as many Twinkies as I want. As you said, some people "choose" to eat low-calorie foods. Just as many people dont.

Morinth was faced with a choice, regardless of whether you agree or not. She chose to be a murderer, just like every murderer does. It doesn't matter how crappy their life has been before that moment, the choice to take someone's life, is ultimately and completely theirs. And Morinth was faced with that decision many times.
Predetermination is simply an excuse to deny culpability.

And for the record I never said Morinth wasn't a person, but since when cant people be evil? And yes, it's pretty easy to assign blame to Morinth when you were her next victim. She's guilty. She did it. Blame is and should be assigned.

Yes, influences are just influences. But if a hundered bad things happen to you, these influences become very powerful. It's very difficult to overcome certain behavioral patterns. It's not possible for everyone. Some people are weaker than others. I don't blame people for their weaknesses.
That said, I agree that we shouldn't use that as an excuse to give up or free ourselves from all resposibilities. 
You kill somebody, you'll be held resposible for that. How else to handle it? No person exists independent of others. How we interact with the world is who we are. But since we cannot determine who else is to blame for something, we can only punish the one who ended up doing the horrible deed. And rightly so. Because the damage is done, and now we must make sure no more damage is done in the future.
It's easy to judge others for their deeds. Just because we can do or resist certain things, we assume everyone else can. But that's not true.
I'm not saying it's all predetermined. It's not, simply because nobody knows what's going to happen next. People can always surpirse us, good or bad. Many people (in western countries) have the chance to change their lives. At least some aspects of it.  Some people are just too lazy, yes. You may judge them for that. The problem is that we judge people according to our own capabilities. And that can be very unfair.

I really don't mean to free murderers from all resposibilities. All I'm saying is that it's not that simple. It's even less simple when you throw in addiction.
Well, I guess we have to agree to disagree on that matter.

[Mike2640]

I'll give you that it's not a simple matter. There are many factors that make us who we are and influence our actions. But I do believe that influences can be overcome if the person wants to badly enough.
A child can be beaten by his drunken father every day until he's 18. Most psychologists would say that child will grow up to be just like his father. But by the simple fact that some abused don't become abusers themselves shows that, atleast to me, if a person truly wants it, they can defy the influences and societal pressures placed upon them. And if that person's fate is in their own hands, than every other person who did become an abuser also did.

You're right, it's not simple. Often times it really sucks and can seem impossible, but we always have a choice.

Modifié par Mike2640, 27 novembre 2010 - 05:56 .

[Xilizhra]

Actually, all your example truly proves is that some people are stronger and more capable of resisting outside influences than others. Many truly don't have a choice in what they become.

[Mike2640]

Xilizhra wrote...

Actually, all your example truly proves is that some people are stronger and more capable of resisting outside influences than others. Many truly don't have a choice in what they become.

And there I disagree. Just because it's harder for some, doesn't mean it's not their decision.

[Xilizhra]

If someone is mentally ill, are the actions they take because of that brain imbalance their responsibility?

[Mike2640]

Xilizhra wrote...

If someone is mentally ill, are the actions they take because of that brain imbalance their responsibility?

We're not referring to mentally ill people, or atleast i'm not. Morinth, and most serial killers aren't mentally ill. Someone cognizant of their actions is responsible for the consequences.

EDIT: What York said^_^

Modifié par Mike2640, 27 novembre 2010 - 06:13 .

[Xilizhra]

She is, however, addicted and presumably killed someone by accident before her condition was discovered. Considering how powerful that addiction presumably is...



Ah well. I just don't think it's a simple issue.

[Kappa Neko]

Mike2640 wrote...

I'll give you that it's not a simple matter. There are many factors that make us who we are and influence our actions. But I do believe that influences can be overcome if the person wants to badly enough.
A child can be beaten by his drunken father every day until he's 18. Most psychologists would say that child will grow up to be just like his father. But by the simple fact that some abused don't become abusers themselves shows that, atleast to me, if a person truly wants it, they can defy the influences and societal pressures placed upon them. And if that person's fate is in their own hands, than every other person who did become an abuser also did.

You're right, it's not simple. Often times it really sucks and can seem impossible, but we always have a choice.

I'm no psychologist myself. I can only tell what I've read, which is:
the reason why some people with a bad childhood end up criminals and some don't is genetic. I'm not talking about some people being born evil. It's about our capability to deal with trauma. That's apparently genetic. This is why of two brothers one grows up to be a relatively normal person and the other one ends up in jail.
Please don't feel insulted by this but your attitude is typical. You can't just go and generalize everything. "Because he can do it, so can you." How do you know that? No, we cannot achieve anything if we just *really* want to. We all have limitations. Life is not a movie. We're not all Shepards.

[PrinceLionheart]

Xilizhra wrote...

She is, however, addicted and presumably killed someone by accident before her condition was discovered. Considering how powerful that addiction presumably is...

Ah well. I just don't think it's a simple issue.

And all siding with her does is enabling her addiction. You don't help her by choosing to spare her life because the game presents that when given the opportunity she continues to kill to satisfy her lust. Like I've said before, I feel sympathy that she was left with either living in isolation or death, but that's where it ends. She is an unrepentant serial killer. All these extra theories of her being a product of her environment is irrelevant because the only thing she uses to justify her stance was "It wasn't choice."

[Mike2640]

Kappa Neko wrote...

Mike2640 wrote...

I'll give you that it's not a simple matter. There are many factors that make us who we are and influence our actions. But I do believe that influences can be overcome if the person wants to badly enough.
A child can be beaten by his drunken father every day until he's 18. Most psychologists would say that child will grow up to be just like his father. But by the simple fact that some abused don't become abusers themselves shows that, atleast to me, if a person truly wants it, they can defy the influences and societal pressures placed upon them. And if that person's fate is in their own hands, than every other person who did become an abuser also did.

You're right, it's not simple. Often times it really sucks and can seem impossible, but we always have a choice.

I'm no psychologist myself. I can only tell what I've read, which is:
the reason why some people with a bad childhood end up criminals and some don't is genetic. I'm not talking about some people being born evil. It's about our capability to deal with trauma. That's apparently genetic. This is why of two brothers one grows up to be a relatively normal person and the other one ends up in jail.
Please don't feel insulted by this but your attitude is typical. You can't just go and generalize everything. "Because he can do it, so can you." How do you know that? No, we cannot achieve anything if we just *really* want to. We all have limitations. Life is not a movie. We're not all Shepards.

In my experience how one lives their life is entirely up to them. Yes that doesn't mean that they can decide one day to become a neurosurgeon, but on the easier decisions, like killing people, it's all pretty much in their hands.

Modifié par Mike2640, 27 novembre 2010 - 06:54 .