472 réponses à ce sujet

[Sarah1281]

True enough. But I would have thought that if it were a malign influence then it would have shown earlier in her life? Perhaps it's a benevolent desire spirit living vicariously through the kindred spirit it sees in Wynne?

It didn't actually possess her until a few minutes/hours before you meet her again at the tower after she died, though. And I certainly found her less annoying and more reasonable at Ostagar when you see her pre-possession so I think it changed her.

[Giggles_Manically]

Sarah1281 wrote...

True enough. But I would have thought that if it were a malign influence then it would have shown earlier in her life? Perhaps it's a benevolent desire spirit living vicariously through the kindred spirit it sees in Wynne?

It didn't actually possess her until a few minutes/hours before you meet her again at the tower after she died, though. And I certainly found her less annoying and more reasonable at Ostagar when you see her pre-possession so I think it changed her.

Or not.
Ines in Awakening says that Wynne was always preachy and trying to make people do what she wanted.
And that how could anyone not love Wynne, the fade shines out her bum even.

[Sarah1281]

Yeah, I got that conversation too, you know. It was there in the Fade and she encountered it while in the Fade. It did not power her body until she died.

[Ryzaki]

Ah. Alistair. One of my favorite characters in DA. I have to say it's for a combination of reasons but mostly because his (in a sense) innocence and naiveness makes me want to protect him.



I can't even harden him anymore. Gah. Anora finally got the throne in my games. (Though I don't have to hear her speech. Bug?)

[Gilsa]

Sarah1281 wrote...

 Non-metagaming, there are a few I can list off the top of my head that Alistair knows about as well as you do. Loghain was a big hero before this started, executing him would be done in front of his daughter, Riordan wants you to spare him, Loghain surrendered...it doesn't really matter if you find these or any other compelling reasons to spare him. The point is, if you chose not to kill him because, say, Riordan told you not to and he's the senior Warden then Alistair was right there to see that. He has the same information you do and Kaidan/Ashley really don't. I also find it a bit more extreme to expect someone to quit their job to follow you when they lack the information you do (and Jacob doesn't quit because he believes in Cerberus, he quits because he doesn't feel he can make a difference in the Alliance which is not a belief espoused by Kaidan or Ashlesy) than to just NOT leave when you do something.

Riordan did not reveal anything necessary or need-to-know at the time when there were compelling reasons not to trust Loghain. Alistair doesn't know what it takes to kill the archdemon. We, as wardens, do not know what the dark ritual is for and Morrigan does not give compelling reasons to agree with her other than emotional ones. Riordian did not offer any information to counter Alistair's emotions at Landsmeet.

If I hold Alistair up to a higher standard than the other party members then it is because, unlike them, Alistair is actually a Grey Warden and I feel that that is more of an obligation to end the Blight than an assassin with nowhere else to go or or a mage following you because her mother told her to (and she wants an OGB). I also find it very bizarre that Alistair himself seems to come to regret his decision and yet players insist that he either did the right thing or his choice was in some way positive.

Grey Wardens are full of thieves and murderers and people who got conscripted against their will. Anders left at the end of Awakening while still being a Grey Warden, but he doesn't get crucified for it the way Alistair does.

Edit: Fixed broken formatting.

Modifié par Gilsa, 28 novembre 2010 - 03:52 .

[KnightofPhoenix]

Gilsa wrote...

Anders left at the end of Awakening while still being a Grey Warden, but he doesn't get crucified for it the way Alistair does.

He did not leave when there was a Blight and only left when the Architect / Mother threat was delt with.
So it's different.

[Reika]

What KoP said. But Anders also has the potential to come back depending on where his approval was. Since I usually ended up with max approval with Anders, Justice and Nate without trying, I didn't realize until reading the Wiki that Anders might leave the Wardens permanently.



I still what Alistair does at the Landsmeet as a betrayal, but to be honest it really is something I could see myself doing in a similar situation. Emotions have a way of riding a person.

[Sarah1281]

Riordan did not reveal anything necessary or need-to-know at the time when there were compelling reasons not to trust Loghain. Alistair doesn't know what it takes to kill the archdemon. We, as wardens, do not know what the dark ritual is for and Morrigan does not give compelling reasons to agree with her other than emotional ones. Riordian did not offer any information to counter Alistair's emotions at Landsmeet.

And I mentioned that there were non-metagaming reasons and did not list the clearly metagaming information about killing the Archdemon and the dark ritual. The reasons given are ones Alistair can also see even though he does not find them enough and you may or may not find them enough. The point is that, unlike with Kaidan/Ashley on Horizen, Alistair has the same information that you do at the Landsmeet not whether his choice was valid.

Grey Wardens are full of thieves and murderers and people who got conscripted against their will. Anders left at the end of Awakening while still being a Grey Warden, but he doesn't get crucified for it the way Alistair does.

What does GWs not being paragons of virtue have to do with it? The GW take anyone as long as they are willing to fight darkspawn and, more importantly, deal with the bloody Blight when it's occuring. The issue isn't that Alistair isn't a saint. The issue is that he leaves during a Blight. I already said that if Alistair had left the order but stayed to fight the Blight I wouldn't care. If Alistair had stayed with the order to fight the Blight and then ditched it afterwards, that would have been fine. If Anders had been a Warden during the Blight and ran off I would have just as big a problem with that as I do with Alistair leaving during the Blight. Anders leaves AFTER the Blight and so it doesn't matter. It's not favoritism or holding Alistair to a higher standard than any other Warden during the Blight. No one complains when Alistair leaves the GWs after the Blight ends in certain epilogue slides, do they?



If Zevran, Oghren, Sten, Morrigan, Wynne, Loghain, Leliana, Dog, Shale, Nathaniel, Sigrun, Velanna, Justice or any other NPC had been Wardens during the Blight and tried to leave for whatever reason, I would be just as disgusted by this as I am by Alistair's actions. It's not because it's Alistair that I have a problem with him walking out during the Blight. It's the action of walking out during the Blight for WHATEVER reason that I have a problem with.

[Ryzaki]

Ah yes leaving Fereldan when Loghain was recruited. I see why people get irritated about that, while I frankly don't really mind it (everyone has a line that you shouldn't cross and that was Alistair's hell the guy warns you before hand) it is betraying his Warden vows to do whatever it takes to stop the blight.

Whatever it takes would include working with someone he'd rather see dead.

Though frankly I judge him the same way I judge the others for ditching you when you do something they don't agree with. As long as I understand the reason I'm a pretty "meh". Person.

Though I do not believe he's betraying Fereldan. Just the Wardens.

And yes I can see him regretting that decision. Might factor into why he drinks.

Modifié par Ryzaki, 28 novembre 2010 - 04:17 .

[Ryzaki]

^Why?



That said I only gave her the throne because my PC was leaving for travel.

[Ryzaki]

Ah. Yeah. Ser Cautherine's convient arrival is what made it so hard for me to make her queen in the first place. But I see it as if there's a rebellion and the change Morrigan prophecies ends up with the castle in disarray at least it'll be her head on the chopping block and not my PC's/Alistair's.



Speaking of which I have to redo my canon Queen Cousland now. She no longer wants that throne.

[Sarah1281]

Glaucon wrote...

Oh and never mind her slaughtered husband, oh no, let's put a statue up to daddy. yuk.

Well, let's compare them. Loghain would get a statue for being the Hero of River Dane and serving as a trusted friend and general to Maric for twenty-five years as well as anything he did under Cailan's rule as well as (if the statue is popular) ending a Blight.

Cailan...died because he wouldn't listen to everyone telling him not to be stupid and fight on the front lines.

Why should Cailan have been the one with the statue? 

[Reika]

Even not knowing much about DA in my first playthrough, I couldn't believe my ears with Cailan going on about glory and boring strategy. My first thought was "Oh, he's going to have one messy end." So I can't see a statue to him, except to use as an example to kids on what not to do...

And I honestly thought my eyes had finally started going when I first looked at Alistair and thought he was a recolored Cailan with a different hairstyle. Well, at least the first conversation at Redcliffe reassured me on that he was meant to look like Cailan.

Modifié par Reika, 28 novembre 2010 - 05:19 .

[Sarah1281]

Glaucon wrote...

Sarah1281 wrote...

Glaucon wrote...

Oh and never mind her slaughtered husband, oh no, let's put a statue up to daddy. yuk.

Well, let's compare them. Loghain would get a statue for being the Hero of River Dane and serving as a trusted friend and general to Maric for twenty-five years as well as anything he did under Cailan's rule as well as (if the statue is popular) ending a Blight.

Cailan...died because he wouldn't listen to everyone telling him not to be stupid and fight on the front lines.

Why should Cailan have been the one with the statue? 

I didn't intend to imply that Cailan should have had a statue too.  But I do think that he should have led his forces in the battle at Ostegar.  We lead from the front to set an example and all that jazz.  And it's not so much the erecting of the statue to Loghain, it's the daily episodes of her prostrating herself upon it.  Really quite disturbing to me.  But you know Sarah128, you won't be able to change my mind on this one and I accept that I'm wrong to take that stance but I can live with that. 

It's actually Sarah1281, not Sarah128. I feel it's a bad idea for leaders to personally be in front of their troops as it's more important for the leader to survive the battle than to set some kind of example. And feel free to think Anora's being disturbing if you wish but you are mistaken about one thing.

If Loghain died at Landsmeet: Despite Loghain being executed in disgrace, Queen Anora insisted on building a monument to her father, overlooking the Orlesian embassy. The statue was largely ignored, save by Anora herself, who voyaged out to the statue once a year to place flowers at its feet.

If Loghain dies killing the Archdemon: Queen Anora had a monument built to her father in honor of his redemption at Fort Drakon. The monument was built overlooking the Orlesian embassy... "watching" it carefully, as the local legend goes. It became popular, and in time, Loghain's darker deeds were forgotten in favor of his more heroic ones.

Anora doesn't obsessively stop by every day, she goes by once a year and puts flowers at the statues feet like many people put flowers at a grave.

[Lord_Anthonior]

Ryzaki wrote...

Ah yes leaving Fereldan when Loghain was recruited. I see why people get irritated about that, while I frankly don't really mind it (everyone has a line that you shouldn't cross and that was Alistair's hell the guy warns you before hand) it is betraying his Warden vows to do whatever it takes to stop the blight.

Though frankly I judge him the same way I judge the others for ditching you when you do something they don't agree with. As long as I understand the reason I'm a pretty "meh". Person.

Though I do not believe he's betraying Fereldan. Just the Wardens.

I always kill Loghain, crimes are crimes and besides there are several, desertion during a battlefield is a crime punishable by death, however, Loghain is not in question here. What is, is  that alistair does leave the wardens and the landsmeet IF Anora let him of course.

What it does seems is that alistair does leaves on a whim his emotions rule him over I suppose women like that of him. Morrigan leaves the party if you tell her to do so or if she feels threatened by Flemeth if she is not killed and she has to protect herself against her, so I understand she cares for her life and her survival, though I never get to that point and I protect her always. Zevran does leaves or is killed if he betrays the warden when facing Talisin but that would have to happen if his approval was low or with no change. Leliana leaves if she is asked to or while defending the ashes as for Wynne too. Sten I suppose can be killed in heaven or after getting his sword tell him to leave or not recruiting him at all, as for Ogrhen I have no idea since he is too funny to get rid of him.

So the other characters leaves for their own survival, defending a religious ideal or by dismissal of a pledge, but alistair, why does he leaves? because he just couldn't tolerate the idea of Loghain been recruited as a warden? why does he actually demand to be king? so that he can actually punish Loghain, so he can have the authority of punishment?

Let Ferelden be saved by the warden and the company the warden keeps, Loghain and Anora, alistair had enough of it and he just leaves the landsmeet and the war. I'm aware that it depends of the choices of each player but as for the character that's is one interesting way of facing responsabilities during a time of war and this character doesn't seem to care for it, leaving not survival, no responsability or social convictions he just leaves because he was emotional and angry.

[Merilsell]

Hmm, wow...it actually took eleven sites until it came down to Loghain/landsmeet? I guess that is now officially a new record.

[Shadow of Light Dragon]

Merilsell wrote...

Hmm, wow...it actually took eleven sites until it came down to Loghain/landsmeet? I guess that is now officially a new record.

Heh. I was thinking similar. There goes the thread.