472 réponses à ce sujet

[Persephone]

tuppence95 wrote...

I generally hate Loghain inside the game, but he's number 2 on my favorites list out of character.  Just think how boring the game would be without him.  He's one of the best written opponents I've encountered.  I just don't like his braids.  

That's what mods are for! 

I like his hairstyle though. Suits him. And he STILL reminds me of Severus Snape, esp. in profile.

Ah..er...but this thread is about...er...right...Alistair!

[KnightofPhoenix]

Caladhiel wrote...

tuppence95 wrote...

I generally hate Loghain inside the game, but he's number 2 on my favorites list out of character.  Just think how boring the game would be without him.  He's one of the best written opponents I've encountered.  I just don't like his braids.  

This. With the ingame Warden's background information I really cannot justify ever picking Loghain over Alistair - what my Warden knows it not what I know, no matter how much this fact pains me...

Just thought I would add that in-game, I personally had no hard time sparing Loghain, even when I didn't read the books or read what Gaider said, and I suspect a lot of people did the same.
I am saying this because some seem to believe that in-game, there is no reason to spare him and that doing so would be idiotic (and I know you didn't say such a thing).

Modifié par KnightofPhoenix, 28 novembre 2010 - 09:21 .

[tuppence95]

I don't think sparing Loghain is idiotic.  Two of my wardens spared him.  One had him do the US and the other male warden did the DR, so Loghain lived.

But I believe most people have a hard time sparing him, and not just because they have Alistair as a LI.  

Mary Kirby (who created Loghain) said this about 10 months ago:

@ Solica: To be entirely fair, Loghain was always meant to be a character that you could justifiably kill in the Landsmeet. That's pretty much what we expected players to do. He has unquestionably committed heinous crimes. You have every reason to kill him.

The point was always that he wasn't a crazy, cackling, "I WANT TO DESTROY THE WORLD, BWAHAHAHAHA!" villain, and his motives were comphrensible if not especially admirable. He was human, and he screwed up, and by the end, he knew that. And if you so chose, you could save him from himself. I always kind of saw him as Magus from Chrono Trigger. He's definitely a bad guy even though he did have some good intentions, and sparing him sort of screws one of your buddies... but you can still make that call, and not be completely crazy to do so.

As for the effect on Ferelden society... Ferelden wasn't going to heal cleanly no matter what you chose. The civil war ends at the Landsmeet, but either way the Fereldens have been killing their friends, family, and neighbors for almost a year. If you spare Loghain, maybe his opponents continue to feel resentment, or maybe it could be seen as a gesture toward reconciliation, an example for both sides to follow. If you kill him, his supporters have no one left to follow, but that probably doesn't make their anger and resentment simply disappear. Either way, Ferelden's political climate is even more unstable than usual (and it never was very stable) for quite a long time.

Link - http://social.biowar...488&lf=8#650488

*edit - I know, I know, I'm continuing to derail the topic.  But actually, any discussion of Alistair that goes on for awhile, almost always comes around to Loghain.  It's hard to avoid it, since the two are tied together, plotwise.

Modifié par tuppence95, 28 novembre 2010 - 09:37 .

[Addai]

CalJones wrote...

It did, but it was written after the main Origins storyline had been put in place.

Yes, in that monster thread in the old forum, Gaider said that the game plot informed how he wrote Loghain in TST and not the other way around.

[Addai]

Glaucon wrote...

Maria13 wrote...

Glaucon wrote...

I never understood the sudden appearance of Alistair's vengeful side.  It took me by complete surprise at the landsmeet, and personally I don't think it marries well with the rest of his character as displayed in DA:O?  You spend 50 hours with the happy go lucky chap, then all of a sudden he is this intransigent borderline psychopath who, if forced to leave, is likely to invest his remaining days pursuing vengeance in other forms?  I just don't get that aspect of him.

Possibly a family trait, I wrote a one-shot on it about a week ago social.bioware.com/forum/1/topic/47/index/4405199/778

Thanks. Consider it read.

ETA 
Having now read that I can see what you're implying and given the blood ties it's perfectly plausible.  Hmm... I can't really comment much farther than that as my Lore isn't on par.  The interpretation of the 'heraldic' symbol seems imaginative though.  Symbolism would suggest that if they truly represented different aspects of the family then they would be different in some manner other than simply opposing each other?

Maric definitely had a vengeful side.

Stolen Throne spoilers...



He lured the men who killed his mother to a Chantry under banner of truce and slaughtered them.  He ran a sword through Katriel (his elven lover) for betraying him and his army.  It tore him apart, but he did it.

Modifié par Addai67, 28 novembre 2010 - 09:42 .

[Ryzaki]

Sueno wrote...

I don't know if I would call it an ideal; I think Alistair feels there are standards and they should be applied to everyone. You can bend those rules sometimes for a petty theif, especially if there news of a blight. But allowing the man who killed Duncan and started a civil war to join would go way beyond bending the rules.

Not everyone will react the same when it comes to being vengeful. Alistair killing Loghain against everyones wishes would have been a very ooc. I see him leaving as all consuming because his focuses shifts away from protecting Ferelden and onto his own feeligns and he just walks out. He abondons the grey wardens, his lover, and his nation all because he couldn't get over Loghain joining the wardens. Tha'ts big.

Again he leaves when you're at the height of power. So I don't see how him walking out is such a big deal.

That said I doubt we're oing to agree on the matter.

As for the Loghain debate: I don't think Howe is stupid or petty eough to slaughter the Couslands unless he thought he could get away with it. The only guarantee he'd have on that front would be if he was allied with Loghain. So yes all my Couslands take off Loghain's head personally.

All of my mages who are friends with Jowan do the same.

Modifié par Ryzaki, 28 novembre 2010 - 11:13 .

[Sarah1281]

All of my mages who are friends with Jowan do the same.

Even though Loghain saved Jowan from being killed as a maleficar and it's not his fault Jowan was stupid enough to get caught?

[sylvanaerie]

Loghain didn't 'save' Jowan. Loghain used him. And then threw him to the wolves in Redcliffe. Frankly all he did was prolong Jowan's torture.

[Sarah1281]

sylvanaerie wrote...

Loghain didn't 'save' Jowan. Loghain used him. And then threw him to the wolves in Redcliffe. Frankly all he did was prolong Jowan's torture.

Sure he saved Jowan from being killed by the templars as a maleficar. He had been cornered by Alfstanna's brother when Loghain's men took him out of that situation and sent him to Redcliffe. I'm not sure how Jowan got caught but I suspect someone saw him poisoning Eamon at some point which, had he been more careful/competent, would not have happened. Is it not saving him because Loghain didn't have altruistic motives? Is it not saving him because Jowan got in trouble again? What if you make him leave the dungeon and he takes off with those refugees? If someone finds him eventually does that mean that you didn't save him either? 

Edit: I highly doubt Loghain ever wanted Jowan to get caught. Not for altruistic reasons, of course, but because if Jowan got away with the poisoning then there would be nothing to link Loghain to the crime. When Jowan got caught, he was free to tell anybody and everybody about it.

Modifié par Sarah1281, 28 novembre 2010 - 11:24 .

[sylvanaerie]

it is not saving him because no, he had no motives to 'save' him and then after taking him all the way back to Denerim (The plot at this point has some really stupid holes), he sends Jowan BACK to Redcliffe on the mission to poison Eamon. Jowan describes his capture and Loghain coming to him with the whole, 'for the good of Ferelden' spiel. No, he wasn't 'saving' Jowan and in fact sent him back to feed him to the wolves once Jowan did what he wanted. He even dangled "I'll fix things with the circle for you" as an inducement but never followed through with it.
*Edit* and no, releasing him at that point is not "Saving" him.  Personally I think any option at that point in Jowan's situation except death is just 'prolonging the agony' and not letting him man up and accept his responsibility for what he has done.

Modifié par sylvanaerie, 28 novembre 2010 - 11:30 .

[Ryzaki]

Sarah1281 wrote...

All of my mages who are friends with Jowan do the same.

Even though Loghain saved Jowan from being killed as a maleficar and it's not his fault Jowan was stupid enough to get caught?

Right because sending him to Redcliffe to be executed there after doing his dirty work was so much better.

What he does is place even more innocent blood on Jowan's hands, something Jowan didn't want to happen in the first place.

And Loghain has no authority over the Chantry so his whole "saving him" nonsense wouldn't have happened.

Modifié par Ryzaki, 28 novembre 2010 - 11:31 .

[Sarah1281]

I'm not talking about Loghain overall saving Jowan. He just saved him FROM THE TEMPLARS THAT WERE GOING TO KILL HIM. How did he do this? He removed Jowan from the templars' custody. It doesn't matter what Loghain did next because that doesn't mean that his removing Jowan from the templars' custody was not, in fact, saving him from them since they were going to kill him for being a blood mage had he not done this.

[Ryzaki]

Sarah1281 wrote...

I'm not talking about Loghain overall saving Jowan. He just saved him FROM THE TEMPLARS THAT WERE GOING TO KILL HIM. How did he do this? He removed Jowan from the templars' custody. It doesn't matter what Loghain did next because that doesn't mean that his removing Jowan from the templars' custody was not, in fact, saving him from them since they were going to kill him for being a blood mage had he not done this.

He saved him so he could use him. So no Loghain wasn't being altrustic. Jowan just ended up dying at a later date after doing his dirty work.

[Sarah1281]

Ryzaki wrote...

Sarah1281 wrote...

All of my mages who are friends with Jowan do the same.

Even though Loghain saved Jowan from being killed as a maleficar and it's not his fault Jowan was stupid enough to get caught?

Right because sending him to Redcliffe to be executed there after doing his dirty work was so much better.

What he does is place even more innocent blood on Jowan's hands, something Jowan didn't want to happen in the first place.

Why in the world would Loghain have wanted Jowan to have been executed for poisoning Eamon? I know Loghain doesn't care about Jowan but the problem with having Jowan as a scapegoat is that Jowan can and does pin the poisoning on Loghain. It is far better for him if Jowan gets away with it and leaves Redcliffe unsuspected. He can't possibly have sent Jowan there with the intention of having him executed by Eamon's men if he had any sense at all. Maybe if Jowan pointed the finger Loghain's way before Ostagar no one would believe it but afterwards? Everyone immediately accepts Loghain's guilt.

[Persephone]

Strange. Most of my HN spare Loghain, as do most of my mages. (I cannot stand Jowan at all, so he never plays a part in that decision) My CEs find it harder to spare him. My Dalish sometimes do & sometimes don't. It is my belief that violence does not help in the long run. "It would mean that Duncan could reast easier." Sure. And then the added, usually self-centered "Me too!". Killing him solves little and punishes nobody (As he embraces his death willingly & neither begs for his life nor fights his fate once the Warden has decided what to do with him) safe Anora who has to go through the most traumatic ordeal any child can suffer. As my HN have seen their father dying in a pool of his own blood, that's not an option. My Wardens do not waste resources. They do not squander the option to conscript Ferelden's tactical mastermind into their ranks. Mind you, that his how I see it. And it works out every time too. Lucky them, I guess?:happy:

[Ryzaki]

How would Loghain have stopped it? The only reason Jowan wasn't executed was because of the Zombie attacks which I doubt Loghain planned on.

Edit: My HN don't see him as much of a resource as a hinderance. His stragety blew up epically at Ostagar and they find him untrustworthy. Why would they believe he was on their side when not ten minutes before he was ranting about them being Orlesian spies? Not to mention my PC's are already the generals and There Can Only Be One! XD

Edit 2: Though yes it is interesting to see how other people see this.

That's why I love the Landsmeet.

Modifié par Ryzaki, 28 novembre 2010 - 11:40 .

[Sarah1281]

Ryzaki wrote...

Sarah1281 wrote...

I'm not talking about Loghain overall saving Jowan. He just saved him FROM THE TEMPLARS THAT WERE GOING TO KILL HIM. How did he do this? He removed Jowan from the templars' custody. It doesn't matter what Loghain did next because that doesn't mean that his removing Jowan from the templars' custody was not, in fact, saving him from them since they were going to kill him for being a blood mage had he not done this.

He saved him so he could use him. So no Loghain wasn't being altrustic. Jowan just ended up dying at a later date after doing his dirty work.

You know, I could have sworn that I said that Loghain wasn't being altruistic but savign someone from a danger doesn't require altruism. I mean, say someone sees someone obviously wealthy fall into a lake and decides to save them out of hope that they will get a reward and were they not wealthy they would not have bothered. This was not at all altruistic and yet the wealthy person's life was still saved.

Jowan being caught was probably not part of the plan but either way, none of that negates the fact tha Loghain saved Jowan from the templars and gave him a chance to get away. He had a better chance to succeed at Redcliffe and then leave then he did to get away from the templars.

[Sarah1281]

Ryzaki wrote...

How would Loghain have stopped it? The only reason Jowan wasn't executed was because of the Zombie attacks which I doubt Loghain planned on.

I never said he planned to life a finger to save Jowan from Redcliffe. My point is that Jowan getting caught was unfortunate and not the way it was supposed to go though obviously a risk.

[Ryzaki]

And I don't count it as saving if the reason was to use him and let him die at a later date.

How exactly was Jowan not going to get caught? New guy shows up, secret mage (so they're already pretty suspicious of him) and all of a sudden Eamon's sick? And no one is going to connect the dots? 

Modifié par Ryzaki, 28 novembre 2010 - 11:38 .

[Sarah1281]

Ryzaki wrote...

And I don't count it as saving if the reason was to use him and let him die at a later date.

See, this is the problem. You guys seem to be using the word 'saving' to mean all the positive connotations associated with it and I'm using it to mean 'prevented from dying.'

[sylvanaerie]

Ryzaki wrote...

How would Loghain have stopped it? The only reason Jowan wasn't executed was because of the Zombie attacks which I doubt Loghain planned on.

Edit: My HN don't see him as much of a resource as a hinderance. His stragety blew up epically at Ostagar and they find him untrustworthy. Why would they believe he was on their side when not ten minutes before he was ranting about them being Orlesian spies? Not to mention my PC's are already the generals and There Can Only Be One! XD

heheh you're PCs aren't from Highever they are from the Highlands eh?

[Ryzaki]

Sarah1281 wrote...

Ryzaki wrote...

And I don't count it as saving if the reason was to use him and let him die at a later date.

See, this is the problem. You guys seem to be using the word 'saving' to mean all the positive connotations associated with it and I'm using it to mean 'prevented from dying.'

If you're saying it as though one should be grateful there should be positive connotations.

Modifié par Ryzaki, 28 novembre 2010 - 11:39 .

[Persephone]

Ryzaki wrote...

How would Loghain have stopped it? The only reason Jowan wasn't executed was because of the Zombie attacks which I doubt Loghain planned on.

Edit: My HN don't see him as much of a resource as a hinderance. His stragety blew up epically at Ostagar and they find him untrustworthy. Why would they believe he was on their side when not ten minutes before he was ranting about them being Orlesian spies? Not to mention my PC's are already the generals and There Can Only Be One! XD

It was not his strategy that blew up at Ostagar but King Cailan's idiocy for the most part. Besides, what good would it do him to betray me once conscripted? Ferelden would be handed to the Blight and he'd be a disgraced fugitive. You can actually discuss this with him in camp.

[Sarah1281]

How exactly was Jowan not going to get caught? New guy shows up, secret mage (so they're already pretty suspicious of him) and all of a sudden Eamon's sick? And no one is going to connect the dots?

That would be Jowan's problem. It's not like I think Loghain had a vested interest in ensuring that no matter what Jowan would not be caught, just that he saw an opportunity when Isolde asked him about a mage and he would have preferred it had Jowan not been caught so he wouldn't be implicated. All I'm saying was that I doubt his ideal outcome was to have Jowan get caught and executed because then he could tattle on Loghain first...which is what happened.

[Ryzaki]

Persephone wrote...

It was not his strategy that blew up at Ostagar but King Cailan's idiocy for the most part. Besides, what good would it do him to betray me once conscripted? Ferelden would be handed to the Blight and he'd be a disgraced fugitive. You can actually discuss this with him in camp.

How does betraying the PC hand Fereldan over to the blight? The PC isn't the only brains in the operation.

Regardless we're not going to agree and this is not a Loghain thread.