44 réponses à ce sujet

[kaff33nd]

I would like to say, firstly, that my opinions here are concerning BioWare's writing of Miranda's dialogue, and not of Miranda herself. I feel that Miranda's true colours don't come through in-game as well as they could have. These are my own thoughts, and any apparent hostility towards her are merely the result of my inability to properly express myself.

Miranda Lawson. Young, beautiful, intelligent and completely scrambled emotionally.
My male Shepard approached Ms. Lawson on the cerberus station prior to the mission to Freedom's Progress with the intention of establishing a rapport with TIM's right hand woman, only to have her almost spit acid in his face for the attempt.  Without quoting verbatim, she basically told Shep that she wasn't interested in making friends, etc.. and she expressed concern for his motives. 

Here's where I start to get very annoyed with this character. Apparently Miranda is an excellent judge of peoples' motives, and that's from her own mouth.  However, as evidenced in her LM on Illium and again on the derelict collector ship, she was proven utterly inept at character assessment.  Niket would never betray her - ever. He is her closest friend and she is so good at judging peoples' motives that it must be true. But it wasn't true. Live and learn. But she didn't learn. The Illusive Man would never betray her? Really? He led her into a trap on the Collector ship! She even realises her mistake at the end by resigning from Cerberus. 

She tells Shepard that she was wrong in her assessment of him at the game's start and admits that she didn't think he was up to the task. Clearly she was mistaken. Mistaken.

Aside from this, what really fuels my ire is after her LM (with Jack already loyal), I use the paragon option to settle the dispute between them (not the blue choice but the top right one) and say that Jack is right. Then afterwards, despite the fact that Shepard had done more for her than anyone else (proved himself trustworthy, unlike her very best friend, Niket) she couldn't bring herself to  ever forgive him for siding with Jack. Seriously?

Let me get this straight, Miranda: I save your darling sister's life at great personal risk, earning your trust and admiration, but it all means nothing because I said Jack wasn't the one who had a problem?  You're really so petty and emotionally unstable that you'll let something this stupid endanger the mission, and thus, endangering Humanity and every other species in Citadel space?

This character, for these reasons always dies in the Collector base. I just can't bring myself to regain her loyalty (by feeding her a line about how she's more mature etc., than Jack).  In my opinion she really should get some professional help.

I really cannot stand this "woman" at all.

Modifié par kaff33nd, 25 novembre 2010 - 07:08 .

[kaff33nd]

ADDENDUM: I'm not upset with Miranda, perse, so much as with BioWare for being so sloppy with writing her dialogue. I believe that had the devs put as much effort into her as they did with, say, Mordin, it'd be an entirely different story. Thoughts?

[Domar]

Good psychological analysis, Kaff. But if you think about it a bit further, you gotta admit, these inconsistencies in Miranda's behaviour could be taken from real life. Intelligence is one thing, emotional constitution an other. And it's the latter that usually runs the former, not the other way around. We use our intelligence only so far as it benefits us emotionally. If we sense that our intelligence could lead us into things that hurt our emotions, we don't let our intelligence go in that direction. That's why intelligent people can do very stupid things sometimes.

One of the things with the ME series that has impressed me most is the script writing. The authors which Bioware have at their disposal are uncommonly good for the game business, that's for sure.

Modifié par Domar, 25 novembre 2010 - 02:43 .

[kaff33nd]

You may be right there, Domar. I suppose it reinforces the fact that we are all human. I think I just expected more from Miranda. No more than I do myself, though. You are also right in saying that BioWare are a cut above the industry in terms of dialogue and story. Still, she reminds me of the haughty Bastilla.... and I wanted a persona more akin to Carth Onasi. He was by far the most fully developed video game character I have ever seen. Also, my being an Aussie like Yvonne maybe a factor. Familiarity breeds contempt and all that. Perhaps I'm biased.

[Xilizhra]

I admit that I agree at least in part; her being an excellent judge of character is quite an informed attribute, and her entire attitude in the Jack fight is atrocious (so's Jack's, but she's clearly insane and not totally responsible for her own actions).

[Fiery Phoenix]

To be completely honest, the points you made, while literally true, are exactly the reason I admire Miranda's character. I think this makes her feel real and more than just another character. If you romance her (Paragon especially), you'll notice that Shepard grows to treat her as someone who's in genuine need for a significant other, for which reason she seems to gradually get more laid back as the romance develops. This doesn't happen if you don't romance her, though.

Overall, valid argument. I just wanted to voice my two cents anyway.

[Domar]

Who are Bastilla, Carth Onasi and Yvonne?

[kaff33nd]

Carth Onasi and Bastilla are characters from BioWare's epic Knights of the Old Republic, and Yvonne Strahowski is the actor who voices Miranda.



@FieryPhoenix7 - hmmm... I don't like to get involved romantically with my crew. Fraternisation rules are there for good reason.

[Xilizhra]

Cerberus doesn't have rules like that.

[kaff33nd]

No. But I do. My Shepard is still an Alliance officer, even if the Alliance have washed their hands of him.

[AntiChri5]

I think you are being a little hard on Miri, OP. I am certainly no fan of hers, but she doesn't deserve to die for being arrogant.

Jack's, but she's clearly insane

I take exception to this. On what do you base the judgement that Jack is insane?

[Ieldra]

I feel Miranda is absolutely justified in the way she reacts to Shepard siding with Miranda. Jack threatens her with death and startings throwing things around, and Shepard just ignores that? He just throws the trust they've been building back in her face? I can't see how anyone can seriously consider siding with Jack in that confrontation, in spite of the "you are a mistake" comment. The scene is not balanced. It's so stacked in favor of Miranda that siding with Jack appears incomprehensible to me.

As for endangering the mission, by losing Miranda's loyalty, you lose exactly nothing but her regard. Except that she can die after the mission is finished, where it doesn't matter any more. For the mission, at least. That's all. And of course the romance, but that's personal and should have no impact on the mission either.

Her being a "good judge of character" being almost constantly contradicted by the events in the game is annoying, yes. I put that down to bad writing and the necessities of storytelling. Probably they should've dropped that line. Anyway, perfect characters are boring, and I think it's right that the game shows that Miranda, while being more competent than other humans, is exactly not that. I think they shouldn't have used the "perfect" term for her in the first place, it can only fail in the end. It would've been better to stick a less problematic term like "enhanced"

Modifié par Ieldra2, 25 novembre 2010 - 03:51 .

[AntiChri5]

I cannot imagine siding with Miri in that fight.

[expanding panic]

No body is perfect so she missed judge some people's motives. They said she was good not perfect at reading people. No one is perfect. ANd I a agree with Ieldra2

[Zulu_DFA]

During the catfight, Miranda, thinking that Jack "is a child" throws a comment that she also "was a mistake". Just like that, in the fase of a very unstable child. What kind of a leader would do that? What's next? Airlock Jack? Then she gets angry at Shepard if he says what the unstable child needs to hear to calm down.



Miranda does have a lot of issues and not only the daddy ones. She makes a lot of misjudgements. And she joined Cerberus for the wrong reasons. But her mortal sin is that she goes into battle in her parade "uniform".

[kaff33nd]

Okay. Miranda doesn't 'deserve' to die just because I find her to be immature, emotionally (does anyone deserve death?), but we as players are privy to knowledge that Shepard and his crew are not: That certain crew members can die under very specific circumstances. All Shepard knows is that the entire mission could be a 1 way trip. As officer in charge of the mission it's his job to make sure the team is as prepared as possible for it, and that includes putting aside petty grievances in favour of achieving the objective. I guess my concern is that Miranda comes across as being very intelligent and professional, and these inconsistencies belie the fact that she is anything but proffessional. The reason I don't shed any tears over her death is not because I find her to be unprofessional, but because she is a pro-human zealot who is "obsessed with human dominance" and is almost as ruthless as TIM in forging Humanity's galactic supremacy. As far as her dying on the Collector base goes, Shepard could hardly be held responsible for failing to join the dots of cause and effect between the Jack vs Miranda episode and her ultimate demise. Could anyone here foresee that, realistically?



If there is one thing that excuses Jack in that fight, it's that she was TIM's choice for the mission. Not Shepard's. She was specifically chosen either because she is an extremely volotile biotic with severe psychological problems, or in spite of it. All Jack wanted was for Miranda to admit that what Cerberus did to her was wrong. Ethically. Also, the chair throwing was mid way through the disagreement. She didn't just march in and fling the first object she could find at Miranda... we don't know what was said at the start of it. Joker said "Commander, Jack and Miranda are in the middle of a, disagreement". In any case, Jack's overreacting doesn't excuse Miranda's overreacting. It was Miranda's own stubborn refusal to apologise to Jack that escalated that fight.



One last thing I'd like to reiterate: Siding with Jack is the paragon choice, thus the morally 'right' choice.

[syllogi]

kaff33nd wrote...
One last thing I'd like to reiterate: Siding with Jack is the paragon choice, thus the morally 'right' choice.

Jack started the confrontation, she should have known better.  This is an extremely important mission, and what was done on Pragia was done many years ago, and Miranda had nothing to do with it.  Venting at her will not change anything.

Miranda turned to Cerberus when she needed help escaping her father, and despite the fact that her father was giving Cerberus tons of money, they took her in, protected her, and gave her a meaningful career.  She obviously has a past with the Illusive Man, and she has probably heard, and believed, his excuses for Cerberus's actions in the past.  I don't blame her at all for her reaction to Jack, even if she should have taken the higher road and walked away...although that might have earned her nothing but getting hit in the back with something thrown at her by Jack.

My highly paragon character diffuses the situation, but my paragade always sides with Miranda.  I seriously don't see why you would give Jack more justification for her ridiculous behaviour.  Let her go sulk in the basement.

[Zulu_DFA]

kaff33nd wrote...

Siding with Jack is the paragon choice, thus the morally 'right' choice.

Seriously?

[kaff33nd]

Well, that's your choice TZ. And well thought out too. You still managed to affirm that Miranda "should have taken the higher road and walked away". Thing is, Jack's behavior was 100% predictable. Miranda, as intelligent as she is should have anticipated this. Still, this scenario is only 1 reason for this thread. The main point is that she is a poor judge of character.

[Cerberus Operative Ashley Williams]

kaff33nd wrote...

One last thing I'd like to reiterate: Siding with Jack is the paragon choice, thus the morally 'right' choice.

You made me spit coffee on my keyboard.

[kaff33nd]

Zulu_DFA wrote...

kaff33nd wrote...
Siding with Jack is the paragon choice, thus the morally 'right' choice.

Seriously?

Poor choice of words. It is the paragon choice though.

[philiposophy]

Do you get paragon points for siding with Jack?

[Ieldra]

kaff33nd wrote...
One last thing I'd like to reiterate: Siding with Jack is the paragon choice, thus the morally 'right' choice.

So you just follow the morality you think the game considers right without thinking for yourself?

[Zulu_DFA]

 (beaten to it!)

Modifié par Zulu_DFA, 25 novembre 2010 - 05:01 .

[kaff33nd]

Not sure if there are paragon points for that choice, actually... probably not, in fact.

Incidentally Ieldra2, this isn't about how I personally play the game, but how Miranda is presented to every player, regardless of the choices made. I'd love to see you move on from defending your favourite woman in the galaxy.