472 réponses à ce sujet

[Lord_Anthonior]

Glaucon wrote...

Lord_Anthonior wrote...

I agree on that, it was his "salt on the wound" and...hahaha I kinda forgot about that, threating the revered mother in Lothering, I always do that and of course I let alistair and Leliana out of the party and just bring Morrigan with me, it always makes me I smile when she says "how fun!" if the warden had voice or could reply I would have chosen: "I know dear, I know, just for you":lol:

Anyways, I always kill Loghain but I think I'll change that in future playthroughs I've been skipping the recruiter achievement for some time now.

I Never bother with achievements myself.  Can't see the point in an rpg. 

That's why I just have some, pass over some like that one "recruiter" and there are some others that I'll never get.

Also regarding the comment of "borrowing balls before the landsmeet" I also remember to add that he "borrowed" some in case the warden sacrifice Isolde or Connor.

[Maria13]

I'd say it's not "borrowing" balls as such, he has them, there are certain choices in game that will make him tell you off... You can find some of these on YouTube, they are epic...

www.youtube.com/watch

Modifié par Maria13, 28 novembre 2010 - 01:29 .

[mopotter]

 I agree with Errant_Night about the hardening.      

It sounds like you didn't harden him, which makes a big difference. 'Hardening' is a misnomer, as it implies that he becomes callous. He doesn't. His values remain unchanged, he's still a funny, likable guy, but he's more willing to stand up for himself and what he wants. He's been told his whole life that he's not worth much, and your character can convince him otherwise. It's entirely up to you whether he gains self esteem or not.

  I've never liked that word, I've used the idea that he gets some self-confidence.

I've thought about this, probably too much, but for me I think it's an age thing.  Alistair makes me laugh and gives me roses.   At 20 which is around his age, I would have ignored him as being too nice and someone my parents would have liked, so I would have gone for Zev, and I have 2 characters who did romance Zev.  One because I liked the ending where as a friend you can talk Alistair down and he has a chance at happiness with Anora.

But when I'm playing with decisions I'd make, Alistair is my choice.  I've outgrown that interest in bad boys and find men who make me laugh, who show they care in little ways like roses, men who stand up for what they believe is right, much more appealing.   And the laughter is very important.  My husband makes me laugh.  I'ts really hard to stay mad at someone who has you giggling a few minuets later.   Steve Valentine's voice caught me first and then Alistair's personality sealed the deal.  

With that being said.  I hate the sending him to have sex endings and what they did with him if you as his LI keep Loghain alive.  His best friend can talk him down.  The love of his life can't.   But other than that, it's great.

[Lord_Anthonior]

Maria13 wrote...

I'd say it's not "borrowing" balls as such, he has them, there are certain choices in game that will make him tell you off... You can find some of these on YouTube, they are epic...

www.youtube.com/watch

Haha Thank you Señora , but I pass on that , that would only serve me as
a reminder of my certainty of keeping alistair at camp the entire game and the lack of a "sucker punch mod" for the game.

[mopotter]

errant_knight wrote...

One thing about the idea that Alistair is 'broken' (a phrase that I don't care for).... If Alistair is broken, then so are all the love interests. Each one has been profoundly affected by their past in negative ways, and need the warden to move beyond their experiences. Alistair's insecurity is arguably the least of their problems.

The ability to make yourself queen has nothing to bo with hardening.
 
If you got the 'never deserved to be so happy' line, you didn't harden him. That only comes up when unhardened Alistair is betrayed (yes, I know, some people don't see it as betrayal, but Alistair does) by the woman he loves. He will always be very angry if you spare the man he believes is a traitor who killed the king, and destroyed the Grey Wardens, demeaning the wardens in the process (in his view), but he says slightly different things when hardened.

golly gee wiz  again I agree with you about the broken term, and everything else in your post.  

[mopotter]

tuppence95 wrote...

Moondoggie wrote...

Matter of taste i guess. Personally i'm not a fan of the overly sensertive types who are really shy. But some girls like that.

I haven't seen him being really shy.  Yes, re: sex - he does want to wait until he's sure.  But he's fairly assertive about making moves once he's decided.  And yeah, matter of taste.  I've had too much crap from men in my life who are too tough to be sensitive.  I'm so lucky I found a husband who has a lot of similarities to Alistair.

This might also be one of my reasons for preferring Alistair.  My husband also has some of his traits.  He occasionally brings me a single rose, has teared up at sad movies, remembers our anniversary and even remembers what I wore on our first date over 20 years ago.  
It took me a long time to realize how important these things are and I was also very luck to find him once I had myself figured out.  I do think my age and past relationships are one of the factors in my Alistair choice.

[mopotter]

Gilsa wrote...

@Sueno -- Interestingly enough, the Alistair you're seeing is a second rewrite from David Gaider. Alistair was originally tougher and more brooding, but the response was not positive so DG did a complete rewrite of Alistair to what you see. He also wrote Zevran's character if you didn't already know that so it's nice to see the similarities and contrast in different approaches. If you're a fan of either character (and Morrigan, since he wrote her, too), then keep your fingers crossed that we'll see the same underlying elements carried over into the DA2 romances.

I love Daid Gaider, and my husband understands.    Back in 2004 he wrote us an unofficial ending for KOTOR.  I'll be happy with any one he gives us.  

[CalJones]

I have a love-hate relationship with Alistair - Alistair is funny and his friendship speech is really touching, but deep down I'm a Loghain girl and so I get to see Alistair's Landsmeet tantrum every time I play. There are things about Alistair that tick me off, to be honest, but that's the one that makes me want to introduce his face to an iron skillet.

It's interesting that you mention your husband having similar traits to Alistair. My fella is a rather saturnine-looking workaholic who hates the French and who I see only a few times a year due to his work. Sounds familiar, huh?

When it comes down to it, Alistair is just not my type. I can see how the ladies are charmed by him, but he reminds me of a nice but slightly awkward, middle class undergraduate and as a cynical fortysomething, I just can't be doing with that. Not even if I suspend disbelief. Zevran, yes (though usually with male characters because the mansex is hot) and I'd do Nathaniel in a heartbeat were he available, but Alistair...no. Just no.

[Sarah1281]

klarabella wrote...



For you, yes. I can see that. For you Loghain's redemption is an important part of the story and in order to make him more interesting you are willing to overlook the plot holes you create with your willingness to assume the best of him. That's fine, it's your story.

I really don't see these gaping plotholes you keep mentioning. I mean, the only thing that is slightly confusing is how Howe expected to get away with massacring the Couslands.



There are a few possibilities that I can think of and I'm sure those aren't the only possible options.



1) Howe isn't mentally stable and planned to just feed everyone a story about what happened afterwards. What was that story? All we hear is something about them being traitors to the crown, Bryce's trip to Orlais where someone thought he was the king may play a part to that. This doesn't actually require Eamon or the Bannorn to be stupid because we have no idea whether or not Howe's story actually would have been accepted had Loghain not desperately needed a strong ally (and the way everyone commiserates with the HN makes me think it would not have been)



2) Howe legitimately did find evidence that he thought pointed to an Orlesian conspiracy (which his dialogue with the HN can hint at) but that may have been planted. He could just be overly paranoid and, again, mentally unstable. He really never across as all that sane to me during the games.



3) We all know that Loghain was planning on confronting Cailan post-Ostagar about his dealings with Orlais and that was why he got Eamon out of the way. If Howe had been aware of this (since he openly doesn't think much of Cailan, I can't see him having a problem with that), he might have gambled that getting the royalist Couslands out of the way would have made it easier to remove Cailan and that once he took the teynir Loghain would need him as an ally...which is what happened.

[nos_astra]

Sarah1281 wrote...
I really don't see these gaping plotholes you keep mentioning. I mean, the only thing that is slightly confusing is how Howe expected to get away with massacring the Couslands.

I really don't want to derail the discussion, so please let's not discuss this here ... and again. You know where this leads and it's not the point of this threat.

[Sarah1281]

klarabella wrote...

Sarah1281 wrote...
I really don't see these gaping plotholes you keep mentioning. I mean, the only thing that is slightly confusing is how Howe expected to get away with massacring the Couslands.

I really don't want to derail the discussion, so please let's not discuss this here ... and again. You know where this leads and it's not the point of this threat.

I really don't. If I have taken part in a discussion like that before, it was so long ago it's not l ike I remember it. But even though the discussion has already been hopelessly derailed, if you don't want to discuss it, fine. I just really don't like that you're saying that you have to ignore gaping plot holes to like Loghain.

[KnightofPhoenix]

Loghain debates became such a common occurence that it's no longer considered derailement. It's on topic for every thread.

[nos_astra]

Sarah1281 wrote...
I really don't. If I have taken part in a discussion like that before, it was so long ago it's not l ike I remember it. But even though the discussion has already been hopelessly derailed, if you don't want to discuss it, fine. I just really don't like that you're saying that you have to ignore gaping plot holes to like Loghain.

A plot hole, or plothole, is a gap or inconsistency in a storyline that goes against the flow of logic established by the story's plot, or constitutes a blatant omission of relevant information regarding the plot. These include such things as unlikely behaviour or actions of characters, illogical or impossible events, events happening for no apparent reason, or statements/events that contradict earlier events in the storyline.

Almost everything concerning Loghain's motives and reasons is based on information that is not presented in the game, some information in the game even contradicts how his fans perceive his character.

I prefer consistent characters.

Modifié par klarabella, 28 novembre 2010 - 04:29 .

[Maria13]

@ Glaucon, detailed description of Cailan's shield: "Two dogs rampant support a golden crown. One wields an axe as a symbol of might, the other a royal scepter as a symbol of command." This is why I love this game, so much detail, so much to play with...

That is his response if you kill Connor, I think...

Modifié par Maria13, 28 novembre 2010 - 05:49 .

[Reika]

Alistair genuinely angry is a scary thing to encounter.

[Persephone]

klarabella wrote...

Persephone wrote...
Word of God does a lot in my case. I never had that impression anyway when playing as a HN. Did I hate his alliance with Howe when playing as a HN? Yes. Did I see its tactical necessity once the civil war broke out? Yup. Besides, there are other, more glaring plot holes to worry about.:innocent:

For you, yes. I can see that. For you Loghain's redemption is an important part of the story and in order to make him more interesting you are willing to overlook the plot holes you create with your willingness to assume the best of him. That's fine, it's your story.

Loghain wasn't written with the intention to make him likeable or lovable, you were supposed to kill him without a second thought. In Origins he was just a villain, originally trying to kill the king because he wanted to divorce Anora and marry an Orlesian. It was only after the writing for Origins was done, that Gaider started writing TST, fleshing out Loghain's character in the process. Whatever Word of God has, it's very likely a retcon.

For me Origins is about the last of the Grey Wardens, how they succed and how they fail, how Calenhad's line ends. Alistair is a big part of my story, while Loghain is not that important. For me a well-balanced image of Ferelden and a nobility that also has positive traits is more important, so I can't dumb them down to two-dimensional cardboard cutouts just to make Loghain look less insane/incompetent/whatever.

It always comes down to how you play.

Either way, it's assuming a lot.

Didn't TST come out BEFORE DAO?

Kill him without a second thought? Given what happens prior and how the actual execution scene plays out, no way.

And I would appreciate it if, since you demand the same for your gaming style, if you'd not reduce what you perceive as my gaming style to such an outright idiotic level.

[CalJones]

It did, but it was written after the main Origins storyline had been put in place.

[Persephone]

CalJones wrote...

It did, but it was written after the main Origins storyline had been put in place.

Still, it came out first & thus can be seen as canon. Much as I still like Alistair, I don't like the implication that one has to be delusional to like Loghain in the game. Just as I don't like the idea of being told that I'm into whining, self-centered brats if I say that I like Alistair. Liking both Loghain & Alistair, the JOY! 

[tuppence95]

I generally hate Loghain inside the game, but he's number 2 on my favorites list out of character.  Just think how boring the game would be without him.  He's one of the best written opponents I've encountered.  I just don't like his braids.