44 réponses à ce sujet

[Calla S]

You really are mistaking her being "petty" with the fact that she was sort of forced into something by an actual game mechanic. That was the "big thing" with ME2. Loyalty. You earn it, and you can also lose it if you don't have the paragon or renegade points to back up the brightly colored dialogue choices. If Miranda Lawson was a real woman, I sincerely doubt her decisions could be reduced to reacting to four different sentences.

She's not being petty. You're being punished by the game for not putting in the paragon or renegade points. This was a gameplay thing, not a characterization thing.

Besides that, I always side with Miranda. Even if I do have the paragon/renegade points necessary. Jack barging into her office being obnoxious and angry is the sort of behavior an "Alliance officer" shouldn't tolerate. Especially on such an important mission.

[kaff33nd]

I couldn't have said it better, Calla. Thankyou. By the way I just loaded an old save and no, there are no paragon points for siding with Jack.

[syllogi]

kaff33nd wrote...

Well, that's your choice TZ. And well thought out too. You still managed to affirm that Miranda "should have taken the higher road and walked away". Thing is, Jack's behavior was 100% predictable. Miranda, as intelligent as she is should have anticipated this. Still, this scenario is only 1 reason for this thread. The main point is that she is a poor judge of character.

Jack's behavior was predictable because she is a raw, open wound, and we know all about what her damage is and what makes her tick.  Miranda, on the other hand, only gives us hints of what happened with her father, and why Cerberus is important to her.  She may have finally snapped when provoked enough.  Why is it acceptable for Jack to act like a fallible human being, and for Shepard to have plenty of renegade interrupts in order to "act out", but on the one occasion when Miranda is directly attacked, she is expected to be "better" than that, or else she deserves to die?

And how does reacting to Jack's antics make her a poor judge of character?  She has believed in Cerberus because she saw what they did for her, and she felt like she was making a difference by working with them.  People make judgements by their experiences, and her experiences were all positive, and it was easy for her to believe TIM's excuses for any bad behavior...and Shepard, just like Miranda, lets TIM talk him into working for him.  Once again, why is Miranda held to a higher standard than your own character?

Modifié par TeenZombie, 25 novembre 2010 - 05:31 .

[Phaedon]

Jack just returned from a little trip from TIM's personally made hell, and a brain-washed cheerleader dismisses is it as 'going rogue'. Jack was also programmed to be aggressive by the same very nice doctors back on Pragia. Aren't we being a bit strict with her ? Miranda shouldn't have tried to excuse Cerberus at that point, even if she might be right.



Not that I am saying that OP isn't too harsh with Miranda anyway.

[kaff33nd]

[Phaedon]

kaff33nd wrote...

It took me some time to notice the joke. 

[Ieldra]

kaff33nd wrote...
Okay. Miranda doesn't 'deserve' to die just because I find her to be immature, emotionally (does anyone deserve death?), but we as players are privy to knowledge that Shepard and his crew are not: That certain crew members can die under very specific circumstances. All Shepard knows is that the entire mission could be a 1 way trip. As officer in charge of the mission it's his job to make sure the team is as prepared as possible for it, and that includes putting aside petty grievances in favour of achieving the objective. I guess my concern is that Miranda comes across as being very intelligent and professional, and these inconsistencies belie the fact that she is anything but proffessional.

So, if your commander on a suicide mission treats you unfairly, which might just mean he'll send you to your death because he doesn't like you, that is a petty grievance? Also, you might have noticed that she continues to do her job. She just goes back to keeping her distance just as she did at the start of the game, and limits her talks with you to what's needed for the mission. What more can you expect? I don't find that unprofessional. She hasn't any duty to like Shepard after that, only to do her job. She does that. 

The reason I don't shed any tears over her death is not because I find her to be unprofessional, but because she is a pro-human zealot who is "obsessed with human dominance" and is almost as ruthless as TIM in forging Humanity's galactic supremacy.

Did you actually listen to her dialogue? She is not a xenophobe, as evidenced by her complaints about xenophobes in Cerberus and how humanity can learn a lot from the asari. What exactly "advancement of humanity" means to her we don't know, but from that I can conclude it wouldn't include oppression of aliens. Political dominance, the wish to be top dog in the galaxy, isn't an evil goal in itself. You get that "obsessed with human dominance" from the Shadow Broker files, but he's not exactly unbiased. 

If there is one thing that excuses Jack in that fight, it's that she was TIM's choice for the mission. Not Shepard's. She was specifically chosen either because she is an extremely volotile biotic with severe psychological problems, or in spite of it. All Jack wanted was for Miranda to admit that what Cerberus did to her was wrong. Ethically.

Yes, and you totally do that - confront someone like Miranda in the middle of a mission to save the galaxy and demand she'll admit the organization she's been working for the last 20 years is evil? Just like that? 

Also, the chair throwing was mid way through the disagreement. She didn't just march in and fling the first object she could find at Miranda... we don't know what was said at the start of it. Joker said "Commander, Jack and Miranda are in the middle of a, disagreement". In any case, Jack's overreacting doesn't excuse Miranda's overreacting. It was Miranda's own stubborn refusal to apologise to Jack that escalated that fight.

The confrontation was in Miranda's room. That means Jack went in there, probably spoiling for a fight in a totally Jack-like manner.
Apart from that, what the hell does Miranda have to apologize for? She wasn't part of that cell, and there is actual evidence it was indeed a rogue cell (*). Sure it would have been the diplomatic thing to do, but Jack isn't owed an apology, not from Miranda. Miranda hasn't yet overcome her selective perception of Cerberus at that point, so it would have been out of character to give one as well. And someone like Miranda doesn't just give in to demands made in that confrontational way, that would've been even more out of character. This is not just a disagreement about some event, but a fight to establish a pecking order. I can only say in her position, I wouldn't haven given in even if I believed Jack was owed an apology.

(*) You can say that evidence is unconvincing considering everything else we know, but the plain fact is this: we suspect with some cause that TIM would be able to authorize what happened in the Teltin facility, but we don't have any evidence that he actually did. So you can't just dismiss the claim that this was a rogue cell.

So yes, Miranda shouldn't have used that line "You were a mistake". I neither like nor excuse that she did that, nor do I like that she has a selective perception in matters Cerberus. It is her character flaw that she has it. But that doesn't give Jack the right to demand anything from her, and even less in that confrontational manner, nor does it excuse it Shepard if he sides with Jack, ignoring her greater part in the fight. As a commander, you don't let compassion overrule fairness.

Modifié par Ieldra2, 25 novembre 2010 - 06:23 .

[AntiChri5]

Miranda refuses to admit to a truth in order to uphold her pride, pointlessly insulting and antagonising an already unstable subordinate for no good reason. This is conduct unbecoming an XO.

Miranda did not need to renounce Cerberus or personally apologise or kiss Jacks feet, all she had to do was acknowledge a simple truth (that Cerberus wronged Jack) and i would side with her.

Frankly, as XO it is her job to find a way to get along with Jack. She doesn't even try, instead refusing to admit to the truth and insulting her.

[Ieldra]

From Miranda's viewpoint, the truth is that Cerberus wasn't responsible. Why should she admit anything?
And by acting as confrontational as she did, Jack turned this from a disagreement about Cerberus into a fight to establish a pecking order. Miranda can't give in to that. Jack, of course, is probably unable to approach the subject in any other way. The fight was unavoidable.

As for getting along, it only takes one side to not get along. Jack has to do her part, too. Not that this excuses "You were a mistake".

Modifié par Ieldra2, 25 novembre 2010 - 06:32 .

[kaff33nd]

I don't disagree with you Ieldra2. I can see both sides of the coin. It's just that I, personally, find the character of Jack to be more fleshed-out and the dialogue better written. Playing Devil's advocate here, Miranda has gone through her own version of hell. She was raised as a thing, a carrier for her megalomaniacal father's genes. Constantly told she wasn't good enough, she started to believe that and now pushes herself as hard as her father ever did. She was neglected and starved of love or any kind of emotional nurturing. In a way she's the same as Jack. The difference being that Jack was overloaded with sensory input in the form of torture, whereas Miranda was starved of any positive reinforcement. I'd even go so far as to say that Miranda has her own version of psycosis.



In the real world neither would be on the Normandy in my opinion. That, or there would be more time devoted to working through these issues as a group. The point I've been trying to make, and obviously failed to make, is that her writers haven't managed to convey this emotional and mental complexity in what is arguably one of the more complex characters.



Either way, I'd rather discuss how Miranda's dialogue could be improved, rather than bickering with you over who is the better character. Everyone with eyes can see you prefer Miranda. My own favourite is Mordin (I don't really like Jack much).

[AntiChri5]

So that project started off rouge? At some point, it was sanctioned. I find it hard to believe Miranda thinks they were "rogue" the whole eight or so years they tormented Jack. It is a sinple truth that Cerberus intentionally ruined Jacks life.

Mirand could admit to this without denouncing Cerberus completely. She could simply say "Cerberus wronged you, but i wasn't part of that cell. I know what it is to be an experiment, and i would never have gone so far". If Jack continued the fight from there it would be impossible to defend her.

But Miri is the XO, she has to be trusted to issue orders in Shepards absence. Jack has to be able to trust this woman with her life. Clearly, when it comes to Jack she just isn't mature of professional enough. It is clear why. Jack represents something Miranda has been lying to herself about for years: that TIM and Cerberus are no different to her father.



It is also worth noting that Jack is 24 years old, while Miranda is 39.

[kaff33nd]

If Miranda had indeed said "Cerberus wronged you, but i wasn't part of that cell. I know what it is to be an experiment, and i would never have gone so far" as AntiChri5 suggested, and Jack had not backed down, I would have sided with Miranda every time.

[Ieldra]

kaff33nd wrote...
I don't disagree with you Ieldra2. I can see both sides of the coin. It's just that I, personally, find the character of Jack to be more fleshed-out and the dialogue better written. Playing Devil's advocate here, Miranda has gone through her own version of hell. She was raised as a thing, a carrier for her megalomaniacal father's genes. Constantly told she wasn't good enough, she started to believe that and now pushes herself as hard as her father ever did. She was neglected and starved of love or any kind of emotional nurturing. In a way she's the same as Jack. The difference being that Jack was overloaded with sensory input in the form of torture, whereas Miranda was starved of any positive reinforcement. I'd even go so far as to say that Miranda has her own version of psychosis.

I disagree that Jack is better written (in general), but I agree that Miranda should have been more mature in the confrontation, simply by the fact that she can be and Jack cannot by virtue of their histories. I only say that it's in-character that she wasn't, that the fact that she wasn't doesn't make her unprofessional in a general sense (see below), and that siding with Jack is not the most rational decision here. Bringing Miranda to admit that Cerberus is responsible for atrocities is like trying to convince someone their religion is wrong. You might actually succeed with a character as intelligent as Miranda, but it takes a little work and subtely. Being confrontational is a reliable way to make sure that it never happens. 

In the real world neither would be on the Normandy in my opinion. That, or there would be more time devoted to working through these issues as a group. The point I've been trying to make, and obviously failed to make, is that her writers haven't managed to convey this emotional and mental complexity in what is arguably one of the more complex characters.

I can only say that you sounded a lot more hostile in your OP. I agree with you that the subtlely required to handle the emotional complexity has sometimes eluded the writers. But it is situational. See as a counterexample the end of her loyalty mission. This is a perfect scene, there's everything in it: Miranda's secret wish to make contact, her fear of making emotional connections, and her fear that making contact will draw her sister into her own violent world, away from the normal life she wants for her. The VA is also perfect with that mix of hesitation and the wish to know her sister. Listen to her answer "I guess not" if you ask her if it's really a bad thing to let her sister know. 
One of the bigger problems is Miranda's informed abilities that she fails to show in the game. That's really annoying. I think she actually has that ability to judge people - with her extensive net of contacts and history of acting as some kind of spy she must have that - but only as long as no emotions are involved on her side. Touch family or her personal loyalties, and things become complicated.   

Either way, I'd rather discuss how Miranda's dialogue could be improved, rather than bickering with you over who is the better character. Everyone with eyes can see you prefer Miranda. My own favourite is Mordin (I don't really like Jack much).

There was a post on another forum where someone said how the conflict scene could've been improved. I'll see if I can find it.

Modifié par Ieldra2, 25 novembre 2010 - 07:10 .

[Ieldra]

kaff33nd wrote...
If Miranda had indeed said "Cerberus wronged you, but i wasn't part of that cell. I know what it is to be an experiment, and i would never have gone so far" as AntiChri5 suggested, and Jack had not backed down, I would have sided with Miranda every time.

Yes, but that would not have served the storytelling purposes. The writers clearly wanted a scene where no one was in the right and no one was reasonable. You could argue that Miranda was out of character there as an XO, but as I said, the topic was about her personal loyalties, touching her deepest convictions and almost two decades of her life. I don't like her line "You were a mistake", but I can forgive it, considering that Jack had just threatened to smear the wall with her.

To end the conflict I find the Renegade persuasion option the best solution. Shepard sounds like he's pissed off that his XO and his most powerful biotic act like children. I find that very fitting.

[kaff33nd]

Having nutted this out, I'm actually a lot more sympathetic to Miranda now... Damn you Ieldra2!!



I have also edited the OP to hopefully clear up my initial aggressiveness. Having said that, I still feel that Miranda's dialogue is oftentimes self-contradictory. Another example is how, when Shepard first speaks with her in her office, she says something like "I guess that's fair. I've spent the last 2 years finding out all there is to know about you." But then after the Jack vs Miranda scene (assuming I sided with Jack and later had enough paragon points to readdress the situation with Miranda) she says "Just when I think I've got you figured out, you surprise me again". It's small but still annoying to me.

[Xilizhra]

Altogether, this thread has reaffirmed my gladness that a sufficiently Paragon (or Renegade) Shepard doesn't have to get involved in bickering like this and can tell all feuding squadmates to stand down without favoritism.

[Elyvern]

kaff33nd wrote...

Having nutted this out, I'm actually a lot more sympathetic to Miranda now... Damn you Ieldra2!!

I have also edited the OP to hopefully clear up my initial aggressiveness. Having said that, I still feel that Miranda's dialogue is oftentimes self-contradictory. Another example is how, when Shepard first speaks with her in her office, she says something like "I guess that's fair. I've spent the last 2 years finding out all there is to know about you." But then after the Jack vs Miranda scene (assuming I sided with Jack and later had enough paragon points to readdress the situation with Miranda) she says "Just when I think I've got you figured out, you surprise me again". It's small but still annoying to me.

I don't see any contradictions here, since the first statement you quoted refers to a 'getting to know you" kind of conversation, and in that sense, yes, Miranda knows all there is to know about who Shepard is and what Shepard has done. And I'm actually glad that there are parts of Shepard that still surprises her. She could read the entire biography of Shepard and even rebuild his brain synapses to recreate the original personality (or maybe she didn't, that's why he can still surprise her, devil's advocating here), but when it all boils down, it's extremely hard to gauge a person's motivations and objectives. If you're annoyed by that, you could even go back to the fact that she says "it's your motivations that concern me" at Minuteman station. All that is soft tissue reasoning, the amalgamation of different parts of the brain working  isn't something that can be accurately predicted via a biological examination. Nothing wrong with that.

[kaff33nd]

It was actually the conversation with Miranda at Minuteman station that prompted that statement, Elyvern. "I wasn't asking for your resume". At first (Minuteman) she wasn't interested in getting to know Shepard, or having Shepard get to know her, as human beings. It was abruptly swept aside. And yet the very next one on one talk with her, she said it was "only fair" that he get to know her as a person. Shepards motivation seems to have been the topic of at least one conversation between Miranda and TIM, as evidenced by TIM's response to renegade Shepard's "point me at the reapers and I'll go nuts" line: "Miranda thought you'd be hesitant.... she's not usually wrong". So in the case of a paragon Shepard, Miranda had said something like "It's going to take a lot of pursuasion to get the commander to help us, being the do-gooder he is, and given his history with Cerberus". That's what I'm assuming Miranda's issue with Shepard was. An issue that went out the airlock immediately following the first recruitment mission.

EDIT: I take your meaning though, and it's given me another way to view the whole scenario. The problem is, why are we of differing opinions of what was meant at all? Better writing might have left no doubt. Maybe.

Modifié par kaff33nd, 25 novembre 2010 - 08:36 .

[Ieldra]

kaff33nd wrote...
It was actually the conversation with Miranda at Minuteman station that prompted that statement, Elyvern. "I wasn't asking for your resume". At first (Minuteman) she wasn't interested in getting to know Shepard, or having Shepard get to know her, as human beings. It was abruptly swept aside. And yet the very next one on one talk with her, she said it was "only fair" that he get to know her as a person.
Shepards motivation seems to have been the topic of at least one conversation between Miranda and TIM, as evidenced by TIM's response to renegade Shepard's "point me at the reapers and I'll go nuts" line: "Miranda thought you'd be hesitant.... she's not usually wrong". So in the case of a paragon Shepard, Miranda had said something like "It's going to take a lot of pursuasion to get the commander to help us, beingthe do-gooder he is, and given his history with Cerberus". That's what I'm assuming Miranda's issue with Shepard was. An issue that went out the airlock immediately following the first recruitment mission.

Ah, that. Miranda does open up to Shepard much too suddenly, you're not the only one to think that. I think that's caused by the limited number of conversations we have with her. It isn't nearly enough to show all the character development that goes on under the surface. There have to be some "getting to know" conversations before the loyalty mission can become a topic, so it's necessary to have her open up early.

Modifié par Ieldra2, 25 novembre 2010 - 08:37 .

[Amedyr]

Anyone else thought this was a Psych thread? (the series)

PS: not just because of the "Psych" word, there is a Maggie Lawson in the cast, for those who don't know the show)

Modifié par Amedyr, 25 novembre 2010 - 09:54 .