472 réponses à ce sujet

[Maria13]

Glaucon wrote...

Maria13 wrote...

@ Glaucon, I'm enjoying this.

He may not try hard enough, but he tries he is young and impatient...

My view is that when he leaves the Chantry, there's a major battle which is lost and a long hard campaign against the Blight... He has no real time to enjoy the freedom of being a GW. One of the reasons I started to write my FF, I wanted to get him to a place where he could begin to enjoy what life has to offer...

I understand.  I'm minded of a comment by the camp fire where Alistair notes that it is better than the stables: Even here he is retrospective.  To state that he is carrying a lot of baggage is too obvious but to claim that he 'needs' that baggage ,imo, isn't.  I think Alistair has dis-comfort blanket and that to me renders him a coward.  

This could well be the case, but since he's barely 21, he hasn't been given the time or the opportunity to shake it off...

[Addai]

Sueno wrote...

Addai67 wrote...

@Sueno, it may simply be that Alistair's romance is not for you and there's nothing wrong with that. Just replay and try one of the other romances. They're all well written and fun to play. Morrigan and Zevran are of a different type, the hardened sort you have to crack, whereas Leliana is another romantic softie.

Oh, no, I didn't ask this question to find out why Alistair wasn't working for me. Being a English major with a focus in creative writing I immensly like having discussions about characterization. Alistair worked well as a romance option for quite a few females so I'm just curious about what was done right.

Ha-ha, at least I'm not asking whether or not Alistair has agency and what it is or when did he gain it . Unless you guys want to go that route...cause I am so game.

Ah, well on a similar thread Gaider responded that he's "a woobie, but not a very obvious one."  Some argue whether it's obvious or not.  So that's the pattern the writer was going for.  Voice acting comes into play, as well.  Steve Valentine is pure gold for many of us.

[Addai]

Glaucon wrote...

@Addai67

What's a woobie?

Link

@Sueno, another note on the character inspiration- apparently Alistair was inspired by the characters of Xander from Buffy the Vampire Slayer and Mal from Firefly.

[Ashaman X]

I've had 2 complete playthoughs of Origins, both with mages, 1 male and 1 female. For the male, Alistair and him really became as close as brothers, as they went along. Daylen was a good leader, but as he wasn't fully aware of what to do in the outside world, Alistair sometimes provided a sounding board for ideas and actions. As a guy, I liked that Alistair could be a terror in a fight, but not afraid to tell you in camp that Duncan's death tore him up. That I think cemented them as brothers no matter what. His humour was also a good tension breaker at times, he often made me laugh. Licking a lampost in winter was just hilarious between those two.



When I played my female however, Roxanne also bonded to him as a brother, but she felt awkward when he started making indirect advances towards her. I didn't like the fact that he presented the rose to her, though it was a sweet idea. I just think that by that point, he should have realised that Roxanne was totally in love with Leliana. However, my respect for him shot up again when she told him outright that she wasn't interested, and he respected that. He didn't make passes again, and they continued the brother and sister type relationship.



I'm currently playing a female noble that will end up romancing him, so I will see what it is like.



Overall, he is the hub around which much of the game rotates. Depending on how you play, your mood, your gender of your pc and your intentions, how you perceive Alistair changes I think. Sometimes he is really whiny and annoying, other times he's just the king of cool. What I think I'm trying to say is that in the end, he is probably one of the most realistic npc's in the entire game.

[Sueno]

Addai67 wrote...

Glaucon wrote...

@Addai67

What's a woobie?

Link

@Sueno, another note on the character inspiration- apparently Alistair was inspired by the characters of Xander from Buffy the Vampire Slayer and Mal from Firefly.

Ah, so he's a Whedon fan, that explains a lot. Now I need to look up on those two characters and compare them to Alistair.

You said Alistair is supposed to be a woobie and maybe this was the intention but it just didn't work for me. After reading the link you provided I'm not sure what type of woobie Alistair is. Other characters had a tendency to pick on Alistair but it seemed very similar to the way my siblings and I pick on each other, so for me I don't see how that might add to his woobie stats. I think what Alistair lacked was me seeing his suffering. There's a lot of him telling us and one of the things that has been drilled into me is to show not tell the audience what the character is going through. I think Alistair (as well as the majority if the characters in DA) would have benefited if we  saw more of what made them who they are. Alistair might be a woobie, but this is based only on what he tells us about his past. And because Alistair comes off more as whiny to me I just couldn't find him endearing.

[Addai]

Sueno wrote...

You said Alistair is supposed to be a woobie and maybe this was the intention but it just didn't work for me. After reading the link you provided I'm not sure what type of woobie Alistair is. Other characters had a tendency to pick on Alistair but it seemed very similar to the way my siblings and I pick on each other, so for me I don't see how that might add to his woobie stats. I think what Alistair lacked was me seeing his suffering. There's a lot of him telling us and one of the things that has been drilled into me is to show not tell the audience what the character is going through. I think Alistair (as well as the majority if the characters in DA) would have benefited if we  saw more of what made them who they are. Alistair might be a woobie, but this is based only on what he tells us about his past. And because Alistair comes off more as whiny to me I just couldn't find him endearing.

None of the NPCs can show you their history, except for their Fade dreams where you do get some good character insights.  How are they supposed to do character back story but for in dialogue?  You can glean a little of it in Alistair's case by talking to Teagan and Eamon, even Anora, but like your PC, all of the NPCs are ripped out of their primary relationships and home settings.  Oh, and as I mentioned upthread, I felt I understood Alistair better when I read the companion novels.  These tell Maric's story in great detail, and Alistair is a chip off the old block.

Modifié par Addai67, 26 novembre 2010 - 08:52 .

[Sueno]

Addai67 wrote...

Sueno wrote...

You said Alistair is supposed to be a woobie and maybe this was the intention but it just didn't work for me. After reading the link you provided I'm not sure what type of woobie Alistair is. Other characters had a tendency to pick on Alistair but it seemed very similar to the way my siblings and I pick on each other, so for me I don't see how that might add to his woobie stats. I think what Alistair lacked was me seeing his suffering. There's a lot of him telling us and one of the things that has been drilled into me is to show not tell the audience what the character is going through. I think Alistair (as well as the majority if the characters in DA) would have benefited if we  saw more of what made them who they are. Alistair might be a woobie, but this is based only on what he tells us about his past. And because Alistair comes off more as whiny to me I just couldn't find him endearing.

None of the NPCs can show you their history, except for their Fade dreams where you do get some good character insights.  How are they supposed to do character back story but for in dialogue?  You can glean a little of it in Alistair's case by talking to Teagan and Eamon, even Anora, but like your PC, all of the NPCs are ripped out of their primary relationships and home settings.  Oh, and as I mentioned upthread, I felt I understood Alistair better when I read the companion novels.  These tell Maric's story in great detail, and Alistair is a chip off the old block.

I don't mean to imply the past needs to be viewable somehow. I belive they need to work in more incidents such as the fade where who that character is becomes visible. I think having more npc speak directly with the party members instead of the grey warden would have helped. Maybe an npc goes to Alistair for help but Alistair is unable to make up his mind and keeps asking the Grey Warden to deal with it would be a great way to highlight his reluctancy to lead. Basically more little brushstrokes, such as meeting his sister, would add up to make a vivid picture of who each character is. There were too few of these moments in DA. I'm not a girl easily wooed by a words of flattery and a rose, mostly because far to many guys I know have used these tactics to woo me. Showing me Alistair is sincere by his interactions with other characters would have probably won me over than me learning he is sincere because I am told so by other npc's observations.

[Skadi_the_Evil_Elf]

Why do I like Alistair, why he is my favorite character as well as my primary and most frequent LI?



Because he's so screwed up, so mental, coupled with a desire to do what he thinks is the right thing. He is pretty impulsive, complete heart over head type. In trying to do what he believes is right he can end up screwing things up even more, and he is still incredibly naieve about how the world really works. His unrealistic hopes and dreams make him quite refreshing in a world that is often crushingly pragmatic and ruthless.



He is alot like the rose he picked in Lothering, something that if not picked and cared for, can end up becoming corrupted in the tide of darkness that is more prevalent.

[Maria13]

Skadi_the_Evil_Elf wrote...

Why do I like Alistair, why he is my favorite character as well as my primary and most frequent LI?

Because he's so screwed up, so mental, coupled with a desire to do what he thinks is the right thing. He is pretty impulsive, complete heart over head type. In trying to do what he believes is right he can end up screwing things up even more, and he is still incredibly naieve about how the world really works. His unrealistic hopes and dreams make him quite refreshing in a world that is often crushingly pragmatic and ruthless.

He is alot like the rose he picked in Lothering, something that if not picked and cared for, can end up becoming corrupted in the tide of darkness that is more prevalent.

Skadi, that's a good analogy...

[Maria13]

Sueno wrote...

Addai67 wrote...

Sueno wrote...

You said Alistair is supposed to be a woobie and maybe this was the intention but it just didn't work for me. After reading the link you provided I'm not sure what type of woobie Alistair is. Other characters had a tendency to pick on Alistair but it seemed very similar to the way my siblings and I pick on each other, so for me I don't see how that might add to his woobie stats. I think what Alistair lacked was me seeing his suffering. There's a lot of him telling us and one of the things that has been drilled into me is to show not tell the audience what the character is going through. I think Alistair (as well as the majority if the characters in DA) would have benefited if we  saw more of what made them who they are. Alistair might be a woobie, but this is based only on what he tells us about his past. And because Alistair comes off more as whiny to me I just couldn't find him endearing.

None of the NPCs can show you their history, except for their Fade dreams where you do get some good character insights.  How are they supposed to do character back story but for in dialogue?  You can glean a little of it in Alistair's case by talking to Teagan and Eamon, even Anora, but like your PC, all of the NPCs are ripped out of their primary relationships and home settings.  Oh, and as I mentioned upthread, I felt I understood Alistair better when I read the companion novels.  These tell Maric's story in great detail, and Alistair is a chip off the old block.

I don't mean to imply the past needs to be viewable somehow. I belive they need to work in more incidents such as the fade where who that character is becomes visible. I think having more npc speak directly with the party members instead of the grey warden would have helped. Maybe an npc goes to Alistair for help but Alistair is unable to make up his mind and keeps asking the Grey Warden to deal with it would be a great way to highlight his reluctancy to lead. Basically more little brushstrokes, such as meeting his sister, would add up to make a vivid picture of who each character is. There were too few of these moments in DA. I'm not a girl easily wooed by a words of flattery and a rose, mostly because far to many guys I know have used these tactics to woo me. Showing me Alistair is sincere by his interactions with other characters would have probably won me over than me learning he is sincere because I am told so by other npc's observations.

I think more than most NPCs Ali is given the chance to explain himself... But you have to offer him the prompts, for example, his explanation as to why he failed to become a Templar is pretty shattering, "They put a demon in a girl to see if she could resist. She couldn't. We had to end it... Quickly."

[Sarah1281]

I think more than most NPCs Ali is given the chance to explain himself... But you have to offer him the prompts, for example, his explanation as to why he failed to become a Templar is pretty shattering, "They put a demon in a girl to see if she could resist. She couldn't. We had to end it... Quickly."

Does he say that his poor reaction to that was why he hadn't become a templar yet?

[Maria13]

Sarah1281 wrote...

I think more than most NPCs Ali is given the chance to explain himself... But you have to offer him the prompts, for example, his explanation as to why he failed to become a Templar is pretty shattering, "They put a demon in a girl to see if she could resist. She couldn't. We had to end it... Quickly."

Does he say that his poor reaction to that was why he hadn't become a templar yet?

I think he goes on to say something like, "Well that's when I decided being a Templar wasn't for me..." I'm not canny enough to use the toolset... Grateful if someone could confirm...

[Sueno]

Maria13 wrote...

Sueno wrote...

Addai67 wrote...

Sueno wrote...

You said Alistair is supposed to be a woobie and maybe this was the intention but it just didn't work for me. After reading the link you provided I'm not sure what type of woobie Alistair is. Other characters had a tendency to pick on Alistair but it seemed very similar to the way my siblings and I pick on each other, so for me I don't see how that might add to his woobie stats. I think what Alistair lacked was me seeing his suffering. There's a lot of him telling us and one of the things that has been drilled into me is to show not tell the audience what the character is going through. I think Alistair (as well as the majority if the characters in DA) would have benefited if we  saw more of what made them who they are. Alistair might be a woobie, but this is based only on what he tells us about his past. And because Alistair comes off more as whiny to me I just couldn't find him endearing.

None of the NPCs can show you their history, except for their Fade dreams where you do get some good character insights.  How are they supposed to do character back story but for in dialogue?  You can glean a little of it in Alistair's case by talking to Teagan and Eamon, even Anora, but like your PC, all of the NPCs are ripped out of their primary relationships and home settings.  Oh, and as I mentioned upthread, I felt I understood Alistair better when I read the companion novels.  These tell Maric's story in great detail, and Alistair is a chip off the old block.

I don't mean to imply the past needs to be viewable somehow. I belive they need to work in more incidents such as the fade where who that character is becomes visible. I think having more npc speak directly with the party members instead of the grey warden would have helped. Maybe an npc goes to Alistair for help but Alistair is unable to make up his mind and keeps asking the Grey Warden to deal with it would be a great way to highlight his reluctancy to lead. Basically more little brushstrokes, such as meeting his sister, would add up to make a vivid picture of who each character is. There were too few of these moments in DA. I'm not a girl easily wooed by a words of flattery and a rose, mostly because far to many guys I know have used these tactics to woo me. Showing me Alistair is sincere by his interactions with other characters would have probably won me over than me learning he is sincere because I am told so by other npc's observations.

I think more than most NPCs Ali is given the chance to explain himself... But you have to offer him the prompts, for example, his explanation as to why he failed to become a Templar is pretty shattering, "They put a demon in a girl to see if she could resist. She couldn't. We had to end it... Quickly."

As I stated above this is more of Alistair telling us about him instead of allowing the plot having character development interwoven into it. I believe Bioware pulled this off flawlessly with the character Mordin from Mass Effect 2 and and the genophage storyline. Mordin tells us he's worked on the genophage but then there's an actual mission which shows how Mordin's descions affected him. Furthermore, depending how you play the game, Mordin's own perceptions will have changed based on what takes place during the mission. I would like to see more of this in DA but not huge character missions. Just small like brushstrokes like I outlined above.

[Sarah1281]

PC: Have you hunted many mages?

Alistair: I was only present during one Harrowing. That was all I needed, too. I don't know how anyone could get through that./I was only present during one Harrowing, the ritual that they test the mages with. It's not unlike our Joining, really, and... just as deadly. The girl they tested... she had a demon put inside her, to see if she could resist. And she couldn't. We had to... end it quickly. I have to say I didn't have much interest in becoming a templar after that.



I don't think that, since Alistair had no choice about being a templar in the first place and Duncan was forced to conscript him before the revered mother would let him go, this was why he hadn't become one when Duncan met him. It's possible he started sabotaging himself to try to delay the vows or to somehow be told he's not qualified to be a templar but who knows.

[Maria13]

Sarah1281 wrote...

PC: Have you hunted many mages?
Alistair: I was only present during one Harrowing. That was all I needed, too. I don't know how anyone could get through that./I was only present during one Harrowing, the ritual that they test the mages with. It's not unlike our Joining, really, and... just as deadly. The girl they tested... she had a demon put inside her, to see if she could resist. And she couldn't. We had to... end it quickly. I have to say I didn't have much interest in becoming a templar after that.

I don't think that, since Alistair had no choice about being a templar in the first place and Duncan was forced to conscript him before the revered mother would let him go, this was why he hadn't become one when Duncan met him. It's possible he started sabotaging himself to try to delay the vows or to somehow be told he's not qualified to be a templar but who knows.

I think self-sabotage was very much the case, given his rather sceptical later view of the Chantry and what he says he would have done if made a Templar... I.e. slaughtered the Grand Cleric in his smallclothes, one of Ali's finest virtues is that he knows his limits and is capable of mocking himself... He also recalls being the class joker and being expelled and punished.

Modifié par Maria13, 26 novembre 2010 - 09:59 .

[Addai]

Sueno wrote...

I don't mean to imply the past needs to be viewable somehow. I belive they need to work in more incidents such as the fade where who that character is becomes visible. I think having more npc speak directly with the party members instead of the grey warden would have helped. Maybe an npc goes to Alistair for help but Alistair is unable to make up his mind and keeps asking the Grey Warden to deal with it would be a great way to highlight his reluctancy to lead. Basically more little brushstrokes, such as meeting his sister, would add up to make a vivid picture of who each character is. There were too few of these moments in DA. I'm not a girl easily wooed by a words of flattery and a rose, mostly because far to many guys I know have used these tactics to woo me. Showing me Alistair is sincere by his interactions with other characters would have probably won me over than me learning he is sincere because I am told so by other npc's observations.

It is probably a matter of expectations.  I came to DA with limited experience with other games and very low expectations for a toon game.  Most of my previous gaming was in text RPG with some pretty talented writers.  So I was blown away at the ability of a toon game to be so literate and absorbing within the limitations of that medium.

I find it difficult to believe you could doubt Alistair's sincerity.  If anything he comes across as too earnest and guileless.  But, each person will be struck by different things.  I was quite disarmed by the humor combined with his sweetness, and by there not being a catch to it, at least not in terms of Alistair's own intentions towards his LI.  His birthright is a big fly in the honey, of course.

Modifié par Addai67, 26 novembre 2010 - 10:24 .

[Pushover1985]

Alistair is, for me, the most interesting character in the game. I like him when we're BFFs, I like him when I romance him and I still like him when he hates my guts. He has interesting/funny things to say, as well as touching and emotional things. Plus he's charming. And good looking. Hell I want to BE Alistair and marry him at the same time.

[Sueno]

Addai67 wrote...

Sueno wrote...

I don't mean to imply the past needs to be viewable somehow. I belive they need to work in more incidents such as the fade where who that character is becomes visible. I think having more npc speak directly with the party members instead of the grey warden would have helped. Maybe an npc goes to Alistair for help but Alistair is unable to make up his mind and keeps asking the Grey Warden to deal with it would be a great way to highlight his reluctancy to lead. Basically more little brushstrokes, such as meeting his sister, would add up to make a vivid picture of who each character is. There were too few of these moments in DA. I'm not a girl easily wooed by a words of flattery and a rose, mostly because far to many guys I know have used these tactics to woo me. Showing me Alistair is sincere by his interactions with other characters would have probably won me over than me learning he is sincere because I am told so by other npc's observations.

It is probably a matter of expectations.  I came to DA with limited experience with other games and very low expectations for a toon game.  Most of my previous gaming was in text RPG with some pretty talented writers.  So I was blown away at the ability of a toon game to be so literate and absorbing within the limitations of that medium.

That said, I find it difficult to believe you could doubt Alistair's sincerity.  If anything he comes across as too earnest and guileless.  But, each person will be struck by different things.  I was quite disarmed by the humor combined with his sweetness, and by there not being a catch to it, at least not in terms of Alistair's own intentions towards his LI.  His birthright is a big fly in the honey, of course.

May I ask you to provide the scene you found Alistair to be sweet and/or sincere in so we can discuss it. I do believe we get more of people telling us about Alistair than him actually showing (not telling) us who he is. A great example of this is everyone telling the grey warden he is a crybaby. I don't recall ever seeing the guy cry, but it will always come up as a dialouge option for the grey warden or someone will bring it up in conversation. It would have been more powerful for me to see this in action than to have it told to me.

[Addai]

Sueno wrote...

May I ask you to provide the scene you found Alistair to be sweet and/or sincere in so we can discuss it. I do believe we get more of people telling us about Alistair than him actually showing (not telling) us who he is. A great example of this is everyone telling the grey warden he is a crybaby. I don't recall ever seeing the guy cry, but it will always come up as a dialouge option for the grey warden or someone will bring it up in conversation. It would have been more powerful for me to see this in action than to have it told to me.

Ok, I'll show you.  Scene 1 is my PC talking to Alistair about Duncan and about her culture.  Keep in mind she has been ripped from that culture and most other people have been insulting to her about it. (Don't mind the modded Alistair in the video.).  Scene 2 on the same character and not long after, he confesses his birthright, and at the end of the conversation tells this Warden he barely knows that she's the reason he thinks he was lucky to survive.  Dalish Warden mind, blown.