472 réponses à ce sujet

[Maria13]

I think to assume that a man cannot be virginal and still a man is rather sexist...

[Sueno]

@Glaucon Thanks for the book rec! I'm gonna have to check it out.

@Maria13 Are you making a general statement or are you replying to a something someone posted before? I brought up the whole virginal trait because I was discussing archetypes and how virginity is a part of the princess archetype. I don't think I read anywhere where someone tied viriginity to being female. Maybe I missed something?

Modifié par Sueno, 27 novembre 2010 - 12:07 .

[Maria13]

I went back to my save file of the landsmeet yesterday and played throuh
to the end. This time I got engaged to Alistair and had him do the
ritual with Morrigan. I know there are multiple ways to play out a scene
but the way it played out for me Alistair didn't put up much of a fight
about having to sleep with Morrigan. He joked about knocking him out
but the way he said it didn't in any way match the way he would joke
about his upbrining in the beginning of the game. It made me wonder if
he actually likes Morrigan, but Morrigan is the pretty girl who lets you
know you're not worth her time of day and maybe Alistair always
resented that about her. No one likes feeling less than someone else. I
know it's really hard to grasp any sort of reading when the dialogue
tree is so varied and the characters actually evolve depending on your
choices, but this thought has intrigued me and it won't leave me alone.
So I'm curious if anyone else has thought this about Alistair. He's that
person you would say "thou dost protest too much" in Morrigan's case.

I read that quite differently, at the beginning he says something like "You're joking right?" and then when the warden insists or commands he puts a good face on it.  This is Alistair being brave and obeying orders, not enjoying it.

He then goes on to mention wine and food, for Alistair love and sex anre mixed up with the other basic pleasures, drinking and eating, I think he deeply regrets not only the fact that he will be bedded by someone who means nothing to him and to whom he is just a means to an end but the whole cold mechanistic set-up, the the lack of foreplay, affection, anything else.

[Maria13]

Sueno wrote...

@Glaucon Thanks for the book rec! I'm gonna have to check it out.

@Maria13 Are you making a general statement or are you replying to a something someone posted before? I brought up the whole virginal trait because I was discussing archetypes and how virginity is a part of the princess archetype. I don't think I read anywhere where someone tied viriginity to being female. Maybe I missed something?

Hello sueno, princesses are female and perceived as female stereotypes, I therefore thought that you were feminising him for a quality that can be possessed by either gender...

Modifié par Maria13, 27 novembre 2010 - 12:15 .

[Maria13]

Glaucon wrote...

Maria13 wrote...

I think to assume that a man cannot be virginal and still a man is rather sexist...

Extremely, especially when I consider that I fired a rifle in anger before I fired anything else off ...  ... ... er looses ability to speak plainly 

ETA But I don't think that it was meant that way.

Now you sound like Alistair, he learnt to fight way before he learnt to love but he's embarassed about it...

[Maria13]

Glaucon wrote...

Maria13 wrote...

Glaucon wrote...

Maria13 wrote...

I think to assume that a man cannot be virginal and still a man is rather sexist...

Extremely, especially when I consider that I fired a rifle in anger before I fired anything else off ...  ... ... er looses ability to speak plainly 

ETA But I don't think that it was meant that way.

Now you sound like Alistair, he learnt to fight way before he learnt to love but he's embarassed about it...

That's hilarious.  Maybe you have something there?  Perhaps that's why I question him so?  But let's not discuss me if you please.

That's fine, it was just an off the cuff observation...

[Sueno]

Maria13 wrote...

Sueno wrote...

@Glaucon Thanks for the book rec! I'm gonna have to check it out.

@Maria13 Are you making a general statement or are you replying to a something someone posted before? I brought up the whole virginal trait because I was discussing archetypes and how virginity is a part of the princess archetype. I don't think I read anywhere where someone tied viriginity to being female. Maybe I missed something?

Hello sueno, princesses are female and perceived as female stereotypes, I therefore thought that you were feminising him for a quality that can be possessed by either gender...

Ah, gender roles, confusing things, they are. Although I don't want to winnow down archetypes to stereotypes (stereotypes are more localized) they operate in similar ways. Archetypes have stood the test of time and cross cultures. I'm pretty sure there is male archetype Alistair fits splendidly, but he's so similiar to the princess type (and even these are varied) I have labeled him as such.

[Maria13]

I do see where you are coming from.

I have been thinking this over, over breakfast, one of the things I like about Alistair is that he is not embarrassed to make emotional demands and this is perceived as more of a female trait. Personally I don't think so, every normal balanced human has emotional needs but men like to disguise theirs, usually. Alistair doesn't, this is why he is often called whiny and a baby, but some women like myself prefer our men to be emotionally up front and to tell us they would like a kiss or a cuddle... (Okay so I'm coming over here like some big mother...) and you don't often get a male character who does that, hence why he has struck a chord with so many women (please don't call us "rabid fangirls", I'm not usually rabid and I'm waaaay too old to be a girl!) who hither to have not been catered for by male video game characters. These tend to me more of the "Me, I'm tough, I eat nails for breakfast..." type which I find extremely offputting.

Modifié par Maria13, 27 novembre 2010 - 12:59 .

[Lord_Anthonior]

Maria13 wrote...

I do see where you are coming from.

I have been thinking this over, over breakfast, one of the things I like about Alistair is that he is not embarrassed to make emotional demands and this is perceived as more of a female trait. Personally I don't think so, every normal balanced human has emotional needs but men like to disguise theirs, usually. Alistair doesn't, this is why he is often called whiny and a baby, but some women like myself prefer our men to be emotionally up front and to tell us they would like a kiss or a cuddle... (Okay so I'm coming over here like some big mother...) and you don't often get a male character who does that, hence why he has struck a chord with so many women (please don't call us "rabid fangirls", I'm not usually rabid and I'm waaaay too old to be a girl!) who hither to have not been catered for by male video game characters. Who tend to me more of the "Me, I'm tough, I eat nails for breakfast..." which I find extremely offputting.

Aha!! Could it be as subject of discussion? as per that, can it be consider that many fan girls find him appealing because it appeals to their "maternal instinct"? I had that theory at the beginning of this thread but I had yet to find someone who mentioned it briefly and since you mentioned it, then maybe it could be percieved that way for other fan girls so Sueno get another examples and/or reasons.

I believe I shared my observations for a male player but she was interested in another fan girls, so this could be another reason to discuss.

[Maria13]

Anth... ¿Hispano? Yeah, OK, maternal instincts and all that.... But you still call me a fan girl...  I could probably be your granny.

Maternal instincts are just protective, the same as paternal instincts are... There is nothing wrong with protective instincts indeed most of us have them towards our partners whatever our genders...

Modifié par Maria13, 27 novembre 2010 - 01:19 .

[Lord_Anthonior]

Maria13 wrote...

Anth... Yeah, OK, maternal instincts and all that.... But you still call me a fan girl...

Of course I still call you a fan girl, why would I call you otherwise? I believe that's what you are, a fan and a girl unless you mean as to adress you as a fan woman and in that case it would drive to make the distinction among other players by their ages and that might take time, whereas it would be quicker and still respectful to address the female players as fan girls

And a...what does "hispano" has to do with anything? or why the question? 

Modifié par Lord_Anthonior, 27 novembre 2010 - 01:23 .

[Maria13]

Lord_Anthonior wrote...

Maria13 wrote...

Anth... Yeah, OK, maternal instincts and all that.... But you still call me a fan girl...

Of course I still call you a fan girl, why would I call you otherwise? I believe that's what you are, a fan and a girl unless you mean as to adress you as a fan woman and in that case it would drive to make the distinction among other players by their ages and that might take time, whereas it would be quicker and still respectful to address the female players as fan girls

Señora would be fine... Can I call you chico? Just joking.

Hispano, no offence intended, my father was Spanish, lived in Spain 15 years, my family is still out there...

Modifié par Maria13, 27 novembre 2010 - 01:28 .

[Sueno]

@Maria13 Yes, there is a backlash against men showing their emotions in the US culture despite the fact that science has shown them to be the more emotional of the sexes. I think this bias may play a role as to why some females like Alistair.

You wrote: Alistair doesn't, this is why he is often called whiny and a baby, but
some women like myself prefer our men to be emotionally up front and to
tell us they would like a kiss or a cuddle.. And I was wondering if you were referencing something Alistair did in the game. Alistair never really was up front in my game about wanting to do those things but this may be due to the choices. I'm pretty sure you were speaking hypothetically and he never asked to kiss and cuddle but was there a scene you have in mind which you were relating that statement to?

I believe the game dialogue leads one to believe your party members find Alistair whiny and there are incidents when he does come off as such. My first playthrough of the landsmeet he came off as incredibly whiny. I do not deem him whiny because he is emotionally open. I see him as whiny because when he doesn't get his way his voice pitch often rises and he'll protest for a bit. I'm interested to read other peoples opinions on why they deem Alistair to be a whiner.

[Maria13]

Well... Game dialogue as has been commented before is limited, but at one point he says something along the lines of "I want this to be with you..." re making love, and "I don't want to wait..." "Did I tell you I loved you, I did? Well, it won't hurt for you to hear it again, will it?" Where he seems to be making out that you are actually the tougher one and he doesn't mind that one bit...

In a way to be solicited like that is empowering.

Modifié par Maria13, 27 novembre 2010 - 01:34 .

[Lord_Anthonior]

Maria13 wrote...

Lord_Anthonior wrote...

Maria13 wrote...

Anth... Yeah, OK, maternal instincts and all that.... But you still call me a fan girl...

Of course I still call you a fan girl, why would I call you otherwise? I believe that's what you are, a fan and a girl unless you mean as to adress you as a fan woman and in that case it would drive to make the distinction among other players by their ages and that might take time, whereas it would be quicker and still respectful to address the female players as fan girls

Señora would be fine... Can I call you chico? Just joking.

Hahaha that's what you meant by the question,  yes you can call me chico and Señora shall be then with all due respect because we always address to Señoras politely. If knowing the terms in Spanish we have several depending of the ages and social status, married or single as well. So for the time being yes, I'm a chico or joven and it's quite all right, socially I'm in that category, until I get married I'll be address as Señor. Anyway, that was a short off topic matter.

Just mentioned the other thing for others to talk about.

[Sueno]

Gemaphrodite wrote...

I approve of Alistair.

Exposition, please

[Tigress M]

Sueno, forgive me if I've missed hearing you say this previously but did you find any of the other characters interesting, especially revolving around romances with them?

I'm asking because one of the things, romance-wise that I think is missing for all the LI's in the game is the lack of spontaneity of affection after they actually fall in "love" (approval wise). Once you get to that point and whatever the last bit of drama is regarding that (like Alistair asking to bed you, etc), any further intimate contact must be initiated by the player.

I also think this is most evident with Alistair (and possibly Leilana, although I'm not sure, having only done her romance once) since the final "act" with him involves making love. At least with Zevran, you can have the tent-time early but the relationship (and therefore further dialogue) continues to grow and change, perhaps disguising the fact that at some point all the NPC initiated romantic dialogue stops.

Anywho, I'm just wondering if you'd think differently of Alistair if he swooped in for a kiss or a tumble of his own initiative once in awhile, post-tent-time.

[Sarah1281]

Gilsa wrote...

Sarah1281 wrote...

They have seen all the bad about Cerberus that you have but the only good that you can see comes when they help you and Kaidan/Ashley aren't there while Alistair sees every little reason you might have to spare Loghain as he's with you the entire time. Additionally, they couldn't have come with you and helped no matter what they felt so it was less of a big deal.

I only spared Loghain for one reason. I don't participate in Loghain adoration threads so you're probably familiar with more reasons to spare Loghain, but my point was that both characters stuck to their convictions. They could have left the Alliance and joined Cerebus if they wanted. Jacob did it.

Non-metagaming, there are a few I can list off the top of my head that Alistair knows about as well as you do. Loghain was a big hero before this started, executing him would be done in front of his daughter, Riordan wants you to spare him, Loghain surrendered...it doesn't really matter if you find these or any other compelling reasons to spare him. The point is, if you chose not to kill him because, say, Riordan told you not to and he's the senior Warden then Alistair was right there to see that. He has the same information you do and Kaidan/Ashley really don't. I also find it a bit more extreme to expect someone to quit their job to follow you when they lack the information you do (and Jacob doesn't quit because he believes in Cerberus, he quits because he doesn't feel he can make a difference in the Alliance which is not a belief espoused by Kaidan or Ashlesy) than to just NOT leave when you do something.

I can see his opinion and I'm not addressing the validity of it but I don't see him walking away and letting Ferelden burn for all he acts to try to save it as a show of strength.

He's mad and he ends up regretting it down the road. I find that people like to hold Alistair and Wynne to higher standards than the rest of the NPCs in the game.

If I hold Alistair up to a higher standard than the other party members then it is because, unlike them, Alistair is actually a Grey Warden and I feel that that is more of an obligation to end the Blight than an assassin with nowhere else to go or or a mage following you because her mother told her to (and she wants an OGB). I also find it very bizarre that Alistair himself seems to come to regret his decision and yet players insist that he either did the right thing or his choice was in some way positive.

[ejoslin]

Tigress M, the romances actually all go along their own paths, and while they have similarities, they have their differences as well.



What you're talking about I don't actually consider a weakness. With all the relationships, i get a sense of them falling in love, and once they fall in love, the ramifications of that.



The final act of Alistair's can happen in several places depending on decisions you make. I think of Alistair's final act as happening on the roof of Fort Drakon if you haven't done the dark ritual. It may also happen post-landsmeet if you make him king.



When you read fanfics of any of the romance characters, there are as many scenarios of the relationships as their are authors. Not having everything spelled out does give people the freedom to fill in the blanks themselves.

[Sarah1281]

I knew Alistair would make a great king (especially because he didn't seem to want to be king) ...

You know, whether or not someone wants to be king is not an indication of how they will do as a ruler. A person who does want the throne is more likely to go mad with power, yes, but a person who doesn't want the throne is also more likely to not be good at their job (they might not want it for a reason) or to not actually put much effort into doing it. Either could be disastrous at being king, the best king that ever lived, or kind of mediocre.



One thing that I've always found odd is that everyone insists how funny Alistair is. I first played the game nearly a year ago but by this point I've played so many times I don't really think ANYTHING about the game is funny. Are you guys just remembering that you thought he was funny your first playthrough although the repetition of all the lines render them humorless or does hearing Alistair make the same cracks about how a Blight brings people together or he's drawing the line at putting on a dress an dancing for the king still seem amusing no matter how many times you hear it?