472 réponses à ce sujet

[Sueno]

Hi *waves*, I'm new to the world of DA and I'm wondering if any of the Alistair fans would care explain to me why they think he is so awesome. I went into DA thinking I would also end up being an Alistair fangirl but found him to be awkward. He is a well written character, and maybe this is what the ladies appreciate about him but I must admit I don't understand why females are drawn to him as a romance option. I tried to trudge through the HUGE Alistair appreciation thread but I couldn't find anything where there was a discussion of Alistair's characterization. In my opinion Alistair suffers from low self esteem, is quirky, awkward, and well, a wimp. I don't want my perception of him to be seen as a negative characterization. I believe Alistair is a great  character, but because of what I listed I don't understand why so many people have found him so romanceable. From the fanart I've seen people tend to focus on the romance aspect of his personality but very rarely do they highlight any of his other personality traits (the big ones being his bad sense of humor and how over emotional he is).

And how about that Landsmeet scene? It's almost like no matter what you do Alistair is dedicated to being unhappy (as an aside that whole scene was made of awesome sauce). If anything I would like for this to turn into a discussion of Alistair's strengths and weaknesses. I have no intentions of this being a 'bash Alistair' thread. I'm just really and truly curious about what part of his personality or what scene won females (or males) over.

I'm ready to get schooled.

[Rykoth]

As an Alistair fan, and as a guy I'll tell you why I think he's cool.

Because IMO, he is without a doubt, THE main character. Unless you play a human noble, he is the center of the story. If you are a human noble, you are the co-star, but it's Alistair IMO who gets top billing.



As an aspiring fantasy author, I'll tell you why I personally like him. He is a hero, who is both reluctant, and far too humble for his own good. Unless you harden him, he's pretty much a do gooder, hell, he doesn't want to be the king, but dammit, if you make him king, he turns out to be a great one. Unless you make Anora queen and let a certain Teyrn live, Alistair goes through IMO, an interesting hero's journey.



He's definitely awkward, which is IMO, much neater then say, a stereotype masculine brawny hero. It makes him IMO, a better man, and a better hero at the end.



I can't answer about the romance-able thing. I made my female noble marry him, but that was because it made sense for that character. But oddly enough, even my **** characters end up befriending him, if anything for the humor and entertainment value.

[Sueno]

I had believed Alistair didn't want to be king until the landsmeet and if you choose to not kill Loghain and put Anora on the throne he says he wanted to be king but didn't think he ever deserved to be so happy (it's a possibility I read wrong, and if so feel free to correct me). So, there we have a blantent example of his low self-esteem and also him admitting becoming king was something he acutally wanted. I loved this about Alistair, but I don't understand how learning this about him wouldn't be a detractor.

[Sueno]

Oops, sorry, this was a double post

Modifié par Sueno, 26 novembre 2010 - 12:23 .

[mousestalker]

He was my LI for my first character when he 1. dumped me and then 2. committed suicide by archdemon.



Zevran is much much better.

[Sueno]

Rykoth wrote...

As an aspiring fantasy author, I'll tell you why I personally like him. He is a hero, who is both reluctant, and far too humble for his own good. Unless you harden him, he's pretty much a do gooder, hell, he doesn't want to be the king, but dammit, if you make him king, he turns out to be a great one. Unless you make Anora queen and let a certain Teyrn live, Alistair goes through IMO, an interesting hero's journey.

I don't know, Alistair's plot didn't seem very unique or unusual to me. I feel like Alistair was the "princess" archtype. I kept thinking about Sailor Moon as I played through and how she was an awkward doopy teen but then had the role of princess thrust upon her. This is very typical in magical girl storylines. It just seemed to me in DA they just switched the gender and we get Alistair. 

[Lord_Anthonior]

Sueno wrote...

Hi *waves*, I'm new to the world of DA and I'm wondering if any of the Alistair fans would care explain to me why they think he is so awesome. I went into DA thinking I would also end up being an Alistair fangirl but found him to be awkward. He is a well written character, and maybe this is what the ladies appreciate about him but I must admit I don't understand why females are drawn to him as a romance option. I tried to trudge through the HUGE Alistair appreciation thread but I couldn't find anything where there was a discussion of Alistair's characterization. In my opinion Alistair suffers from low self esteem, is quirky, awkward, and well, a wimp. I don't want my perception of him to be seen as a negative characterization. I believe Alistair is a great  character, but because of what I listed I don't understand why so many people have found him so romanceable. From the fanart I've seen people tend to focus on the romance aspect of his personality but very rarely do they highlight any of his other personality traits (the big ones being his bad sense of humor and how over emotional he is).

And how about that Landsmeet scene? It's almost like no matter what you do Alistair is dedicated to being unhappy (as an aside that whole scene was made of awesome sauce). If anything I would like for this to turn into a discussion of Alistair's strengths and weaknesses. I have no intentions of this being a 'bash Alistair' thread. I'm just really and truly curious about what part of his personality or what scene won females (or males) over.

I'm ready to get schooled.

Wow, the first female player to mention that about alistair, the analisis of his character and personality and the wondering as to why other female players find him so romanceable, its a good surprise to actually want to go and seek the reasons.

Personally for the traits you mentioned I don't like alistair but that's obviously a personal opinion, as well as the consideration that the center character of the story is not alistair, is the Warden of any origin (and from the party) then Morrigan since her story and participation is not over compared to the rest of the characters who hasn't been any mention of their appereance and participation in the stories to come regarding the influence in the world of Dragon Age (as far as I know).

As a guy I don't find him very cool, the story takes place in a time of war and among grown ups, and he goes whinning or complaining about things even at the joining of the rest of the characters who are there to help in the quest and still questioning their help. The least that I like is that even of his heritage for royalty he doesn't even want to take the responsability in a time where the nation is in dire need of a leader, and in order to get him to complain the less is by going about and hardening a grown man, where in such times and sort of  "medieval" culture men that age shouldn't have such mentality.

This brings me to agree what you said about the low self steem and not standing up by himself wich Oghren, Zevran and Sten does. Zevran will look up for himself to the point of betraying the Warden when facing Talisin, Sten at Heaven, Leliana and Wynne at the altar of the ashes, Morrigan if Flemeth is not killed, but alistair...he may yell about Isolde or Connor but he can be easily shut up or persuaded to calm down.

I can't answer about the romanceable part, that's for the ladies to share their point of views, but as a friend and entertainment value I found Ogrhen and Zevran's banters funnier.

I suppose the reason of why he has low self steem was because he had no father, and the other man in a father figure sent him to the chantry, nowhere to learn about self confidence, leadership, maturity and responsabilities. He was either looked down by noble children or look in disdain by common ones, I think that gave him the trauma that he was worthless, at least that could be an option I guess.

Anyway, just wanted to share an opinion and observation since I'm an all and only Morriganian and its obvious to say that to have such threads shows what a great work was done in developing the characters for the difference of opinions.

[Tigress M]

As a woman who's had almost all of her PC's romance him throughout countless playthroughs, let me try to explain my attraction to him.

Alistair is broken. This is also true of the other LI's, but if you're like me and prefer hetrosexual relationships, you discover Alistair's "brokenness" much earlier than you do Zevran's. And I don't believe I'm alone in stating that, as a woman, I'm driven to try and fix that which I find broken.

He has had such a terrible upbringing, which you can learn relatively early on in the game, and yet instead of becoming bitter and withdrawn, he has somehow managed to retain his goofy humor and kind heartedness. To me, those are very attractive traits -- someone who's been dealt a terrible hand and yet refuses to give up or let it bring him down.

Alistair needs the Warden. Need is a powerful thing, and that we're given the opportunity to "be there" for him and help him grow, is again, very attractive to me.

But the biggest reason I find myself loving Alistair so much is that he is very "human". He HAS problems, he IS insecure, and he DOESN'T have all the answers. And last, but not least, he IS willing to give his trust, and his heart, to the Warden -- and in his words, that is a "rare and wonderful" gift.

Now, to be absolutely fair, a romance with Zevren turns out to fulfill some of these very same "needs" for players in that he also has needs and is also very seriously broken. In fact, if you can get far enough in the romance with Zev, you'll find out just how much more difficult it is for him to lay his trust and heart into your Warden's hands.

So, truthfully, I think it just comes down to personal preferences. Do you enjoy "good guys" or "bad boys"? Neither is truly one or the other, as you'll learn if you get to close enough to both of them, but on the surface, that's what you're faced with. And for me, I prefer knight's in shining armor, and so, my Warden's hearts are usually drawn towards Alistair.

Modifié par Tigress M, 26 novembre 2010 - 01:41 .

[Shadow of Light Dragon]

(Personal opinions, of course)

Alistair's strengths:
A good heart
Loyal
Brave
Generally optimistic

Alistair's weaknesses:
Can be 'good' to a fault, where he can be taken advantage of
Can be blinded by his ideals/schooling of what is Right and Wrong
Low self-esteem
Not always the brightest candle in the Chantry

I dunno. I liked that he wasn't the typical stoic, confident male hero. I liked that he got emotional about the loss of the only family he thought he had. I liked that he got angry over Loghain being a Grey Warden, and that he could get mad enough over it to leave. :/ I *didn't* like the hardening concept, and wish there was a way of making him a stronger person (or at least less naive) without making him a *harder* person, if that makes sense.

I enjoyed his humour, appreciated his moral compass (most of the time), and liked his self-conscious approach for the romance. He might not be the most mature of men, but it worked for my first character.

(Edit: I'm not a fangirl (they are scary >.>), but I have a soft spot for most of the characters for various reasons

Modifié par Shadow of Light Dragon, 26 novembre 2010 - 01:49 .

[Sueno]

I want to thank you guys for replying because it's really helping me to understand why I am not perceiving Alistrair in the same way. For example, Tigress M you stated "as a woman, I'm driven to try and fix that which I find broken"  I'm not like this. I knew Alistair was "broken" basically as soon as I met him. One of the key giveaways is how he had to make a joke over seroius matters which had affected him. It remined me of a few overweight females I had known who would make fun of themsevles before anyone else could. They had thought by drawing attention to themselves it would help make them seem as if they weren't self-concious but it acutally had the opposite effect. So when Alistair was cracking all his jokes I knew he had serious problems with himself. However, I wasn't drawn to help him fix them because I do not believe someone can change a person.

Tigress M, you also wrote about being needed. This is a very typcial romance troupe and I know it's successful for a reason. Who doesn't want to feel as if they are needed? This could be a key reason why my warden didn't fall for Alistair. She didn't need to be needed. I played her as a self-obessessed teen and she pretty much felt everyone needed her (and to some extent they did).

I also don't think Alistair was dealt a very harsh hand in life. In comparison to his sister who lost her mother, wasn't able to see her after she passed, didn't know anything about her brother, and had to raise her children on her own, Alistair's life seems rather comfortable. I also wasn't very keen to how responded to his sister. He came there with unrealistic preconceptions of how he wanted her life to be. I can understand having the wind knocked out of him when he learns the truth but he didn't seem to be empathitic. He does what I beleive is classic Alistair and turns himself into the victim.

@Shadow of Light Dragon You wrote you liked how he wasn't the typical stoic hero and one of the reasons I like Bioware games is they don't tend to use this troupe. In my opinion one of the best romances Bioware ever penned was the Carth and Revan one.

I also liked that Alistair walked out on the landsmeet when you choose to make Loghain a gray warden because it was very much in character for him to do so. Alistair is emotional and often times bases his decisions on how he feels at the moment. But I'm guessing from what I'm reading this is what females like about Alistair, the fact that he is over emotional.

@Lord_Anthonior your analysis of Alistair seems to be the opposite of Rykoth's which makes me wonder about the men and their views on Alistair. Did the majority like or dislike the guy and why?

[errant_knight]

Sueno wrote...

I had believed Alistair didn't want to be king until the landsmeet and if you choose to not kill Loghain and put Anora on the throne he says he wanted to be king but didn't think he ever deserved to be so happy (it's a possibility I read wrong, and if so feel free to correct me). So, there we have a blantent example of his low self-esteem and also him admitting becoming king was something he acutally wanted. I loved this about Alistair, but I don't understand how learning this about him wouldn't be a detractor.

It sounds like you didn't harden him, which makes a big difference. 'Hardening' is a misnomer, as it implies that he becomes callous. He doesn't. His values remain unchanged, he's still a funny, likable guy, but he's more willing to stand up for himself and what he wants. He's been told his whole life that he's not worth much, and your character can convince him otherwise. It's entirely up to you whether he gains self esteem or not.

Whether one finds Zevran more appealling is entirely a matter of taste. Some find him so, some don't, but I don't think it will be productive to name one as 'better.' That always ends with someone losing an eye. They're different.

The other thing about Alistair, si that while he can lack confidence in some ways, he's very confident in others, and for someone inexperienced in love, and with his issues, can be surprisingly bold. You're always given the impression that there's a confident person underneath it all that's who he would have been if he's been given the same chances as his brother.

Alistair's story doesn't come from anime. 'The Hero's Journey' is a far older archetype than that, and a huge number of epic sagas from history, as well as modern stories come from it. 'The Odessey' and 'Star Wars' are both hero's journey stories.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Monomyth

Modifié par errant_knight, 26 novembre 2010 - 03:58 .

[tuppence95]

Sueno wrote...

I also don't think Alistair was dealt a very harsh hand in life. In comparison to his sister who lost her mother, wasn't able to see her after she passed, didn't know anything about her brother, and had to raise her children on her own, Alistair's life seems rather comfortable. I also wasn't very keen to how responded to his sister. He came there with unrealistic preconceptions of how he wanted her life to be. I can understand having the wind knocked out of him when he learns the truth but he didn't seem to be empathitic. He does what I beleive is classic Alistair and turns himself into the victim.

I guess it's a matter of opinion, but I don't agree that his life seemed rather comfortable.  Since his childhood he was purposely taught that he was worth nothing.  No one cared for him.  He was adopted by a wealthy and powerful man (Eamon) and then made to sleep with the dogs in hay in the stables.  Every bit of self-confidence was figuratively beaten out of him.  Then to make sure he would never be a threat to the throne, he was placed in the chantry were his future was to become a mindless lyrium addicted templar.  At least Goldana did have a family and a pretty nice home in Denerim.

And like Tigress said, he still managed to hold on to his kind heart and funny outlook on life.  If you harden him, he starts standing up for himself.  He never wanted the power of the throne, but he begins to see the good he might do as king.

I know there's a lot of disagreement on this subject, but I don't believe that Goldana is even really Alistair's sister.  I think that was just one more ploy to cover up his heritage, to keep people from finding out that Maric bore a child with a woman who was a mage, an elf and a Grey Warden.  I really thought when Fiona handed the baby over to Maric at the end of The Calling and Maric saw his round ears and Duncan swore that he would watch out for him, that the baby was Alistair.  

[Sarah1281]

Unless you harden him, he's pretty much a do gooder, hell, he doesn't want to be the king, but dammit, if you make him king, he turns out to be a great one.

Not necessarily.



Unhardened Alistair alone: In the months that followed his coronation, Alistair proved to be a popular king... if largely unwilling to involve himself in matters of governing. He traveled often, making appearances in towns throughout Ferelden to the great delight of the commoners. They referred to him as a king with the "common touch," even if a few knew it was a simple aversion to life at court.



Unhardened Alistair with you as chancellor: <FirstName/>, as Alistair's chancellor, was the face most often seen at court. In truth, the chancellor ruled the nation, and did so with King Alistair's blessing. Whenever the chancellor left Denerim on personal affairs, the business of the court effectively came to a standstill.



Unhardened Alistair with Anora: In the months that followed their wedding, Alistair and Anora fell into the routine of ruling Ferelden. Anora was a skilled governor, adept at matters of court and more than willing to spend her time judging matters of law from the throne... and Alistair was quite happy to let her do so. He traveled frequently, making personal appearances that delighted commoners to no end.



Hardened Alistair alone: In the months that followed his coronation, Alistair surprised many by studying the art of governance and doing his best to rule the kingdom with a fair and even hand. He proved quite popular with the people, his humor and easy grace winning them over as much as his willingness to sneak out of the castle and mingle in the lower-class taverns on occasion.



Hardened Alistair with you as chancellor: <FirstName/>, as Alistair's chancellor, was a regular face at court--at least for a time. Alistair deferred to his advisor's judgment on most matters, and when the king traveled away from the capital, as he did often, he was more than willing to leave the throne entirely in <FirstName/>'s hands.



Hardened Alistair with Anora: In the months that followed their wedding, Alistair and Anora proved themselves a surprisingly effective pair. Alistair spent a great deal of time at court, showing willingness to learn the art of governing from Anora and often deferring to her judgment--and no one was more surprised by this than Anora herself. The two of them made numerous outings into Denerim and the other settlements in Ferelden, supervising the reconstruction process and greeting their subjects personally, much to the commoners' enthusiastic approval. Many said the chaos of the civil war and Landsmeet were worth it for delivering such beloved monarchs.



I will agree that Alistair can be a capable king but unless you harden him, he won't be. He'll leave all the actual ruling to someone else (maybe he doesn't feel that he's capable of doing it as well as his chancellor - Eamon or you - or wife could?) and just go out and see the people. As a hardened king, he will still listen to and take advice from his chancellor and/or wife but he won't be so dependent on them and though he'll still spend time with the people, he will have less time to do so as he's actually doing his real job of ruling.

[Sueno]

errant_knight wrote...

Sueno wrote...

I had believed Alistair didn't want to be king until the landsmeet and if you choose to not kill Loghain and put Anora on the throne he says he wanted to be king but didn't think he ever deserved to be so happy (it's a possibility I read wrong, and if so feel free to correct me). So, there we have a blantent example of his low self-esteem and also him admitting becoming king was something he acutally wanted. I loved this about Alistair, but I don't understand how learning this about him wouldn't be a detractor.

It sounds like you didn't harden him, which makes a big difference. 'Hardening' is a misnomer, as it implies that he becomes callous. He doesn't. His values remain unchanged, he's still a funny, likable guy, but he's more willing to stand up for himself and what he wants. He's been told his whole life that he's not worth much, and your character can convince him otherwise. It's entirely up to you whether he gains self esteem or not.

Whether one finds Zevran more appealling is entirely a matter of taste. Some find him so, some don't, but I don't think it will be productive to name one as 'better.' That always ends with someone losing an eye. They're different.

I'm pretty sure I hardened him because I played through the landsmeet again just to choose the option where Alistair can be king and have my warden rule by his side. From what I've read this option only comes up if you've hardened Alistair. I do not think the scene protrayed Alistair as a new man with a new sense of belief in himself, as I stated before he is very emotional throughout the scene. His whole reason to step up and become king is becasue the grey warden refused to kill Loghain. This is not a very rational reason to become king, but because Alistair is an emotional person he acts before he thinks anything through.

[tuppence95]

One more thing about Alistair's reaction after meeting his sister ...

I think there was more going on there than just a lack of empathy.  It seems like Alistair's main driving force is family.  It's what he dreams of for himself.  He never had anyone who cared for him until Duncan brought him into the wardens, and for 6 months, he thought he had finally found his home.  Then that was suddenly taken away from him in the harshest way.  So yes, he had very unrealistic expectations about meeting his sister.  He had put all his hopes on the family thing again.  

Re: the hardening.  I believe the "rule by his side" option will only come up if you have a high enough coercion?  I'm not sure that comes from hardening.  You get the hardening option immediately after he leaves his sister's home and you tell him everyone is out for themselves, and he needs to learn to stand up for himself.

[errant_knight]

One thing about the idea that Alistair is 'broken' (a phrase that I don't care for).... If Alistair is broken, then so are all the love interests. Each one has been profoundly affected by their past in negative ways, and need the warden to move beyond their experiences. Alistair's insecurity is arguably the least of their problems.

The ability to make yourself queen has nothing to bo with hardening.
 
If you got the 'never deserved to be so happy' line, you didn't harden him. That only comes up when unhardened Alistair is betrayed (yes, I know, some people don't see it as betrayal, but Alistair does) by the woman he loves. He will always be very angry if you spare the man he believes is a traitor who killed the king, and destroyed the Grey Wardens, demeaning the wardens in the process (in his view), but he says slightly different things when hardened.

Modifié par errant_knight, 26 novembre 2010 - 04:19 .

[Sarah1281]

Re: the hardening. I believe the "rule by his side" option will only come up if you have a high enough coercion? I'm not sure that comes from hardening. You get the hardening option immediately after he leaves his sister's home and you tell him everyone is out for themselves, and he needs to learn to stand up for himself.

I'm pretty sure that ruling by his side appears as an option if you are female no matter what origin you are, what approval you have, or how much coercion just like you always have the option as a male to say that you're ruling by Anora. It's just that unless you are a HN and have coercion (unless Alistair is in love with you or you convinced Anora beforehand which, again, requires coercion) then you will be turned down.

[Tigress M]

Sueno wrote...
I also don't think Alistair was dealt a very harsh hand in life. 

First, I understand where you're coming from in not feeling the same way I do about fixing broken people and the desire to be needed.  Therefore, I'll leave those ideas lie as I believe, while we don't agree, that we both understand the "other" side.  

With that in mind, let me address the comment I've quote above, as I believe it could benefit from further discussion.

We get a few glimpses of Alistair's life prior to his becoming a Grey Warden.  For the first ten years of his life he was raised by Arl Eamon.  Now while on the surface, this sounds like a comfortable arrangement for a bastard, let's examine the details of this situation that we learn throughout conversations with him.
1.  He was living in a household where the woman of the house seems to have despised his very presence, most likely due to the rumors that he might be the Arl's son.  So, his "mother" had no love for him.
2.  His position in the house, while tolerated for a few years, was by no means, ideal.  In fact, we find out that while in Denerim, he was housed in the kennels with the dogs.  Perhaps that's better than Goldanna's being sent away, but I don't believe that and besides, he WAS eventually sent away...
3. ... to the Chantry at the age of 10, simply because his "mother" couldn't handle having him in her home.
4.  And through all of this he's had it instilled in him that he's a nobody, a commoner, with no rights whatsoever, just in case he should, heaven forbid, think himself worthy of anything, thanks to his bloodline.  

Then, after years of living with the feeling of being a burden, and with receiving little or no love, he is spotted by Duncan and removed from the Chantry, a place he never felt comfortable.  Only to have this man, who was probably the first person in his life that ever showed any true care for him, killed by what Alistair believes was a betrayal of Loghain (NOT arguing whether or not it really was a betrayal or just good soldiering, simply stating that this is how Alistair views it).  

In my book, that's a very harsh life.  Harsher than other's?  Perhaps not, but it was absolutely no cake walk.  And yet, UNLIKE Goldanna, he is NOT bitter and still manages to find the good in the world around him.  

[Sueno]

@errant_knight I did not state that Alistair's characterization came from anime but he reminded me of the princess archtype I've grown used to from reading a bunch of shoujo and romance novels. I have to disagree with him being the hero archtype. He may share some character traits but--in my opinion--not enough to label him as such.

@Sarah1281 Thansk for the list! I wasn't sure what the difference was between the hardened and unhardened Alistair. I had no idea it was so varied.

@Tgail73 Ah, okay. I had read the option only came up if Alister was hardened.

[Tigress M]

errant_knight wrote...

One thing about the idea that Alistair is 'broken' (a phrase that I don't care for).... If Alistair is broken, then so are all the love interests. Each one has been profoundly affected by their past in negative ways, and need the warden to move beyond their experiences. Alistair's insecurity is arguably the least of their problems.

Yeah, I'm not crazy about the term "broken" either but I figured that would get the point across most quickly.  And yes, exactly as I said, in that regard, all the LI's are the same -- they're all in need of someone to help them overcome their own personal demons.  

[errant_knight]

Sueno wrote...

@errant_knight I did not state that Alistair's characterization came from anime but he reminded me of the princess archtype I've grown used to from reading a bunch of shoujo and romance novels. I have to disagree with him being the hero archtype. He may share some character traits but--in my opinion--not enough to label him as such.

@Sarah1281 Thansk for the list! I wasn't sure what the difference was between the hardened and unhardened Alistair. I had no idea it was so varied.

@Tgail73 Ah, okay. I had read the option only came up if Alister was hardened.

I'm not the only one who sees this. The hero's journey is frequently referenced regarding Alistair. Personally, I think he fits the archetype to a tee, so.... In what way don't you think he fits?

[errant_knight]

Tigress M wrote...

errant_knight wrote...

One thing about the idea that Alistair is 'broken' (a phrase that I don't care for).... If Alistair is broken, then so are all the love interests. Each one has been profoundly affected by their past in negative ways, and need the warden to move beyond their experiences. Alistair's insecurity is arguably the least of their problems.

Yeah, I'm not crazy about the term "broken" either but I figured that would get the point across most quickly.  And yes, exactly as I said, in that regard, all the LI's are the same -- they're all in need of someone to help them overcome their own personal demons.  

Yeah, I've used it too, for the same reason. It's practically an internet standard across fandoms, isn't it?