472 réponses à ce sujet

[Sabariel]

Zjarcal wrote...

Sabariel wrote...

I stand corrected! Though at that point Alistair wasn't speaking of a potential friend/lover of the Warden and some random woman claiming to have visions and wanting to come with you out of the blue does seem a little crazy... which is why I didn't recruit Leliana in my first playthrough

Yeah, I have to agree with that. At the moment you weren't in a relationship with Leliana so you can't really get mad at him for calling her crazy right there. It's not like some of my wardens haven't asked for a further explanation from her... 

(I LOVE YOU LELI!)

But I do somewhat resent the way she speaks of her during his "gossip" conversation. Actually, I just flat out hate that conversation. I hate the idea of gossiping about people and talking behind their backs.

Which gossip conversation is that? The one of the Orlesian bards? My mind is drawing a complete blank since there's lots of gossip going on behind the Warden's back .

[Janni-in-VA]

It's a reference to the conversation when Alistair asks your opinion of various party members.

[Zjarcal]

Sabariel wrote...
Which gossip conversation is that? The one of the Orlesian bards? My mind is drawing a complete blank since there's lots of gossip going on behind the Warden's back .

The gossip conversation Alistair has once he reaches "friendly" status, when he asks your opinion about all your companions.

EDIT: Ninja'd 

Modifié par Zjarcal, 27 novembre 2010 - 06:17 .

[Sabariel]

Lord_Anthonior wrote...

Sabariel wrote...

When does Alistair call Leliana crazy? He asks if you think she's crazy. I've never had him call her crazy or ever agree with me if my response was "Yup, she's nuttier than a nutcake."

As for Morrigan, she is a beotch, but I still love her anyway

Finally, in the case of Alistair, I like him because he's cute, sweet, and just a little fuzzy like an apricot

I believe that he calls her crazy at the very moment in Lothering after accepting or while accepting her to join the party. "More crazy? I thought we were all packed up" something like that. I thought: "dude! again? you don't want any ladies in the party or what?? or do you want to defeat the Blight by your own?...if no then shut up!" so in away he does calls Leliana crazy.

That ".....I still love her anyway" made me count to 10 and calm down 

He calls her crazy when he knows nothing of her, when she was just some random woman claiming the Maker told her to help you. She could have been crazy at that point. Turns out she wasn't crazy and just awesome instead.

Later he asks if you think she's crazy or not. If you say she is he doesn't share that view because now he knows her better. At least he's never agreed with me when I've said that Leliana is nutty.

[Sabariel]

Zjarcal wrote...

Sabariel wrote...
Which gossip conversation is that? The one of the Orlesian bards? My mind is drawing a complete blank since there's lots of gossip going on behind the Warden's back .

The gossip conversation Alistair has once he reaches "friendly" status, when he asks your opinion about all your companions.

EDIT: Ninja'd 

OH! Duh. I'm smart. I see now. Sorry about that

[Raelis25]

Sueno wrote...

Ha-ha, I'm sorry I am unable to fulfill your request. I believe Alistair shares many traits with the princess archetype. Being virginal is one of them (there stories upon stories filled with virginal princesses).

The bad boy is very normal character in the world of romance. Zevran is very typical. And judging from this forum discussion there have been many females who felt an urge to change, or care for Alistair. But what is the difference between Alistair and Zevran? Zevran has high high self-esteem and Alistair doesn't and I think people are cluing into this on a consious or subconsious level and want Alistair to learn to love himself. When you compare Zev's past to Alistair's there's no contest as to who had it worse. However, Alistair seems to hold more of a negative view of what took place in his youth. Maybe if he was as egotistical as Zev some females may not be as drawn to him as they are.

Hmm, I disagree with your asessment of both Alistair and Zevran. I think they're both archetypes, the "knight in shining armor" and the "bad boy who wants to be redeemed", but I don't think Alistair shares a lot of traits with the feminine archetype you describe, and I also don't think Zevran is as stereotypical as you believe. First,  Alistair is far from being the only reluctant (and virginal) hero who was thrust into the role of a protector/leader against his own will. Harry Potter, anyone? So I honestly don't understand why you call him "princess". There are many other archetypes he fits into just as easily.  Also, he is not passive and he does not spend as much time bemoaning his fate as some people think he does. I honestly can't recall him ever whining about his unfair and tough childhood. It's obvious that it affected him in a negative way, but it is only natural. So why do you think he holds a more negative view of his past than Zevran does? Zevran actually holds a very negative view of his childhood, if you listen carefully to his dialogues - he is just better at seeming casual about it. And he doesn't have a high self-esteem either - he's confident about himself when it comes to his sex appeal, but he is so utterly sure that he is not worthy of being loved - truly loved - by the warden that he attempts to break up with her/him when he feels he's strating to fall. He's not egotistical either - in fact, there are times when he gives the impression of being selfless. I feel both Zevran and Alistair are damaged, and yes, part of their appeal lies in the woman's desire to fix them. The romances play on our nurturing instincts, and in this way they're both what you could call "stereotypical" - but I don't see it as a bad thing, because both romances are still original enough (for a video game, anyway). Alistair and Zevran are both unlike Bioware's typical male romance option - Carth, Valen, Kaidan. As far as Bioware games go, they are both a departure from the tradition, and personally, I appreciate it. I loved Carth, but I found it refreshing to be able to romance men who were very different from the archetype Carth represents, even if they're both just archetypes of a different sort. They both have a self-deprecating brand of humor that many find very appealing. They're both not static - they can grow and become stronger, better people by the end of the game.

I think all it comes down to is that Alistair is just not your type. And that's perfectly fine. I don't understand what exactly some of my friends see in their boyfriends/husbands, but as they say, variety is the spice of life. I love Alistair, although I personally prefer him as a friend. I love Zevran -  guess I'm just susceptible to the bad boy charm, even if "redeeming" him is not the thing that attracts me to his romance. Different strokes for different folks, ya know?

Addai67 wrote...
But some women prefer Zevran, so we really
can't stereotype too much.  Alistair is sexy, charming and funny.  It's
really not rocket science, is it?

This.

Modifié par Raelis25, 27 novembre 2010 - 07:03 .

[chessplayer209]

Well I'm not a girl... but I can give you a guy's perspective on why I like Alistair (just as a character - I'm not referring to romance options at all here).

*spoilers*
After being so genuinely disgusted with the short-term results of having put Bhelen on the throne, I knew Alistair would make a great king (especially because he didn't seem to want to be king) ... he's just an all around great guy and that was refreshing for me in an otherwise dark and depressing world (that the world was depressing wasn't a bad thing either, that's oddly part of my attraction to the game). But not only was Alistair the type of guy who wanted to do good and personally thought himself good, Alistair actually achieved what were from my perspective good outcomes during the game (in contrast with many characters who are "good" yet also would kill someone for making fun of a King or something due to some twisted commitment to follow the law or whatever ruler is in power in a blind fashion, or perhaps out of commitment for medieval traditions --- as opposed to a reasonable concept of 'justice.')

Anyway, another great thing about Alistair is that he's just so funny sometimes! Like that time you were in the Fade with him and he got absolutely and thoroughly tricked by that desire demon.. then when he finds out how stupid he was being, his innocent sounding little "you won't tell the others how easily fooled I was, will you?" comment was just hilarious.... particularly in light of what Morrigan would say to him if she knew.  (Didn't Morrigan say something along the lines of:  We now have a dog travelling with us, yet Alistair is still the stupidest member of the party.") ? I mean when I thought of that line and what  a field day Morrigan would have if she could have seen Alistair say that... it was just kinda "juicy" to me. Not sure how else I can describe it.

When he said that, part of me was hoping for a dialog option where I could tell Morrigan about it anyway just for the lulz.

All that aside, Sten seemed to be a pretty simple, disagreeable, and in general unlikeable character - but unfortunately my mage needed someone to tank for him and I didn't have too many options. Alistair helped make things more interesting for me and fulfilled this role rather nicely.

That said, I like Oghren way more than Alistair.

Modifié par chessplayer209, 27 novembre 2010 - 07:33 .

[galian77]

I really think it depends on the character you play For me, it's always been very easy to get into my characters' mindsets (if that makes any sense...).



As far as Alistair goes, I just think he's so adorable! I can definitely see his romantic appeal: Charming, sweet, and open about his emotions. I've always preferred Zevran, myself, but I made a female Cousland so I could marry him (didn't turn out as planned, but anywho), and I had so much fun going through his romance fully. My first playthrough, I dumped him for Zevran as soon as I could. Then, my second playthrough was with a male elf who romanced Leliana.



I always though Alistair's romance was very, very sweet, and worth playing through fully at least once, like the other LIs.

[Addai]

Lord_Anthonior wrote...

I believe that he calls her crazy at the very moment in Lothering after accepting or while accepting her to join the party. "More crazy? I thought we were all packed up" something like that. I thought: "dude! again? you don't want any ladies in the party or what?? or do you want to defeat the Blight by your own?...if no then shut up!" so in away he does calls Leliana crazy.

That ".....I still love her anyway" made me count to 10 and calm down 

The irony about your complaint is that if you turn Leliana down, he advocates for her to come along later on.  Which is the only reason I ever take her.  *grumble grumble*

[Janni-in-VA]

Glaucon wrote...

Janni-in-VA wrote...

Do I understand you correctly if I say that you feel Alistair uses his past as an excuse rather than a reason?  There's a fine distinction between the two.  If so, I respectfully disagree.  I don't see him wallowing in the "woe is me" mud puddle.  I feel that he simply tells you about his life as it was and then leaves you free to interpret that the way you wish.  I just take it as information, much like learning that Zevran was purchased by the Crows at the age of seven, rather than Alistair's attempt to rationalize his actions.  (I'm not sure "rationalize" is the word I want, so I apologize if it seems a clumsy choice.)

Yes you understand me correctly.  But I don't see him wallowing in self pity either.  He, to me, just doesn't seem to go beyond either of those two perspectives?

I see.  Well, I do disagree with you, as I feel that Alistair does grow through the game.  The relationship with him is best and evolves more quickly if you choose conversation options which indicate that you understand why he feels the way he does.  That being said, you certainly don't have to agree with his feelings. 

I know that my feelings about all the companions and various situations in the game have changed over the course of many playthroughs (something like 12 and counting), but I can also understand how a well-written character can be, like some people, just not at all your cup of tea.  To each his/her own. 

[Addai]

Glaucon wrote...

There's nothing sweet about Morrigan's love: it's all rather perfunctory.

That's not true at all.  She has a vulnerability and a girlish side that I found quite touching.  Heartbreaking, by the end.  Again, the voice acting is incredible there.

[Lord_Anthonior]

Addai67 wrote...

Lord_Anthonior wrote...

I believe that he calls her crazy at the very moment in Lothering after accepting or while accepting her to join the party. "More crazy? I thought we were all packed up" something like that. I thought: "dude! again? you don't want any ladies in the party or what?? or do you want to defeat the Blight by your own?...if no then shut up!" so in away he does calls Leliana crazy.

That ".....I still love her anyway" made me count to 10 and calm down 

The irony about your complaint is that if you turn Leliana down, he advocates for her to come along later on.  Which is the only reason I ever take her.  *grumble grumble*

Haha :happy: ironic indeed I suppose, it's just that I never get to that part in my playthroughs, I accept Leliana right away even with that slight hint of jealousy from Morrigan (wich I like) , so there was no way of me knowing alistair would advocate for her. 

[Sabariel]

Glaucon wrote...

galian77 wrote...

I really think it depends on the character you play For me, it's always been very easy to get into my characters' mindsets (if that makes any sense...).

As far as Alistair goes, I just think he's so adorable! I can definitely see his romantic appeal: Charming, sweet, and open about his emotions. I've always preferred Zevran, myself, but I made a female Cousland so I could marry him (didn't turn out as planned, but anywho), and I had so much fun going through his romance fully. My first playthrough, I dumped him for Zevran as soon as I could. Then, my second playthrough was with a male elf who romanced Leliana.

I always though Alistair's romance was very, very sweet, and worth playing through fully at least once, like the other LIs.

There's nothing sweet about Morrigan's love: it's all rather perfunctory.

Since when? Morrigan is almost as squishy as Alistair on the inside.

[Sueno]

Addai67 wrote...

Sueno wrote...

Addai67 wrote...
Uh... we must be operating under very different standards of normal.  LOL  I would say that Alistair is more your boy next door type romance, whereas falling for an assassin with a checkered bedroom history doesn't seem like the obvious thing to me.  (Zevran's romance is so poignant for some of the underlying and what I found surprising depth.)  But... could you stop referring to Alsitair as a princess? 

Ha-ha, I'm sorry I am unable to fulfill your request. I believe Alistair shares many traits with the princess archetype. Being virginal is one of them (there stories upon stories filled with virginal princesses).

I'm sure this is my complete lack of familiarity with anime that makes me shrug and say "ok, whatever."  I have no such associations.  Medieval literature is replete with knights who maintain celibacy out of a sense of honor.  I don't think that is Alistair so much, since he mostly points to his lack of opportunity as the reason, but he also won't sleep with a woman casually and has apparently turned away Denerim's ladies of the evening in the past.  That's the literary association I make, if any.

The character archetype is an old system and although it can be applied to anime, its roots come from Plato. As I've stated in previous threads I'm looking at Alistiar with my literary goggles on, breaking him down the way I would a character in a story I would have to critique--so I'm using jargon I'm familiar with using. I apologize if some of my word usage has been confusing. You can look at character archetypes as the basic makeup of any character. They're the cookie cutter we all use to shape our characters since basically nothing is new and/or original. As such, Alistair's character has been done before. What I find interesting is Alistair seems to fit the "princess" mold  yet has way more fangirls. So, it's great to look at this from a literary perspective to break down the plot, character development and motive to help me better understand why Alistair has so many fangirls.

[Sueno]

Raelis25 wrote...

I think all it comes down to is that Alistair is just not your type. And that's perfectly fine. I don't understand what exactly some of my friends see in their boyfriends/husbands, but as they say, variety is the spice of life. I love Alistair, although I personally prefer him as a friend. I love Zevran -  guess I'm just susceptible to the bad boy charm, even if "redeeming" him is not the thing that attracts me to his romance. Different strokes for different folks, ya know?

I know Alistair isn't my type (although from the discussions I had in this thread yesterday I'm leaning more in the direction of he wasn't my grey warden's type since I played her as a spoiled bratty teen) but I made this thread for the fangirls to explain why they like Alistair.

ETA: I think we've had pretty interesting discussions without this thread spiraling into some type of flame war. So yay to us for being awesome like that!

Modifié par Sueno, 27 novembre 2010 - 10:20 .

[Janni-in-VA]

Sueno wrote...

ETA: I think we've had pretty interesting discussions without this thread spiraling into some type of flame war. So yay to us for being awesome like that!

Yay indeed!  \\o/  As someone who has a degree in English, I've understood you quite well.  Since it's been years since I've either done or taught academic writing, I've just come at this discussion from a layman's point of view, so to speak.  I find the more indepth analyses most interesting.  I tend to take games at a basic surface level and let the deeper meanings sort of simmer away in my subconscious.  When I read those posts which analyze character or plot or setting in more detail, I can both understand and generally come up with some sort of agree/disagree response.  Occasionally, I even sound as if I have a degree.    For me, it's a more intuitive response, but that's the way I approached my own academic writing.  I'd do my research well ahead of time, come up with a couple of possible theses, and then let everything simmer on the back burner for several weeks.  I usually wrote my papers the night before they were due.  Nothing like working against a deadline to get the old creative juices flowing.

I don't think I have anything new to add re. Alistair, but I've enjoyed following the conversation.  Thank you for introducing this thoughtful topic.  If you haven't played out an Alistair romance all the way through, I'd try it.  It can be quite rewarding.  I have a Cousland right now who's working through a romance with Alistair.  I had designed her to be my "marries Alistair and becomes queen" and dark side playthrough.  The dark side thing isn't working so well, but the romance is right on track.  <3

[Sueno]

Janni-in-VA wrote...

Yay indeed!  \\\\o/  As someone who has a degree in English, I've understood you quite well.  Since it's been years since I've either done or taught academic writing, I've just come at this discussion from a layman's point of view, so to speak.  I find the more indepth analyses most interesting.  I tend to take games at a basic surface level and let the deeper meanings sort of simmer away in my subconscious.  When I read those posts which analyze character or plot or setting in more detail, I can both understand and generally come up with some sort of agree/disagree response.  Occasionally, I even sound as if I have a degree.    For me, it's a more intuitive response, but that's the way I approached my own academic writing.  I'd do my research well ahead of time, come up with a couple of possible theses, and then let everything simmer on the back burner for several weeks.  I usually wrote my papers the night before they were due.  Nothing like working against a deadline to get the old creative juices flowing.

Woo-hoo a fellow English graduate! I have to admit, I also wrote all
my papers the night before. I think there is something about knowing
your paper is due in 8 hours which gets the creative juices flowing.

Janni-in-VA wrote...

I don't think I have anything new to add re. Alistair, but I've enjoyed following the conversation.  Thank you for introducing this thoughtful topic.  If you haven't played out an Alistair romance all the way through, I'd try it.  It can be quite rewarding.  I have a Cousland right now who's working through a romance with Alistair.  I had designed her to be my "marries Alistair and becomes queen" and dark side playthrough.  The dark side thing isn't working so well, but the romance is right on track.  <3

I went back to my save file of the landsmeet yesterday and played throuh to the end. This time I got engaged to Alistair and had him do the ritual with Morrigan. I know there are multiple ways to play out a scene but the way it played out for me Alistair didn't put up much of a fight about having to sleep with Morrigan. He joked about knocking him out but the way he said it didn't in any way match the way he would joke about his upbrining in the beginning of the game. It made me wonder if he actually likes Morrigan, but Morrigan is the pretty girl who lets you know you're not worth her time of day and maybe Alistair always resented that about her. No one likes feeling less than someone else. I know it's really hard to grasp any sort of reading when the dialogue tree is so varied and the characters actually evolve depending on your choices, but this thought has intrigued me and it won't leave me alone. So I'm curious if anyone else has thought this about Alistair. He's that person you would say "thou dost protest too much" in Morrigan's case.

[Sueno]

Glaucon wrote...

Sueno wrote...

Addai67 wrote...

Sueno wrote...

Addai67 wrote...
Uh... we must be operating under very different standards of normal.  LOL  I would say that Alistair is more your boy next door type romance, whereas falling for an assassin with a checkered bedroom history doesn't seem like the obvious thing to me.  (Zevran's romance is so poignant for some of the underlying and what I found surprising depth.)  But... could you stop referring to Alsitair as a princess? 

Ha-ha, I'm sorry I am unable to fulfill your request. I believe Alistair shares many traits with the princess archetype. Being virginal is one of them (there stories upon stories filled with virginal princesses).

I'm sure this is my complete lack of familiarity with anime that makes me shrug and say "ok, whatever."  I have no such associations.  Medieval literature is replete with knights who maintain celibacy out of a sense of honor.  I don't think that is Alistair so much, since he mostly points to his lack of opportunity as the reason, but he also won't sleep with a woman casually and has apparently turned away Denerim's ladies of the evening in the past.  That's the literary association I make, if any.

The character archetype is an old system and although it can be applied to anime, its roots come from Plato. As I've stated in previous threads I'm looking at Alistiar with my literary goggles on, breaking him down the way I would a character in a story I would have to critique--so I'm using jargon I'm familiar with using. I apologize if some of my word usage has been confusing. You can look at character archetypes as the basic makeup of any character. They're the cookie cutter we all use to shape our characters since basically nothing is new and/or original. As such, Alistair's character has been done before. What I find interesting is Alistair seems to fit the "princess" mold  yet has way more fangirls. So, it's great to look at this from a literary perspective to break down the plot, character development and motive to help me better understand why Alistair has so many fangirls.

Older than that even.  Plato regularly discusses Homeric poetry when considering Archetypes -- he loves the Iliad for instance.

ETA

But strangely he despises poets and denies them access to his Republic on account of their tendency to appeal to emotion over reason.

This. I know he tied poetry to rhetoric which he believed to be utterly shameful (remember how he tore into Gorgias), but I don't understand why every type of pleasure regulated to the logos had to be purely educational. The more I think about it the more I believe he kept poetry out of his Republic because he didn't want sophist like Gorgias to exist there.