472 réponses à ce sujet

[tuppence95]

Zjarcal wrote...

Lord_Anthonior wrote...

Also for a male player, what king of man liked to have a friend calling their Love interest a b**** or Crazy in the case of Leliana? Not even in real life you tolerate a friend calling your girlfriend things, that's an unwritten rule and part of the code.

Hey, that was not just for male players!! <_<

And yes, that was one seriously annoying faux pas on behalf of Alistair.

I know this was discussed last night, but I wanted to add something for Zjarcal.  

Yes, Alistair did refer to Leliana as crazy when they first meet her after she informed them that the Maker had spoken to her.  And if you don't recruit her there, he'll make his "Princess Stabbity" plea for accepting her.  But in the "let's gossip about our companions" conversation, he actually made me feel a little bad about my warden saying Leliana was crazy.  He defends her and sounds like he has a soft spot in his heart for her.  It was that conversation that made me think, in an alternate DSC universe, he might have ended up with her.  (I know, I know, don't hit me.   )

With the exception of Morrigan, it seems like the purpose of that gossip conversation is so Alistair can bring up positive points that conteract negative opinions the warden might have about the companions.  Yes, he does introduce each one with a snarky comment, but with Leliana, Sten and Oghren, he also points out their good qualities. With Zevran, he agrees that maybe he should try to give him a chance.  

Morrigan is the only one he won't budge on.  I know some people see the word "b*tch" as meaning "immoral" or "lewd."  But I really do think Alistair meant that she is "b*tchy" (malicious, spiteful, irritable, cranky).  He doesn't know what she has planned for him, so he has no reason to be snarking about her sexuality.  But if you are playing a warden who tends to try to help people, he's right!  She really is the b*tchiest of all the companions.  She's one of the most interesting, but still the b*tchiest.  

*edit - because the censor mechanics made the post hard to read.

Modifié par tuppence95, 27 novembre 2010 - 04:14 .

[DPSSOC]

I think what some women may like about Alistair, and some men about Leliana, is the sense of accomplishment.  In most RPG romances, even Bioware's own, the big ending is the two characters finally get it on.  With Morrigan and Zevran this happens fairly early leaving us kind of hanging in the wind.  Alistair and Leliana on the other hand make you work for it and it could be that people are drawn to this sense of challenge, and conquest, as much as any particular character traits.  There is no glory in fighting an enemy who doesn't fight back, no fun in a competition you can't lose, etc.

Maria13 wrote...
Personally I don't think so, every normal balanced human has emotional needs but men like to disguise theirs, usually. Alistair doesn't, this is why he is often called whiny and a baby...

I disagree, Alistair is called whiny because he whines.  I still like him, but there's part of me that just wants him to shut up.  Especially in the beginning his moan and groan wears a bit thin.  I agree he may be considered a baby because he doesn't deal with his emotional needs the way he's supposed to (quietly), but he's considered whiny because he is one who whines, frequently.

[Sueno]

@Tigress M, I really like where you're taking the discussion. As for who find the most interesting in general, Morrigan is my favorite character. When it comes to LI I did prefer Zevran over Alistair. I think I would have liked it if all the characters interacted more throughout the game. In Knights of the Old Republic certain members of your party would want to talk during a mission. Also every new mission opened up a new dialogue tree. This aligned the character development with the progression of your mission but at least it remained active throughout the whole game.  The female LI in Kotor, Carth, was very flirty and I found this lacking somewhat in DA. Or maybe I just prefer the way Carth flirted in comparison to Zevran and Alistair. I dont' know, it's something to think about. Anyone who has played both KotoR and DA have any thougths on the matter?

I don't think I would like it if Alistair took the initiative in the romance because I would find it out of character. I know some people don't read Alistair as being shy, but I did and so him leading my warden away for a roll in the tent would just ruin his character for me. If Alistair was the person he became at the end of the game my warden probably would have been head of heels in love, but then we wouldn't get his awesome character development. So I'll take Alistair with all his misgivings because I loved watching him evelove.

I do think for every NPC the dialouge tree kinda becomes rather sparse by the end of the game. For me, about  halfway in Morrigan had nothing new to say and I really wanted to interact with her more. I'm pretty sure a male probably gets to interact with Morrigan more but my grey warden saw Morrigan as her best friend and it would have been nice to have more little moments with them (maybe while walking in town she stops the grey warden to talk to her about something she finds odd about the people, just small little moments like this would go a long way to help develop the characters).

What about you, Tigress M? You've stated that you felt the lack of spontaneity was missing, did this affect the romances for you?

[tuppence95]

@DPSSOC
In a way, I disagree with your statement about how difficult Alistair & Leliana are as LI.  Yes, you do have to work to get them in bed, while sex with Morrigan and Zev comes fairly quickly.  But love with Morrigan and Zev is very difficult, while it comes relatively easy with Alistair and Leliana.

Also, I still haven't really heard Alistair whine.  Are you referring to his grieving?  Because in the complaining department, Morrigan takes the crown in my game.

[Sueno]

tuppence95 wrote...

@DPSSOC
In a way, I disagree with your statement about how difficult Alistair & Leliana are as LI.  Yes, you do have to work to get them in bed, while sex with Morrigan and Zev comes fairly quickly.  But love with Morrigan and Zev is very difficult, while it comes relatively easy with Alistair and Leliana.

Also, I still haven't really heard Alistair whine.  Are you referring to his grieving?  Because in the complaining department, Morrigan takes the crown in my game.

Morrigan is a complainer and Alistair is a whiner; I agree with both these assertions.

[jpdipity]

Sarah1281 wrote...

One thing that I've always found odd is that everyone insists how funny Alistair is. I first played the game nearly a year ago but by this point I've played so many times I don't really think ANYTHING about the game is funny. Are you guys just remembering that you thought he was funny your first playthrough although the repetition of all the lines render them humorless or does hearing Alistair make the same cracks about how a Blight brings people together or he's drawing the line at putting on a dress an dancing for the king still seem amusing no matter how many times you hear it?

I still find Alistair and Zevran's lines hilarious regardless of how many times I hear them.  I laugh uncontrollablly throughout the game while my husband rolls his eyes.  I think I'm somewhere between 10-15 playthroughs at this point by the way - I haven't really been counting. 
I am also the type of person who will curl up and watch the same movie for the 20th time and enjoy it more the last time than the first time.

[DPSSOC]

tuppence95 wrote...
@DPSSOC
In a way, I disagree with your statement about how difficult Alistair & Leliana are as LI.  Yes, you do have to work to get them in bed, while sex with Morrigan and Zev comes fairly quickly.  But love with Morrigan and Zev is very difficult, while it comes relatively easy with Alistair and Leliana.

I agree both sets of romances do have essentially the same progression span just in reverse order but RPG's have set up sex as the kind of victory marker.  You build and build throughout the game to that final point, we've been conditioned to think of that as the goal of the romance.  So with Zev and Morrigan there's no sense of achievement in reaching that point because it happens so early.

Take Mass Effect as an example, if I playthrough with an existing career rather than starting fresh I don't get the same sense of accomplishment.  I've done all the same things, beat the same enemies, saved the same damsels, etc. but because I'm so much more powerful than if I started fresh there's no challenge, no sense of achievement.  It's an illusion based on preconceptions; based on past experience I expect sex to be the reward for completing a romance so when it comes early I don't feel any sense of accomplishment regardless of how much of the romance plot is still to come.

tuppence95 wrote...
Also, I still haven't really heard Alistair whine.  Are you referring to his grieving?  Because in the complaining department, Morrigan takes the crown in my game.

No his grieving isn't whining it's grief, he may deal with it a bit more vocally than I'd like but it's different.  Instances of Alistair whining; Picking up Morrigan, picking up Zev, picking up Shale, killing Connor, that one banter he has with Dog, that one banter he has with Morrigan, becoming King, and sparing Loghain.  That's all I can think of off hand but I just started a new playthrough and I always bring Alistair along, like I said I do like him reminds me of a friend of mine, so I'm sure more will come to me.

Personally I don't mind Alistair's emotional openness, it doesn't bother me that he doesn't do the "proper" thing and bury his emotions then smother them in rage and alcohol (or is that just me?), but the man has flaws.  Being a whiner is one of those flaws.

[tuppence95]

jpdipity wrote...

Sarah1281 wrote...

One thing that I've always found odd is that everyone insists how funny Alistair is. I first played the game nearly a year ago but by this point I've played so many times I don't really think ANYTHING about the game is funny. Are you guys just remembering that you thought he was funny your first playthrough although the repetition of all the lines render them humorless or does hearing Alistair make the same cracks about how a Blight brings people together or he's drawing the line at putting on a dress an dancing for the king still seem amusing no matter how many times you hear it?

I still find Alistair and Zevran's lines hilarious regardless of how many times I hear them.  I laugh uncontrollablly throughout the game while my husband rolls his eyes.  I think I'm somewhere between 10-15 playthroughs at this point by the way - I haven't really been counting. 
I am also the type of person who will curl up and watch the same movie for the 20th time and enjoy it more the last time than the first time.

Sure, some of the dialogue is getting old after numerous playthroughs, but there are still lines that make me laugh. In Alistair's case, I think it's just as much Steve Valentine's acting as it is the writing.  But like jpdipity, I can also enjoy a movie more each time I view it.

*edited to add:

@DPSSOC
Ah, ok.  I always thought of whining as sort of a sniveling type of complaining, and I wasn't hearing that from Alistair.  Many of the examples you listed were more like objecting or getting angry.  And yes, he did a lot of that.  In my game, he still can't compete with Morrigan in the complaint department though.  She b*tches at just about everything my warden does.  It's amazing she can still be at such a high friendship level with my pc!

Modifié par tuppence95, 27 novembre 2010 - 04:22 .

[Tigress M]

ejoslin wrote...

Tigress M, the romances actually all go along their own paths, and while they have similarities, they have their differences as well.

What you're talking about I don't actually consider a weakness. With all the relationships, i get a sense of them falling in love, and once they fall in love, the ramifications of that.

The final act of Alistair's can happen in several places depending on decisions you make. I think of Alistair's final act as happening on the roof of Fort Drakon if you haven't done the dark ritual. It may also happen post-landsmeet if you make him king.

When you read fanfics of any of the romance characters, there are as many scenarios of the relationships as their are authors. Not having everything spelled out does give people the freedom to fill in the blanks themselves.

I was in a bit of a rush and should have taken the time to explain what I meant a bit better, sorry.  I'm talking about the in camp dialogue, only -- not the story-centric ones.  In a nutshell, during my first playthrough, I loved that many times on returning to camp, someone would come up and initiate a dialogue (or a kiss/snuggle in the case of Alistair) and I remember feeling a little let down when it got to the point where those little cutscenes stopped.  

I've often said it would be wonderful if there was a mod that had your LI swoop in for a kiss or tent time request once in awhile instead of those always having to come from you after the initial ones.  

[Tigress M]

Sueno wrote...
What about you, Tigress M? You've stated that you felt the lack of spontaneity was missing, did this affect the romances for you?

It did a bit, as I stated above in explaining something to Ejoslin.  But enough to keep me from gushing over Alistair, no.  What it DID do though was get to pace things out quite a bit more with him.  I no longer give him every gift I can (usually he gets his mother's amulet and Duncan's shield) and I try to drag out the courtship as much as possible.  

[Sarah1281]

In a nutshell, during my first playthrough, I loved that many times on returning to camp, someone would come up and initiate a dialogue (or a kiss/snuggle in the case of Alistair) and I remember feeling a little let down when it got to the point where those little cutscenes stopped.

What do you mean? The only times I can recall is when Alistair swoop-kisses you and asks you to sleep with him if you don't make any moves whatsoever.

[errant_knight]

Sueno wrote...

Addai67 wrote...

Sueno wrote...

Addai67 wrote...
Uh... we must be operating under very different standards of normal.  LOL  I would say that Alistair is more your boy next door type romance, whereas falling for an assassin with a checkered bedroom history doesn't seem like the obvious thing to me.  (Zevran's romance is so poignant for some of the underlying and what I found surprising depth.)  But... could you stop referring to Alsitair as a princess? 

Ha-ha, I'm sorry I am unable to fulfill your request. I believe Alistair shares many traits with the princess archetype. Being virginal is one of them (there stories upon stories filled with virginal princesses).

I'm sure this is my complete lack of familiarity with anime that makes me shrug and say "ok, whatever."  I have no such associations.  Medieval literature is replete with knights who maintain celibacy out of a sense of honor.  I don't think that is Alistair so much, since he mostly points to his lack of opportunity as the reason, but he also won't sleep with a woman casually and has apparently turned away Denerim's ladies of the evening in the past.  That's the literary association I make, if any.

The character archetype is an old system and although it can be applied to anime, its roots come from Plato. As I've stated in previous threads I'm looking at Alistiar with my literary goggles on, breaking him down the way I would a character in a story I would have to critique--so I'm using jargon I'm familiar with using. I apologize if some of my word usage has been confusing. You can look at character archetypes as the basic makeup of any character. They're the cookie cutter we all use to shape our characters since basically nothing is new and/or original. As such, Alistair's character has been done before. What I find interesting is Alistair seems to fit the "princess" mold  yet has way more fangirls. So, it's great to look at this from a literary perspective to break down the plot, character development and motive to help me better understand why Alistair has so many fangirls.

Just curious--does Galahad also fit the princess mold for you?

[Sueno]

@ errant_knight, I don't know. I haven't studied or read the authorian legends since middle school. I wouldn't feel right giving you an analysis on a character I haven't read about in years.

Modifié par Sueno, 27 novembre 2010 - 05:50 .

[nos_astra]

Sarah1281 wrote...

In a
nutshell, during my first playthrough, I loved that many times on
returning to camp, someone would come up and initiate a dialogue (or a
kiss/snuggle in the case of Alistair) and I remember feeling a little
let down when it got to the point where those little cutscenes stopped.

What do you mean? The only times I can recall is when
Alistair swoop-kisses you and asks you to sleep with him if you don't
make any moves whatsoever.

He initiates the following conversations (if you let him):
- the conversation about bad dreams right after leaving Lothering
- he reveals who his father is when you first enter Redcliffe
- he tells you about Goldanna when you first enter Denerim

- Redcliffe conclusion conversation
- the party gossip dialogue
- the rose dialogue
- the post-Goldanna conversation (when you can confirm the personality change)
- the swooping kiss
- asking you to bed

It's a strange feeling when all this suddenly stops.

Modifié par klarabella, 27 novembre 2010 - 06:01 .

[errant_knight]

Sueno wrote...

@ errant_knight, I don't know. I haven't studied or read the authorian legends since middle school. I wouldn't feel right giving you an analysis on a character I haven't read about in years.

No problem. I was just curious. 
 
Edit: I have to agree with Klarabella about the abruptness of the end of the romance progression. You basically his a holding pattern as soon as the characters start sleeping together whereas there was frequent interaction initiated by Alistair before that. Sadly, this is not unrealistic.

Modifié par errant_knight, 27 novembre 2010 - 06:55 .

[Zjarcal]

tuppence95 wrote...
But in the "let's gossip about our companions" conversation, he actually made me feel a little bad about my warden saying Leliana was crazy.  He defends her and sounds like he has a soft spot in his heart for her.  It was that conversation that made me think, in an alternate DSC universe, he might have ended up with her.  (I know, I know, don't hit me.   )

First of all, how DARE you bring up DSC!!! :sick:

Maybe it's because it's been so long since I actually got the gossip conversation (since I never reach friendly status with Alistair anymore), but I remember him saying that he felt sorry for her and making the implication that I was taking advantage of her by being in a relationship with her.

*opens Toolset*

Ok, this is the part I'm referring to:

Alistair: I don't know what to make of her. If you look at her when she doesn't see you, she just looks so... so sad. I almost feel guilty taking her away from her life.
Warden: I don't. This is good for her.
Alistair: Good for you, maybe. Her I'm not so sure about.

Considering that taking Leliana with me meant that she was able to find herself, destroy her past demons (including Marjolaine), and finding love, I actually resented that comment. And just like with Morrigan's comment, I was frustrated that there was no proper "angry" response.

And for the record, this isn't the "faux pas" I was referring to in my previous post, that was for Morrigan's b!tch comment.

It's not a big deal mind you, just one of those little annoying things that make me like a character less. Anyway, it doesn't matter really since I don't get that conversation anymore and even if I did I would simply cut it off right from the start.

[Reika]

Hm, it's a little hard for me to put down in just a few words about Alistair's appeal. First a few things, I knew a little about the premise of DAO, but nothing about the characters. A friend of mine talked into trying it because he knew I loved fantasy and was getting a little tired of WoW. I'm also 34, more than a bit cynical and not overly fond of humanity in general.



Alistair had me giggling like a schoolgirl with some of his comments from the start of the game. I loved the humor and I found him very charming. The parts he got emotional in didn't bother me (and normally I'm the type to start rolling my eyes at excess emotion). Maybe part of it was Steve's voice. And I did think he was made to be physically attractive and my "type" usually isn't big and blond.



Another thing is that he doesn't really make any judgments about the PCs race, at least on my female characters I've noticed that. Since I don't play male, I dunno about that side.



While his tactics weren't set to attack anything attacking my Warden, I did find when he was set to default that he came to my PCs rescue fairly often without me having to set his tactics to do so.



And I have tried some of the other romances, but I always found my characters getting swooped by Alistair. And I've played through the game several times (4 I think, maybe more. I've deleted a lot of playthroughs) and each time I still find Alistair endearing.



Hope that helps.

[Addai]

Sueno wrote...

The character archetype is an old system and although it can be applied to anime, its roots come from Plato. As I've stated in previous threads I'm looking at Alistiar with my literary goggles on, breaking him down the way I would a character in a story I would have to critique--so I'm using jargon I'm familiar with using. I apologize if some of my word usage has been confusing. You can look at character archetypes as the basic makeup of any character. They're the cookie cutter we all use to shape our characters since basically nothing is new and/or original. As such, Alistair's character has been done before. What I find interesting is Alistair seems to fit the "princess" mold  yet has way more fangirls. So, it's great to look at this from a literary perspective to break down the plot, character development and motive to help me better understand why Alistair has so many fangirls.

I was a literature major, too, specialty in German medieval.  I don't recall this Platonic "princess" archetype, but what you describe of it doesn't even sound like Alistair.  The association I make, and I think it's a more direct one, is as I said, the courtly knight.  I simply think the association you are making is probably through your own lens.  Nothing the writer has said suggests it was the model for the character.

[Tigress M]

Sarah1281 wrote...

In a nutshell, during my first playthrough, I loved that many times on returning to camp, someone would come up and initiate a dialogue (or a kiss/snuggle in the case of Alistair) and I remember feeling a little let down when it got to the point where those little cutscenes stopped.

What do you mean? The only times I can recall is when Alistair swoop-kisses you and asks you to sleep with him if you don't make any moves whatsoever.

I'm not just thinking of romantic camp scenes, but it IS those I'd like to see more of though.  But if you think about it... the early part of the game goes something like this (though not in any particular order):

-Dream of AD after leaving Lothering and followup chat
-Sten's "I don't understand" convo
-Wynne's explanation about her spirit
-Alistair's comments about Redcliffe
-Morrigan's personal quest
-Leilanna's confession
-Alistair's romance scene(s)

So you start out getting a lot of companion initiated convo's upon returning to camp.  Of course I fully understand why they don't happen every time, but it'd be nice if there was a mod to have some romantic swoops randomly pop up and make returning to camp more interesting.  OR, even if your LI would kiss you (or suggest tent time) once in awhile when you go to talk to them in camp (instead of making your warden suggest it), would be a nice treat.  

[Sarah1281]

You know, we'd probably get this cleared up if we had the princess archetype spelled out.

[Tigress M]

klarabella wrote...
He initiates the following conversations (if you let him):
- the conversation about bad dreams right after leaving Lothering
- he reveals who his father is when you first enter Redcliffe
- he tells you about Goldanna when you first enter Denerim

- Redcliffe conclusion conversation
- the party gossip dialogue
- the rose dialogue
- the post-Goldanna conversation (when you can confirm the personality change)
- the swooping kiss
- asking you to bed

It's a strange feeling when all this suddenly stops. 

QFT!  I'm used to it now, but in my first playthrough I actually felt lonely when people stopped "bombarding" me upon return to camp.  

errant_knight wrote...
Edit: I have to agree with Klarabella about the abruptness of the end of the romance progression. You basically his a holding pattern as soon as the characters start sleeping together whereas there was frequent interaction initiated by Alistair before that. Sadly, this is not unrealistic.

Exactly!  And I don't want reality, I want my fantasy, dagnabit!  ROFL  

[tuppence95]

Zjarcal wrote...

tuppence95 wrote...
But in the "let's gossip about our companions" conversation, he actually made me feel a little bad about my warden saying Leliana was crazy.  He defends her and sounds like he has a soft spot in his heart for her.  It was that conversation that made me think, in an alternate DSC universe, he might have ended up with her.  (I know, I know, don't hit me.   )

First of all, how DARE you bring up DSC!!! :sick:

Maybe it's because it's been so long since I actually got the gossip conversation (since I never reach friendly status with Alistair anymore), but I remember him saying that he felt sorry for her and making the implication that I was taking advantage of her by being in a relationship with her.

*opens Toolset*

Ok, this is the part I'm referring to:

Alistair: I don't know what to make of her. If you look at her when she doesn't see you, she just looks so... so sad. I almost feel guilty taking her away from her life.
Warden: I don't. This is good for her.
Alistair: Good for you, maybe. Her I'm not so sure about.

Considering that taking Leliana with me meant that she was able to find herself, destroy her past demons (including Marjolaine), and finding love, I actually resented that comment. And just like with Morrigan's comment, I was frustrated that there was no proper "angry" response.

And for the record, this isn't the "faux pas" I was referring to in my previous post, that was for Morrigan's b!tch comment.

It's not a big deal mind you, just one of those little annoying things that make me like a character less. Anyway, it doesn't matter really since I don't get that conversation anymore and even if I did I would simply cut it off right from the start.

And I've never even played DSC!  *hides under the table after facing Zjarcal's wrath*  

Re: Alistair's comments on Leliana in the companion gossip conversation - that's interesting that you saw it that way.  I wasn't interested in her romantically.  I saw it that he was criticizing my warden for planning on using her to help me fight the Blight.

[Zjarcal]

tuppence95 wrote...

Re: Alistair's comments on Leliana in the companion gossip conversation - that's interesting that you saw it that way.  I wasn't interested in her romantically.  I saw it that he was criticizing my warden for planning on using her to help me fight the Blight.

The way you take it does change depending on what relationship you have with Leliana, but for me it was a really annoying comment, especially given that at that point I was already at 100 love status with her.

But like I said, I just hate gossip, any kind of gossip.

[Sueno]

@Addai67 Okay, I know what the problem is. I'm using the word princess. The book I read was basically taking old archetypes and updating them. I'll ask my sibs to return the book this week so I can see what the original archetype was. It may be the damsel, but I'm not positive. Also, the archetype system devides roles up based on sex. I'll apply a male archetype to a female if the description fits best. I think this might also have stirred up a bit of a confusion because the system is pretty precise.

[Giggles_Manically]

He is more mean about Zevran.



Zevran, the elf you cant trust him can you? I got that like so far into the game that it really made me wonder.

Ok he has just been in camp for... well months and you still dont trust him?