472 réponses à ce sujet

[Ryzaki]

Sarah1281 wrote...



That would be Jowan's problem. It's not like I think Loghain had a vested interest in ensuring that no matter what Jowan would not be caught, just that he saw an opportunity when Isolde asked him about a mage and he would have preferred it had Jowan not been caught so he wouldn't be implicated. All I'm saying was that I doubt his ideal outcome was to have Jowan get caught and executed because then he could tattle on Loghain first...which is what happened.

Then my mage has no reason for him to be grateful for sparing Jowanin that case no? Which is why the whole discussion started?

[sylvanaerie]

I don't like him, I don't trust him, his plots all blow up in his face (some great general/tactician, he is outbattled and outfoxed throughout the game) and I kill him every playthrough. I haven't found one PC who can resist the urge to lop off his head in me yet. For me that's the most fun in the game, the pandemonium of the Landsmeet. After that its like Bioware had a massive party and forgot about the rest of the game...

[Sarah1281]

Ryzaki wrote...

Sarah1281 wrote...

Ryzaki wrote...



And I don't count it as saving if the reason was to use him and let him die at a later date.

See, this is the problem. You guys seem to be using the word 'saving' to mean all the positive connotations associated with it and I'm using it to mean 'prevented from dying.'

If you're saying it as though one should be grateful there should be positive connotations.

But...I'm NOT saying you should be grateful to Loghain for saving Jowan from the templars and then sending him off to poison Eamon. I'm saying that I don't feel Loghain taking Jowan from a certain-death situation and placing him in a possible-death situation is a reason for a mage that is friends with Jowan to kill Loghain over which is what you said yours do. Please note that I'm not trying to tell you how to play your game, though.

[Ryzaki]

sylvanaerie wrote...

I don't like him, I don't trust him, his plots all blow up in his face (some great general/tactician, he is outbattled and outfoxed throughout the game) and I kill him every playthrough. I haven't found one PC who can resist the urge to lop off his head in me yet. For me that's the most fun in the game, the pandemonium of the Landsmeet. After that its like Bioware had a massive party and forgot about the rest of the game...

Like Alistair insisting he's king all the time.

Though I have found one playthrough where the PC resisted the urge to lop off his head.

She still fed him to the archdemon though.

[Persephone]

Ryzaki wrote...

Persephone wrote...

It was not his strategy that blew up at Ostagar but King Cailan's idiocy for the most part. Besides, what good would it do him to betray me once conscripted? Ferelden would be handed to the Blight and he'd be a disgraced fugitive. You can actually discuss this with him in camp.

How does betraying the PC hand Fereldan over to the blight? The PC isn't the only brains in the operation.

Regardless we're not going to agree and this is not a Loghain thread.

If he were to betray the Warden Commander while being a Warden himself & after aknowledging the Blight, then yes, it would be handing Ferelden to the Blight. Without the explanation that he cannot be aware just why the Wardens are necessary to end the Blight, given that he is one himself & going through the connection that will eventually end the Blight. (Nightmares, sensing the DP etc.)

[Ryzaki]

Sarah1281 wrote...
 But...I'm NOT saying you should be grateful to Loghain for saving Jowan from the templars and then sending him off to poison Eamon. I'm saying that I don't feel Loghain taking Jowan from a certain-death situation and placing him in a possible-death situation is a reason for a mage that is friends with Jowan to kill Loghain over which is what you said yours do. Please note that I'm not trying to tell you how to play your game, though.

Ah. Well I do feel that's a good reason for my mage. Jowan had run away and gotten caught and was going to be killed when Loghain saves him but places more guilt and innocent blood on Jowan by using him for his own ends.

[Ryzaki]

Persephone wrote...

If he were to betray the Warden Commander while being a Warden himself & after aknowledging the Blight, then yes, it would be handing Ferelden to the Blight. Without the explanation that he cannot be aware just why the Wardens are necessary to end the Blight, given that he is one himself & going through the connection that will eventually end the Blight. (Nightmares, sensing the DP etc.)

Again...how? If he just killed the PC Riordan would step in or Loghain could (depending on how the PC died and if anyone expected foul play).

Not saying he would do it. But it wouldn't cripple Fereldan.

The oaths were too the Wardens not the PC.

Anyways my Wardens don't trust him. Nothing wrong with that. Nothing wrong with how you play either.

[Persephone]

sylvanaerie wrote...

I don't like him, I don't trust him, his plots all blow up in his face (some great general/tactician, he is outbattled and outfoxed throughout the game) and I kill him every playthrough. I haven't found one PC who can resist the urge to lop off his head in me yet. For me that's the most fun in the game, the pandemonium of the Landsmeet. After that its like Bioware had a massive party and forgot about the rest of the game...

I never found the LM to be fun. Either way, I find it to be an utter tragedy, as no one walks away from it unscathed. As a general he is doing fine during the game (Winning every battle since Ostagar). He is not a politician of great skill & I never claimed that he was. But NEVER? I even picked Morinth once over Samara to see the different content, if only out of curiosity. Sparing him opens up a lot of lovely, intense content, as well as one of the most moving endings. My Wardens usually beam/snicker when he tells them that they have earned his respect in the end. (If he survives Archie)

[Persephone]

Ryzaki wrote...

Persephone wrote...

If he were to betray the Warden Commander while being a Warden himself & after aknowledging the Blight, then yes, it would be handing Ferelden to the Blight. Without the explanation that he cannot be aware just why the Wardens are necessary to end the Blight, given that he is one himself & going through the connection that will eventually end the Blight. (Nightmares, sensing the DP etc.)

Again...how? If he just killed the PC Riordan would step in or Loghain could (depending on how the PC died and if anyone expected foul play).

Not saying he would do it. But it wouldn't cripple Fereldan.

The oaths were too the Wardens not the PC.

Anyways my Wardens don't trust him. Nothing wrong with that. Nothing wrong with how you play either.

What would he stand to gain from suck a risky plan, killing the person to whom he owes his life? Nothing. And there'd be red flags all over the place if the PC suddenly died under mysterious circumstances. He is a lot of things, but not that stupid.

[sylvanaerie]

Nope, never have spared him Persephone. Its a major "personality" conflict for me with this particular character. He doesn't do 'fine' as a general. You hear gossips talking about some victories he is winning against the bannorn but Howe tells him that if they don't stop fighting soon they won't have enough men to deal with the darkspawn. That's hardly what I would call "winning". Plus in the one quest you can do in regards to the front, you wipe out Loghain's 'army' of men. You can kill the assassins and bounty hunters he sends after you and even kill that idiot barking at the doors of Orzammar.
*Edit* his 'lack of manpower' is his entire justification for selling the elves to blood mages. 

Modifié par sylvanaerie, 28 novembre 2010 - 11:55 .

[Ryzaki]

Persephone wrote...


What would he stand to gain from suck a risky plan, killing the person to whom he owes his life? Nothing. And there'd be red flags all over the place if the PC suddenly died under mysterious circumstances. He is a lot of things, but not that stupid.

Not really PC is in combat a lot of the time. If he/she depended on him/her to protect him and Loghain decided to let a certain enemy attack right through

Nothing stupid about that.

Though he would stand to gain nothing. And he's not that petty. (I hope).

That said I can't spare him because of the sudden personality shift. One moment "ORLESISAN SPIES!" the next "OMG YOU CAN SAVE FERELDAN <3" 

It was too much.

[Persephone]

sylvanaerie wrote...

Nope, never have spared him Persephone. Its a major "personality" conflict for me with this particular character. He doesn't do 'fine' as a general. You hear gossips talking about some victories he is winning against the bannorn but Howe tells him that if they don't stop fighting soon they won't have enough men to deal with the darkspawn. That's hardly what I would call "winning". Plus in the one quest you can do in regards to the front, you wipe out Loghain's 'army' of men. You can kill the assassins and bounty hunters he sends after you and even kill that idiot barking at the doors of Orzammar.
*Edit* his 'lack of manpower' is his entire justification for selling the elves to blood mages. 

Not even Caesar himself could have won the civil war against Pompey AND defeat a Blight all along. As for the Wardens wiping out his men, tis a game. The Warden HAS TO get to the LM somehow, realism be damned.

[Persephone]

Ryzaki wrote...

Persephone wrote...


What would he stand to gain from suck a risky plan, killing the person to whom he owes his life? Nothing. And there'd be red flags all over the place if the PC suddenly died under mysterious circumstances. He is a lot of things, but not that stupid.

Not really PC is in combat a lot of the time. If he/she depended on him/her to protect him and Loghain decided to let a certain enemy attack right through

Nothing stupid about that.

Though he would stand to gain nothing. And he's not that petty. (I hope).

That said I can't spare him because of the sudden personality shift. One moment "ORLESISAN SPIES!" the next "OMG YOU CAN SAVE FERELDAN <3" 

It was too much.

No, he is not that petty.

You cannot blame the character for what comes across as bad writing to you. Once you beat him, he surrenders. He doesn't expect to live. So why should he await his execution dissing you, esp. with his daughter's future still on the line?

[Ryzaki]

Persephone wrote...

No, he is not that petty.

You cannot blame the character for what comes across as bad writing to you. Once you beat him, he surrenders. He doesn't expect to live. So why should he await his execution dissing you, esp. with his daughter's future still on the line?

When the writing is supposed to support that character yes I can blame the character. I blame Alistair for some writing fumbles as well (Particularly forgetting about the PC's family being slaughtered as a HN).

And I don't have a problem with the dissing. I have a problem with the extremely fast backtracking. He goes from "WTF are you?!?" to "You...you can save us!" though one battle.

Regardless we're not going to agree.

Modifié par Ryzaki, 29 novembre 2010 - 12:11 .

[Persephone]

Ryzaki wrote...

Persephone wrote...

No, he is not that petty.

You cannot blame the character for what comes across as bad writing to you. Once you beat him, he surrenders. He doesn't expect to live. So why should he await his execution dissing you, esp. with his daughter's future still on the line?

When the writing is supposed to support that character yes I can blame the character. I blame Alistair for some writing fumbles as well (Particularly forgetting about the PC's family being slaughtered as a HN).

And I don't have a problem with the dissing. I have a problem with he extremely fast backtracking.

Regardless we're not going to agree.

Obviously not. The way I see it, he is both honest and protecting his daughter as much as he still can.

[Ryzaki]

How do you release Jowan's fool self anyways? Whenever I release him he runs up to Isolde and gets himself caught and I can never release Jowan without Eamon refusing.

[Ryzaki]

Persephone wrote...

Obviously not. The way I see it, he is both honest and protecting his daughter as much as he still can.

Defintely not because I don't see where that so called honestly is. Though I will give the protecting his daughter bit though I wonder what he was doing when she was captured by Howe.

[Persephone]

Ryzaki wrote...

How do you release Jowan's fool self anyways? Whenever I release him he runs up to Isolde and gets himself caught and I can never release Jowan without Eamon refusing.

You have to tell him "I never want to see you again" after you release him from his cell.

[Lord_Anthonior]

Ryzaki wrote...

How do you release Jowan's fool self anyways? Whenever I release him he runs up to Isolde and gets himself caught and I can never release Jowan without Eamon refusing.

I haven't done it because I like sacrificing Isolde with Jowan's help and giving Morrigan some fighting time for exp., but I think in the dialogue while he is still in the cage if chosen: "run, escape I don't want to see you again" makes him get out of the castle and then it's possible to have a random encounter with Jowan helping people while in the travels. At least that's what I read in the wikia.

*haha Persephone beat me to it with the answer.

Modifié par Lord_Anthonior, 29 novembre 2010 - 12:18 .

[sylvanaerie]

Not saying he has to defeat the Blight all by himself, Persephone, just saying his methods are rather ineffective for everyone to be lauding his 'tactical/general' skills. When Anora calls him Ferelden's greatest general I just want to laugh. Admittedly none of Bioware's writers are 'great generals' so perhaps the flaw in his character lies there but I find that one of the biggest discrepancies in the game.

He won the war against Orlais 30 years ago. Since then he has wracked up no actual combat experience prior to Ostagar, won a few battles there and the last one (he did the strategy for it and we don't know if it would have succeeded or not I WILL give him that much credit) definitely was a massive loss of manpower in addition to killing most of the Grey Wardens in the country. Admittedly no one knows WHY the GW's are needed to stop a blight but its generally accepted by everyone that they ARE. Anyone who looks at the history of Thedas would see that esp during the first Blight which lasts nearly a century.

On top of that he focuses on the civil war and ignores the darkspawn in the south, even arguing with Howe and Anora when they try to tell him they need to focus on THAT enemy. But he seems to think he alone can end the threat. I don't think the archdemon would accept a one on one challenge but *shrug* I suppose Loghain would be welcome to try. If nothing else the AD might do it for the lulz.

[Addai]

*spoilers for The Calling*



Not sure why we are talking about Loghain again in this thread, but re. not winning any battles since the war with Orlais, that is not the case. He routs the attempted takeover of the Circle Tower in The Calling (basically an Orlesian invasion).

Modifié par Addai67, 29 novembre 2010 - 12:26 .

[Persephone]

sylvanaerie wrote...
He won the war against Orlais 30 years ago. Since then he has wracked up no actual combat experience prior to Ostagar, .

You obviously haven't read The Calling.