472 réponses à ce sujet

[Ryzaki]

Lord_Anthonior wrote...
I always kill Loghain, crimes are crimes and besides there are several, desertion during a battlefield is a crime punishable by death, however, Loghain is not in question here. What is, is  that alistair does leave the wardens and the landsmeet IF Anora let him of course.

What it does seems is that alistair does leaves on a whim his emotions rule him over I suppose women like that of him. Morrigan leaves the party if you tell her to do so or if she feels threatened by Flemeth if she is not killed and she has to protect herself against her, so I understand she cares for her life and her survival, though I never get to that point and I protect her always. Zevran does leaves or is killed if he betrays the warden when facing Talisin but that would have to happen if his approval was low or with no change. Leliana leaves if she is asked to or while defending the ashes as for Wynne too. Sten I suppose can be killed in heaven or after getting his sword tell him to leave or not recruiting him at all, as for Ogrhen I have no idea since he is too funny to get rid of him.

So the other characters leaves for their own survival, defending a religious ideal or by dismissal of a pledge, but alistair, why does he leaves? because he just couldn't tolerate the idea of Loghain been recruited as a warden? why does he actually demand to be king? so that he can actually punish Loghain, so he can have the authority of punishment?

Let Ferelden be saved by the warden and the company the warden keeps, Loghain and Anora, alistair had enough of it and he just leaves the landsmeet and the war. I'm aware that it depends of the choices of each player but as for the character that's is one interesting way of facing responsabilities during a time of war and this character doesn't seem to care for it, leaving not survival, no responsability or social convictions he just leaves because he was emotional and angry.

What does not doing the dark ritual have to do with Morrigan's survival?   Or a dismissal of a pledge?

What does poisoning the ashes, not talking to Zevran enough, using the anvil and so forth have to do with people's survival? 

And you just said the defense of an ideal. Alistair has this (wrong and flawed) ideal of the Wardens being heroes. Loghain threatens that ideal so he leaves. How exactly is he so unique from the other party members?

And I never said anything about him not leaving wasn't because he was emotional and angry but that I understood. Morrigan leaves out of anger, as most other party members will if you get their approval low enough.

I really wish you had a "ditch Fereldan and head to Orlais" choice. Granted the game would've been short but still. It would've been a nice option to have. The "Oh sh*t" look on people's faces as the Darkspawn swarmed them would've been epic.

That said I personally can't spare Loghain. (Mostly because I play HN and I doubt Howe would've slaughted the Couslands without backing from Loghain. <_< Then I think of meeting that bastard at Ostagar and how he has the nerve to look my Cousland straight in the eye knowing what that snake has done and...urgh.) I have a grand total of one game where I spared him and I fed his ass to the archedemon with glee.

Modifié par Ryzaki, 28 novembre 2010 - 07:37 .

[CalJones]

Glaucon wrote...

He's not leading the first wave or anything, you can see him on a raised platform directing the army during the cut scene.  Obviously he gets stuck in later in the battle but he's not involved in the high risk charge. 
It says once a year but I think she sneaks there at night .  I seem to remember pointing out to another player that her well is permanently poisoned.  I'm kind of like that, you can cross me if your smart enough but you'll only do it once.

There's a conversation you can have with him at Redcliffe, before the battle, where he says how odd it is to be on the edge of things rather than directing the battle. At this point he is no longer a general, but a Grey Warden, so no, he's not part of that charge.

As for Anora, why would she sneak there at night? She's queen - she would go with an armed escort at least.

[Addai]

Lord_Anthonior wrote...


What it does seems is that alistair does leaves on a whim his emotions rule him over I suppose women like that of him. Morrigan leaves the party if you tell her to do so or if she feels threatened by Flemeth if she is not killed and she has to protect herself against her, so I understand she cares for her life and her survival, though I never get to that point and I protect her always.

Or if she doesn't get her way with the ritual.

So the other characters leaves for their own survival, defending a religious ideal or by dismissal of a pledge, but alistair, why does he leaves? because he just couldn't tolerate the idea of Loghain been recruited as a warden? why does he actually demand to be king? so that he can actually punish Loghain, so he can have the authority of punishment?

He's defending what he sees as an ideal of justice and purity of the Wardens.  Misguided to some extent, sure, but not so different than Wynne and Leliana.  Arguably more pertinent since he believes Loghain caused the disaster at Ostagar and will cause another, and doesn't want to be party to it.

I don't defend his leaving, but all of the NPCs have their breaking points and those are personal as well as related to larger issues.  Whether you see one or the other as more egregious usually comes down to POV and to which character you like better and hence are more willing to excuse.

Modifié par Addai67, 28 novembre 2010 - 08:16 .

[Lord_Anthonior]

Addai67 wrote...

Lord_Anthonior wrote...


What it does seems is that alistair does leaves on a whim his emotions rule him over I suppose women like that of him. Morrigan leaves the party if you tell her to do so or if she feels threatened by Flemeth if she is not killed and she has to protect herself against her, so I understand she cares for her life and her survival, though I never get to that point and I protect her always.

Or if she doesn't get her way with the ritual.

Indeed, she leaves if the ritual is declined but as seen in Witch Hunt the ritual and the baby are part of a means to a bigger end, who knows what that change will be or how it will played or even IF it will be even shown considering that it could possibly be a part of a quest of change and freedom. However, is for the Warden to decline it, she cares for the warden is the warden who might not care for her and will not watch him/her die and still her quest most carry on, for there are other things to come.

So the other characters leaves for their own survival, defending a religious ideal or by dismissal of a pledge, but alistair, why does he leaves? because he just couldn't tolerate the idea of Loghain been recruited as a warden? why does he actually demand to be king? so that he can actually punish Loghain, so he can have the authority of punishment?

He's defending what he sees as an ideal of justice and purity of the Wardens.  Misguided to some extent, sure, but not so different than Wynne and Leliana.  Arguably more pertinent since he believes Loghain caused the disaster at Ostagar and will cause another, and doesn't want to be party to it.

I don't defend his leaving, but all of the NPCs have their breaking points and those are personal as well as related to larger issues.  Whether you see one or the other as more egregious usually comes down to POV and to which character you like better and hence are more willing to excuse.

I suppose you are right, I think that could be the exactly the issue, what things the player are more willing to oversee and excuse than other things and what things each player likes and doesn't from the characters, after all, the Wardens is not an order about Justice and Purity for anyone can be recruitied to it and the Warden as a tv spot once said: "Not all Heroes are pure" but that as well depends on the player, you are not doing what is right or wrong but what you think is best to the cause.

Modifié par Lord_Anthonior, 28 novembre 2010 - 09:16 .

[Sueno]

And you just said the defense of an ideal. Alistair has this (wrong and
flawed) ideal of the Wardens being heroes. Loghain threatens that ideal
so he leaves. How exactly is he so unique from the other party members?

I don't know if it was in defense of the ideal of the wardens being heroes. That sounds more like Cailan's ideal. Alistair paints the wardens to be band of brothers, the family he never had and Loghain allows someone from that family to die. Alistair wants Loghain dead purely out of vengence. In the end, if you choose to keep Loghain alive and allow him to do the joining this vengence becomes all consuming to the point where he walks out of the landsmeet. While this is very in character for Alistair I don't believe allowing his emotions to overtake him is a great trait for a king to have. I'm in no way implying that leaders should disregard feelings but they shouldn't allow those feelings to do the leading for them (which Alistair does).

[Ryzaki]

Sueno wrote...
I don't know if it was in defense of the ideal of the wardens being heroes. That sounds more like Cailan's ideal. Alistair paints the wardens to be band of brothers, the family he never had and Loghain allows someone from that family to die. Alistair wants Loghain dead purely out of vengence. In the end, if you choose to keep Loghain alive and allow him to do the joining this vengence becomes all consuming to the point where he walks out of the landsmeet. While this is very in character for Alistair I don't believe allowing his emotions to overtake him is a great trait for a king to have. I'm in no way implying that leaders should disregard feelings but they shouldn't allow those feelings to do the leading for them (which Alistair does).

Actually if you talk to Alistair at Ostagar he's a little...odd about Daveth a former pickpocket being a warden. Sure he says he's okaywith all mater of things but when push comes to shove he has a romanticized ideal about them.

Though that family part is a big part of it too. Frankly I think it's because he had the biggest man crush ever on Duncan.

Seriously though yes I guess I felt that it was very emotional and vengeful. Though I disagree about the overtaking. To me it was just that one time and he had very valid reasons. (Now if Riordan had bothered to explain about the Warden dying to stop the Archedemon beforehand Alistair might've been able to be reasoned with). He didn't see Loghain as being punished but rewarded. To him being a Warden was an honor. (As evident at how he treats a -100 warden.)

Also Hardened Alistair doesn't walk away all the time. You can get him to marry Anora oddly enough. So it couldn't have been that consuming. Just enough that he wants to get the heck away from you and Loghain. For me to consider it all consuming he would've had to attack Loghain regardless of what the Warden and everyone else thought or did.

[Persephone]

Glaucon wrote...

Sarah1281 wrote...

Glaucon wrote...

Oh and never mind her slaughtered husband, oh no, let's put a statue up to daddy. yuk.

Well, let's compare them. Loghain would get a statue for being the Hero of River Dane and serving as a trusted friend and general to Maric for twenty-five years as well as anything he did under Cailan's rule as well as (if the statue is popular) ending a Blight.

Cailan...died because he wouldn't listen to everyone telling him not to be stupid and fight on the front lines.

Why should Cailan have been the one with the statue? 

I didn't intend to imply that Cailan should have had a statue too.  But I do think that he should have led his forces in the battle at Ostegar.  We lead from the front to set an example and all that jazz.  And it's not so much the erecting of the statue to Loghain, it's the daily episodes of her prostrating herself upon it.  Really quite disturbing to me.  But you know Sarah128, you won't be able to change my mind on this one and I accept that I'm wrong to take that stance but I can live with that. 

Daily? She goes there once a year to put flowers at its feet. I visit my mother's grave once a year or more too. Is that disturbing too? GEEZ.

[Persephone]

Ryzaki wrote...

Lord_Anthonior wrote...
I always kill Loghain, crimes are crimes and besides there are several, desertion during a battlefield is a crime punishable by death, however, Loghain is not in question here. What is, is  that alistair does leave the wardens and the landsmeet IF Anora let him of course.

What it does seems is that alistair does leaves on a whim his emotions rule him over I suppose women like that of him. Morrigan leaves the party if you tell her to do so or if she feels threatened by Flemeth if she is not killed and she has to protect herself against her, so I understand she cares for her life and her survival, though I never get to that point and I protect her always. Zevran does leaves or is killed if he betrays the warden when facing Talisin but that would have to happen if his approval was low or with no change. Leliana leaves if she is asked to or while defending the ashes as for Wynne too. Sten I suppose can be killed in heaven or after getting his sword tell him to leave or not recruiting him at all, as for Ogrhen I have no idea since he is too funny to get rid of him.

So the other characters leaves for their own survival, defending a religious ideal or by dismissal of a pledge, but alistair, why does he leaves? because he just couldn't tolerate the idea of Loghain been recruited as a warden? why does he actually demand to be king? so that he can actually punish Loghain, so he can have the authority of punishment?

Let Ferelden be saved by the warden and the company the warden keeps, Loghain and Anora, alistair had enough of it and he just leaves the landsmeet and the war. I'm aware that it depends of the choices of each player but as for the character that's is one interesting way of facing responsabilities during a time of war and this character doesn't seem to care for it, leaving not survival, no responsability or social convictions he just leaves because he was emotional and angry.

What does not doing the dark ritual have to do with Morrigan's survival?   Or a dismissal of a pledge?

What does poisoning the ashes, not talking to Zevran enough, using the anvil and so forth have to do with people's survival? 

And you just said the defense of an ideal. Alistair has this (wrong and flawed) ideal of the Wardens being heroes. Loghain threatens that ideal so he leaves. How exactly is he so unique from the other party members?

And I never said anything about him not leaving wasn't because he was emotional and angry but that I understood. Morrigan leaves out of anger, as most other party members will if you get their approval low enough.

I really wish you had a "ditch Fereldan and head to Orlais" choice. Granted the game would've been short but still. It would've been a nice option to have. The "Oh sh*t" look on people's faces as the Darkspawn swarmed them would've been epic.

That said I personally can't spare Loghain. (Mostly because I play HN and I doubt Howe would've slaughted the Couslands without backing from Loghain.

Here we go again: David Gaider confirmed that Loghain neither knew of nor backed the Cousland massacre in any way.

[nos_astra]

Word of God can hardly erase the impression you are getting from the game. It also fails to explain why Howe can murder one of the highest ranking families and expect to get away with it. I have yet to see an explanation that doesn't handwave this point by assuming that Howe and/or the Landsmeet are just that stupid.

Edit: We are discussing the appeal of one character, so I want to add that I dislike handwaving the implication that Loghain might have been aware that Howe was planning something so despicable.

Howe's just that evil. The Bannorn are stupid. Eamon is an idiot.

No thanks, not in my story. Everyone has their reasons.

Modifié par klarabella, 28 novembre 2010 - 10:14 .

[Sueno]

Ryzaki wrote...

Sueno wrote...
I don't know if it was in defense of the ideal of the wardens being heroes. That sounds more like Cailan's ideal. Alistair paints the wardens to be band of brothers, the family he never had and Loghain allows someone from that family to die. Alistair wants Loghain dead purely out of vengence. In the end, if you choose to keep Loghain alive and allow him to do the joining this vengence becomes all consuming to the point where he walks out of the landsmeet. While this is very in character for Alistair I don't believe allowing his emotions to overtake him is a great trait for a king to have. I'm in no way implying that leaders should disregard feelings but they shouldn't allow those feelings to do the leading for them (which Alistair does).

Actually if you talk to Alistair at Ostagar he's a little...odd about Daveth a former pickpocket being a warden. Sure he says he's okaywith all mater of things but when push comes to shove he has a romanticized ideal about them.

Though that family part is a big part of it too. Frankly I think it's because he had the biggest man crush ever on Duncan.

Seriously though yes I guess I felt that it was very emotional and vengeful. Though I disagree about the overtaking. To me it was just that one time and he had very valid reasons. (Now if Riordan had bothered to explain about the Warden dying to stop the Archedemon beforehand Alistair might've been able to be reasoned with). He didn't see Loghain as being punished but rewarded. To him being a Warden was an honor. (As evident at how he treats a -100 warden.)

Also Hardened Alistair doesn't walk away all the time. You can get him to marry Anora oddly enough. So it couldn't have been that consuming. Just enough that he wants to get the heck away from you and Loghain. For me to consider it all consuming he would've had to attack Loghain regardless of what the Warden and everyone else thought or did.

I don't know if I would call it an ideal; I think Alistair feels there are standards and they should be applied to everyone. You can bend those rules sometimes for a petty theif, especially if there news of a blight. But allowing the man who killed Duncan and started a civil war to join would go way beyond bending the rules.

Not everyone will react the same when it comes to being vengeful. Alistair killing Loghain against everyones wishes would have been a very ooc. I see him leaving as all consuming because his focuses shifts away from protecting Ferelden and onto his own feeligns and he just walks out. He abondons the grey wardens, his lover, and his nation all because he couldn't get over Loghain joining the wardens. Tha'ts big.

[Persephone]

klarabella wrote...

Word of God can hardly erase the impression you are getting from the game. It also fails to explain why Howe can murder one of the highest ranking families and expect to get away with it. I have yet to see an explanation that doesn't handwave this point by assuming that Howe and/or the Landsmeet are just that stupid.

Word of God does a lot in my case. I never had that impression anyway when playing as a HN. Did I hate his alliance with Howe when playing as a HN? Yes. Did I see its tactical necessity once the civil war broke out? Yup. Besides, there are other, more glaring plot holes to worry about.:innocent:

[nos_astra]

Persephone wrote...
Word of God does a lot in my case. I never had that impression anyway when playing as a HN. Did I hate his alliance with Howe when playing as a HN? Yes. Did I see its tactical necessity once the civil war broke out? Yup. Besides, there are other, more glaring plot holes to worry about.:innocent:

For you, yes. I can see that. For you Loghain's redemption is an important part of the story and in order to make him more interesting you are willing to overlook the plot holes you create with your willingness to assume the best of him. That's fine, it's your story.

Loghain wasn't written with the intention to make him likeable or lovable, you were supposed to kill him without a second thought. In Origins he was just a villain, originally trying to kill the king because he wanted to divorce Anora and marry an Orlesian. It was only after the writing for Origins was done, that Gaider started writing TST, fleshing out Loghain's character in the process. Whatever Word of God has, it's very likely a retcon.

For me Origins is about the last of the Grey Wardens, how they succed and how they fail, how Calenhad's line ends. Alistair is a big part of my story, while Loghain is not that important. For me a well-balanced image of Ferelden and a nobility that also has positive traits is more important, so I can't dumb them down to two-dimensional cardboard cutouts just to make Loghain look less insane/incompetent/whatever.

It always comes down to how you play.

Modifié par klarabella, 28 novembre 2010 - 12:13 .

[Sueno]

Glaucon wrote...

I never understood the sudden appearance of Alistair's vengeful side.  It took me by complete surprise at the landsmeet, and personally I don't think it marries well with the rest of his character as displayed in DA:O?  You spend 50 hours with the happy go lucky chap, then all of a sudden he is this intransigent borderline psychopath who, if forced to leave, is likely to invest his remaining days pursuing vengeance in other forms?  I just don't get that aspect of him.

Loghain abandoned Duncan on the battlefield, had Arl Eamon poisoned, and started a civil war in Ferelden, so it's not hard for me to believe that having him join the grey wardens is crossing the line for Alistair. His reaction at the landsmeet was sort of a extreme version of his response to your grey warden in Lothering if you threaten the Revered Mother.

[Lord_Anthonior]

Sueno wrote...

Glaucon wrote...

I never understood the sudden appearance of Alistair's vengeful side.  It took me by complete surprise at the landsmeet, and personally I don't think it marries well with the rest of his character as displayed in DA:O?  You spend 50 hours with the happy go lucky chap, then all of a sudden he is this intransigent borderline psychopath who, if forced to leave, is likely to invest his remaining days pursuing vengeance in other forms?  I just don't get that aspect of him.

Loghain abandoned Duncan on the battlefield, had Arl Eamon poisoned, and started a civil war in Ferelden, so it's not hard for me to believe that having him join the grey wardens is crossing the line for Alistair. His reaction at the landsmeet was sort of a extreme version of his response to your grey warden in Lothering if you threaten the Revered Mother.

I agree on that, it was his "salt on the wound" and...hahaha I kinda forgot about that, threating the revered mother in Lothering, I always do that and of course I let alistair and Leliana out of the party and just bring Morrigan with me, it always makes me I smile when she says "how fun!" if the warden had voice or could reply I would have chosen: "I know dear, I know, just for you":lol:

Anyways, I always kill Loghain but I think I'll change that in future playthroughs I've been skipping the recruiter achievement for some time now.

[Wulfram]

"You know that guy who killed Dad? Let's adopt him."



Is how Alistair sees recruiting Loghain.

[Wulfram]

Well, he probably didn't see Loghain joining the Wardens as a possibility prior to the landsmeet, so he had no reason to comment on it.



I do agree we could have done with a bit more about his desire for vengeance, though.

[Sueno]

Glaucon wrote...

Wulfram wrote...

"You know that guy who killed Dad? Let's adopt him."

Is how Alistair sees recruiting Loghain.

I don't have a problem with him having that emotion, only that he fails to express it at anytime prior to the meet (to my knowledge).  But then again he is emotionally stunted so meh.

Making Loghain a grey warden is a big deal so Alistair reacted in a big way. What I found odd is how blase he is about having sex with Morrigan especially after he made sex into this huge thing with the grey warden. Anyone else a little thrown off by that scene?

[Maria13]

Glaucon wrote...

I never understood the sudden appearance of Alistair's vengeful side.  It took me by complete surprise at the landsmeet, and personally I don't think it marries well with the rest of his character as displayed in DA:O?  You spend 50 hours with the happy go lucky chap, then all of a sudden he is this intransigent borderline psychopath who, if forced to leave, is likely to invest his remaining days pursuing vengeance in other forms?  I just don't get that aspect of him.

Possibly a family trait, I wrote a one-shot on it about a week ago social.bioware.com/forum/1/topic/47/index/4405199/778