472 réponses à ce sujet

[KnightofPhoenix]

Axekix wrote...

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

The capacity to command men is a very valuable skill, one that would be required in a time such as the Blight. I'll take that over physical prowess any day.

Except Loghain doesn't really command anyone if you take him with you.  He's just another lackey with the Warden calling the shots. 

Unfortunately, yes. I thought we could have given him some kind of command after recruiting him and make use of his military genius, but alas that didn't happen.

Still, one can always rp that Loghain commanded and was helpful during the final phase of the Blight. 

[Ryzaki]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Made the sentence more accurate, Alistair was not necessary in any way. 
And it was the Warden's leadership that was crucial, not necesarrily physical prowess, even if we ended up being a one man army.

What leadership? You could be the biggest douche and worst leader on the planet and everyone still follows you beccause the plot demands it.

It wasn't leadership. It was doing everyone's chores for them so they actually upheld their oaths.

And it was physical prowess becaue every five minutes you had to smash in someone's skull to make them see reason.

Modifié par Ryzaki, 29 novembre 2010 - 04:06 .

[KnightofPhoenix]

Ryzaki wrote...
What leadership? You could be the biggest douche and worst leader on the planet and everyone still follows you beccause the plot demands it.

It wasn't leadership. It was doing everyone's chores for them so they actually upheld their oaths.

The Landsmeet ends up with declaring you as commander of the armies you've gathered. Even if you are a moron yes. But the plot demands that you are a decent leader at the very least.

The Warden can't be the worst leader on the planet because he / she ends up winning. So by definition, he / she can't be the worst leader, sadly.

Modifié par KnightofPhoenix, 29 novembre 2010 - 04:08 .

[sylvanaerie]

Sorry KoP the PC has Loghain beat on that score as well. He has a bunch of loyal flunkies (Like Cauthrian who has her head so far up his bum its hard to tell where he ends and she begins) and some not very bright troops *points to those idiots in the tavern in Lothering* and other assorted idiots around the country. Don't see how this is 'the ability to command men' as the bannorn and their troops sure aren't obeying him.

Loghain may have been hot stuff 30 years ago during TST but his skills as a commander/tactician have grown rusty with disuse. It was his strategy at Ostagar he lost faith in at the last moment in the face of the enemy. He fights a civil war that both his right hand man (Howe) and his queen (Anora) tell him is foolish with the Blight clawing at the land. His rampant and out of control paranoia about the perceived enemy (Orlesians) causes him to ignore the ACTUAL enemy destroying Ferelden (the AD).

Most of the game I spend just wanting to b*tchslap him and tell him "Attend to reality".

[Ryzaki]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

The Landsmeet ends up with declaring you as commander of the armies you've gathered. Even if you are a moron yes. But the plot demands that you are a decent leader at the very least.

The Warden can't be the worst leader on the planet because he / she ends up winning. So by definition, he / she can't be the worst leader, sadly.

Uh not really. The armies all have "leaders" it could easily be said Riordan did a lot of the strageizing. All of those armies don't join you because of your leadership abilities but because you did their chores .

You could've killed every single killable companion and have the remaining ones loathe you (except for dog) how exactly is that a good leader? 

Winning a battle does not a good leader make. Just means you know how to kill things. (Well that and the soldiers know how to kill things and work together.)

Modifié par Ryzaki, 29 novembre 2010 - 04:11 .

[Axekix]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Ryzaki wrote...
What leadership? You could be the biggest douche and worst leader on the planet and everyone still follows you beccause the plot demands it.

It wasn't leadership. It was doing everyone's chores for them so they actually upheld their oaths.

The Landsmeet ends up with declaring you as commander of the armies you've gathered. Even if you are a moron yes. But the plot demands that you are a decent leader at the very least.

The Warden can't be the worst leader on the planet because he / she ends up winning. So by definition, he / she can't be the worst leader, sadly.

I wouldn't go that far.  The armies are just left in charge of holding the gates while the Warden cuts through the city then stomps the AD.  If anything I'd say it's more a credit to the Warden's martial skill than military strategy.

[Ryzaki]

True. The Warden has the Murder Knife he/she can beat the mess out of most people.



...I so want to play a hulk smash playthrough now with really low cunning but high strength and just kill/bully everyone.

[Addai]

Axekix wrote...
I think she was just rebutting the claim someone else made that Loghain is in amazing shape or something (tbh I'm just skimming this thread).  He's a brilliant military mind (his takeover of Fereldan was very cunning), but canonically speaking Alistair is the better fighter, considering he beats him in DSC as well. 

He's quite good at telling other people what to do!  Not so good at taking matters into his own hands apparently...

Ah, I must have missed the context.  Well as I said, Morrigan does comment on him being taller and younger than she expected.  She is obviously sizing him up.    It's a wonder she doesn't ask for a sperm count.  Ahem...

Anyway, yes he is scripted to lose the duel, so canonically the Warden or anyone in the PC's party is a better fighter.  That's the way the game dice roll.  All hail General Wynne!

[KnightofPhoenix]

sylvanaerie wrote...

Sorry KoP the PC has Loghain beat on that score as well.

Never denied that and I dont' see the relevence.

Ryzaki wrote...
Uh not really. The armies all have "leaders" it could easily be said Riordan did a lot of the strageizing.

The Landmseet makes you the commander of Ferelden's army at the very least.

But sure, you can play someone who had no inclination towards strategy and the like. Whatever floats your boat. 

[sylvanaerie]

Ryzaki wrote...

True. The Warden has the Murder Knife he/she can beat the mess out of most people.

...I so want to play a hulk smash playthrough now with really low cunning but high strength and just kill/bully everyone.

Oddly enough that sounds like fun...

[Ryzaki]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

The Landmseet makes you the commander of Ferelden's army at the very least.

But sure, you can play someone who had no inclination towards strategy and the like. Whatever floats your boat. 

Yeah and I get the feeling it was far more ceremonial than anything concerete. Everyone was under your bannerand would listen to what you had to say but by no means did you have complete control and frankly you really didn't.You march to FD and call people when you need to but other than that you're pretty hands off. (I refuse to believe they're stupid enough to let someone who doesn't even know how war stragety works in some cases be a general).

Modifié par Ryzaki, 29 novembre 2010 - 04:16 .

[Axekix]

sylvanaerie wrote...

Ryzaki wrote...

True. The Warden has the Murder Knife he/she can beat the mess out of most people.

...I so want to play a hulk smash playthrough now with really low cunning but high strength and just kill/bully everyone.

Oddly enough that sounds like fun...

That's how I roll my 2H War.  Fun times!

[Urazz]

Rykoth wrote...

As an aspiring fantasy author, I'll tell you why I personally like him. He is a hero, who is both reluctant, and far too humble for his own good. Unless you harden him, he's pretty much a do gooder, hell, he doesn't want to be the king, but dammit, if you make him king, he turns out to be a great one. Unless you make Anora queen and let a certain Teyrn live, Alistair goes through IMO, an interesting hero's journey.

Actually, even if you harden him, he's still a do gooder.  He's just a bit more selfish.  I.E. He's open to a threesome with Isabela and the female warden (if they are in a relationship if I recall) and will still marry Anora if Loghain is kept alive (if you arranged the marriage anyways).

[KnightofPhoenix]

Ryzaki wrote...

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

The Landmseet makes you the commander of Ferelden's army at the very least.

But sure, you can play someone who had no inclination towards strategy and the like. Whatever floats your boat. 

Yeah and I get the feeling it was far more ceremonial than anything concerete. (I refuse to believe they're stupid enough to let someone who doesn't even know how war stragety works in some cases be a general).

They are stupid enough to let a duel overrule whatever decision they took.

It depends on what kind of character I am playing. For some, I see it not as ceremonial, but as effective and de facto. And ceremonial for others.

[Ryzaki]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

They are stupid enough to let a duel overrule whatever decision they took.

It depends on what kind of character I am playing. For some, I see it not as ceremonial, but as effective and de facto. And ceremonial for others.

I forgot about that. <_<

One has to wonder how bright Orlais was to be outwitted by Fereldan.

Ah. I see it as merely ceremonial in all my games. None of my characters have fought in wars and as such would defer a lot of the responsibilities onto Riordan. He might as well be useful before becoming archedemon chow.

That said them making you general doesn't automatically make the PC a good leader. Which...was my point before I got backtracked.

That said if my hulk smash 2HD is the general of Fereldan..

Modifié par Ryzaki, 29 novembre 2010 - 04:21 .

[Addai]

sylvanaerie wrote...

Sorry KoP the PC has Loghain beat on that score as well. He has a bunch of loyal flunkies (Like Cauthrian who has her head so far up his bum its hard to tell where he ends and she begins) and some not very bright troops *points to those idiots in the tavern in Lothering* and other assorted idiots around the country. Don't see how this is 'the ability to command men' as the bannorn and their troops sure aren't obeying him.
Loghain may have been hot stuff 30 years ago during TST but his skills as a commander/tactician have grown rusty with disuse. It was his strategy at Ostagar he lost faith in at the last moment in the face of the enemy. He fights a civil war that both his right hand man (Howe) and his queen (Anora) tell him is foolish with the Blight clawing at the land. His rampant and out of control paranoia about the perceived enemy (Orlesians) causes him to ignore the ACTUAL enemy destroying Ferelden (the AD).
Most of the game I spend just wanting to b*tchslap him and tell him "Attend to reality".

He does show trouble holding command in Origins, and he does make disastrous mistakes.  That's one of the tragedies of Origins to my mind, whereas obviously you see it as a satisfying good vs. evil story and that's fine too.  However I think you are exaggerating how poorly Loghain performs.  Even given the godlike nature of the PC- the punk kid and his ragtag band beating all odds just as in TST the rebels do- Loghain very nearly pulls it off.  It is hard to beat him without getting his daughter to turn on him in the Landsmeet.  Of course it would all have been an even bigger tragedy had the PC failed, but that's another story.

Modifié par Addai67, 29 novembre 2010 - 04:20 .

[sylvanaerie]

Ryzaki wrote...

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

The Landmseet makes you the commander of Ferelden's army at the very least.

But sure, you can play someone who had no inclination towards strategy and the like. Whatever floats your boat. 

Yeah and I get the feeling it was far more ceremonial than anything concerete. Everyone was under your bannerand would listen to what you had to say but by no means did you have complete control and frankly you really didn't.You march to FD and call people when you need to but other than that you're pretty hands off. (I refuse to believe they're stupid enough to let someone who doesn't even know how war stragety works in some cases be a general).

I can easily seeing a Cousland or an Aeducan being as good as or better than Loghain.  Esp the Aeducan as they have more hands on experience with the enemy they will be fighting in the final battle.
Other origins....not so much.  I tend to think Neria was just in the right place at the right time and got really damn lucky.

[Ryzaki]

sylvanaerie wrote...

I can easily seeing a Cousland or an Aeducan being as good as or better than Loghain.  Esp the Aeducan as they have more hands on experience with the enemy they will be fighting in the final battle.
Other origins....not so much.  I tend to think Neria was just in the right place at the right time and got really damn lucky.

Cousland for me...not so much Aeducan on the other hand easily. But CE/DE/DC and Mage I just don't see it. Maybe if the mage spent most of his/her time reading war books but even that to me is pushing it.

[Axekix]

Ryzaki wrote...

sylvanaerie wrote...

I can easily seeing a Cousland or an Aeducan being as good as or better than Loghain.  Esp the Aeducan as they have more hands on experience with the enemy they will be fighting in the final battle.
Other origins....not so much.  I tend to think Neria was just in the right place at the right time and got really damn lucky.

Cousland for me...not so much Aeducan on the other hand easily. But CE/DE/DC and Mage I just don't see it. Maybe if the mage spent most of his/her time reading war books but even that to me is pushing it.

Especially DE... Maker knows they can't win a war to save their lives... literally.

Modifié par Axekix, 29 novembre 2010 - 04:24 .

[KnightofPhoenix]

Ryzaki wrote...
Ah. I see it as merely ceremonial in all my games. None of my characters have fought in wars and as such would defer a lot of the responsibilities onto Riordan. He might as well be useful before becoming archedemon chow.

A Dwarf Noble is assigned to be commander of an expedition (even if he goes to look for a shield instead), so it can be RPed that he / she recieved training and has experience fighting darkspawn.

A Human Noble is said to be more likely to inherit Bryce than Fergus and is given command of a garrison and the entire Ternir when Fergus and Bryce were supposed to head for Ostagar. That too makes it possible to rp that the Cousland has had some military experience.

Not sure about the other origins though, but some people are natural leaders. Who would have thought Loghain would be good at it in TST, he was a nobody and he had no experience.

Modifié par KnightofPhoenix, 29 novembre 2010 - 04:25 .

[Addai]

sylvanaerie wrote...

I can easily seeing a Cousland or an Aeducan being as good as or better than Loghain.  Esp the Aeducan as they have more hands on experience with the enemy they will be fighting in the final battle.
Other origins....not so much.  I tend to think Neria was just in the right place at the right time and got really damn lucky.

If you're going on combat experience alone, Loghain had had as much as any of the Origins PCs by the time he was their age.  And much more after that, including darkspawn in the Deep Roads in TST.  Even an Aeducan would not have been fighting darkspawn as an everyday occurrence.

[Ryzaki]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Ryzaki wrote...
Ah. I see it as merely ceremonial in all my games. None of my characters have fought in wars and as such would defer a lot of the responsibilities onto Riordan. He might as well be useful before becoming archedemon chow.

A Dwarf Noble is assigned to be commander of an expedition (even if he goes to look for a shield instead), so it can be RPed that he / she recieved training and has experience fighting darkspawn.

A Human Noble is said to be more likely to inherit Bryce than Fergus and is given command of a garrison and the entire Ternir when Fergus and Bryce were supposed to head for Ostagar. That too makes it possible to rp that the Cousland has had some military experience.

Not sure about the other origins though, but some people are natural leaders. Who would have thought Loghain would be good at it in TST, he was a nobody and he had no experience.

Yeah...I kind of said that already KoP .

Wait...where is it said you're more likely to inherit than Fergus? I didn't see that anywhere. Hell one of the options as you're running away is to tell Fergus that he is the new Teryn.

[sylvanaerie]

Well I say "Cousland" because she would be educated in battle strategy and this will be honed by time in the field actually killiing darkspawn.
But the one who would really shine against the Blight is an Aeducan IMO. She's a commander of her own troops in Orzammar, has hands on experience with the enemy. Sereda was the ONLY one of the origins I played WANTED to be a GW even without being conscripted or forced into it by circumstance.
Kinda made me sad i still had to go through with that whole Bhelen knifing her in the back instead of just saying "hey, Dad, I'm gonna go be a GW now, kkthxbai"

*Edit* if you talk to Dairren in the library in the HN origin he says that about the PC Cousland being more likely to become the next Teyrn (though personally I think is just a rumor).

Modifié par sylvanaerie, 29 novembre 2010 - 04:29 .

[Ryzaki]

Axekix wrote...

Especially DE... Maker knows they can't win a war to save their lives... literally.

What stuns me is that supposedly everyone's A-OK with having an elf as a general! No one says anything!

[KnightofPhoenix]

Ryzaki wrote...
Yeah...I kind of said that already KoP .

I was typing this when you did.

Ryzaki wrote...
Wait...where is it said you're more likely to inherit than Fergus? I didn't see that anywhere. Hell one of the options as you're running away is to tell Fergus that he is the new Teryn.

I think Dairhan whatever his name is said it.
I just played the origin recently, I am certain it is said, most likely by dairhan.