leggywillow wrote...
Sarah1281 wrote...
And I feel my question is perfectly valid. Why in the world would the troops have all left at nighttime?
The answer is obvious: They left at night because Fergus and his troops are all vampires! And the HN and Duncan can't catch up to them because they travelled as a flock of bats! It all makes perfect sense.
I don't really agree with that. You aren't a Grey Warden yet when you find that Fergus is in the Wilds and if Duncan felt that there was no way to stop everyone from declaring you a Teyrn then he'd probalby either kill you like Jory or release you from your conscription. Hiding Fergus' death makes no sense as he couldn't hide it forever and he seems too practical to try. There is no reason to think that Fergus was dead at the onset because all of Howe's men were at Highever but there was reason to think he might be in danger so he'd have to warn Fergus.To the topic: If you were to ask my MNM Rogue, he'd say the answer is obvious. Neither Duncan nor the King WANT you to find Fergus because they fear you might find his body and they'd be forced to aknowledge you as the rightful Teryn of Highever which raises the Spectre of Sophia Dryden all over again.
Modifié par IanPolaris, 27 novembre 2010 - 05:47 .
IanPolaris wrote...
I can't agree with you on this one. Given the huge risks (and he wouldn't be doing this without Logain's specific backing....something we find out later) that Arl Howe is taking, he must have a plan to take Fergus out as well. Given that it is perfectly reasonable to try to catch up and warn Fergus, and there is no reason that two men on horseback can't easily outpace an army even if that army has a one day (maximum possible) lead.
I never said that he didn't. In fact, I mentioned that Fergus was in danger of that very thing but that the game treats it like they expect something to happen at Ostagar where it would be easier to do than having bribed say, Fergus' cook. And since when do you have horses? Sneaking away from Highever is one thing but sneaking away and then going the the stables and hoping that there are at least two horses left that Fergus' men didn't take? There is absolutely no reason to believe that you arrived at Ostagar on horse. In fact, we're not even positive that the Coulsands had horses at all and the game makes it clear that they are far more common in Orlais.I can't agree with you on this one. Given the huge risks (and he wouldn't be doing this without Logain's specific backing....something we find out later) that Arl Howe is taking, he must have a plan to take Fergus out as well. Given that it is perfectly reasonable to try to catch up and warn Fergus, and there is no reason that two men on horseback can't easily outpace an army even if that army has a one day (maximum possible) lead.
But you KNOW where Fergus is. They don't hide this from you. He is scouting in the woods. I don't know WHY they sent him scouting in the woods and do not expect him back until post-battle but he was already gone by the time you and Duncan show up so this can't be a conspiracy to keep you from Fergus as Cailan had no way of knowing that he should even if he and Duncan would have wanted to keep you apart. I'm pretty sure I never said that no one knows who Sophia IS, just that why the Grey Wardens were exiled from Ferelden isn't common knowledge. She went up against a king and got the order exiled. One recruit with the support of a king getting back his land is hardly the same thing AT ALL.Conclusion: Duncan doesn't WANT you to catch up with Fergus. Also Ducan forbids you from going into the parts of the camp that are most likely to know where Fergus went. That's strike two. Also Duncan would know all about Sophia Dryden even if the others don't. That's strike three.
They want to stop Fergus from learning he's Teyrn because he's dead? That makes no sense. Also, again, Fergus was off in the Wilds before you even showed up and I'm sure that Fergus could be convinced to wait until the battle was over as then he'd have the entire army at Ostagar at his back like Cailan promised. At minimum they'd lose the personal service of one man who would make sure to not fight on the front lines. That doesn't really sound all that bad.I do think they are conspiring to keep Fergus from learning he's the rightful Teryn of Highever either because they believe he is already dead or because they can't afford to lose the Highever troops already in the field (which would certainly happen in the case of such an emergency). At minimum they should lose the services of Fergus Cousland if he's still alive because he is suddenly not expendable nor is his younger brother.
What I meant by 'kingdom' is that they are not trying to take the throne. They are interested in reclaiming their teynir. It doesn't really matter what teyrn means or what four hundred years ago a teryn was. They are not a threat to Cailan by attempting to reclaim land that was theirs until a few days/weeks ago particularly as the Couslands are ardent royalists. Duncan doesn't know that he's going to die. He doesn't know that if he didn't put you through the Joining and you survived that it would just be Alistair off to end the Blight. If he were really so deeply paranoid about you going off and being Teyrn, he probably would have just let you go. You're a good fighter but the reason he wasn't going to conscript you before was because pissing off Bryce was too big of a risk. Getting the GWs involved in a fight with Howe would be even more complicated and Duncan isn't THAT hard-up for recruits.This is clearly a case where Duncan is being high-handed and while the Grey Wardens have the right of conscription, as Alister himself points out (if you talk with him) it's something that has to be used lightly because of Sophia Dryden and often has severe consequences...which DAO doesn't address at all. As for "kingdom" until 400 years ago, a Teryn WAS a king...in fact that's what the title means. If Cailan was a fool for risking his heirless self on the front lines, then Duncan is equally so for forcing Fereldan's second family to do the same.
Again, when did I claim Cailan didn't know who she was? He and Loghain may not have known that she had a rebellion against the crown but Cailan showed a remarkable tendency to not give a damn about past events. Surely you can't believe that he's be more concerned with what happened with the GWs two centuries ago than he would be with what happened with Orlais in his father's time. Besides, Cailan was rather enamored with the GWs and it's difficult to be both enamored with something and deeply suspicious of them getting anywhere near politics.As for Cailan, he knows perfectly well who Sophia Dryden was. Logain would certainly tell him if Duncan and Maric did not. Even my own HN (any type) knows that the Dryden name is a 'black name' (and for good reason).
Sarah1281 wrote...
I never said that he didn't. In fact, I mentioned that Fergus was in danger of that very thing but that the game treats it like they expect something to happen at Ostagar where it would be easier to do than having bribed say, Fergus' cook. And since when do you have horses? Sneaking away from Highever is one thing but sneaking away and then going the the stables and hoping that there are at least two horses left that Fergus' men didn't take? There is absolutely no reason to believe that you arrived at Ostagar on horse. In fact, we're not even positive that the Coulsands had horses at all and the game makes it clear that they are far more common in Orlais.I can't agree with you on this one. Given the huge risks (and he wouldn't be doing this without Logain's specific backing....something we find out later) that Arl Howe is taking, he must have a plan to take Fergus out as well. Given that it is perfectly reasonable to try to catch up and warn Fergus, and there is no reason that two men on horseback can't easily outpace an army even if that army has a one day (maximum possible) lead.
But you KNOW where Fergus is. They don't hide this from you. He is scouting in the woods. I don't know WHY they sent him scouting in the woods and do not expect him back until post-battle but he was already gone by the time you and Duncan show up so this can't be a conspiracy to keep you from Fergus as Cailan had no way of knowing that he should even if he and Duncan would have wanted to keep you apart. I'm pretty sure I never said that no one knows who Sophia IS, just that why the Grey Wardens were exiled from Ferelden isn't common knowledge. She went up against a king and got the order exiled. One recruit with the support of a king getting back his land is hardly the same thing AT ALL.Conclusion: Duncan doesn't WANT you to catch up with Fergus. Also Ducan forbids you from going into the parts of the camp that are most likely to know where Fergus went. That's strike two. Also Duncan would know all about Sophia Dryden even if the others don't. That's strike three.
They want to stop Fergus from learning he's Teyrn because he's dead? That makes no sense. Also, again, Fergus was off in the Wilds before you even showed up and I'm sure that Fergus could be convinced to wait until the battle was over as then he'd have the entire army at Ostagar at his back like Cailan promised. At minimum they'd lose the personal service of one man who would make sure to not fight on the front lines. That doesn't really sound all that bad.I do think they are conspiring to keep Fergus from learning he's the rightful Teryn of Highever either because they believe he is already dead or because they can't afford to lose the Highever troops already in the field (which would certainly happen in the case of such an emergency). At minimum they should lose the services of Fergus Cousland if he's still alive because he is suddenly not expendable nor is his younger brother.
What I meant by 'kingdom' is that they are not trying to take the throne. They are interested in reclaiming their teynir. It doesn't really matter what teyrn means or what four hundred years ago a teryn was. They are not a threat to Cailan by attempting to reclaim land that was theirs until a few days/weeks ago particularly as the Couslands are ardent royalists. Duncan doesn't know that he's going to die. He doesn't know that if he didn't put you through the Joining and you survived that it would just be Alistair off to end the Blight. If he were really so deeply paranoid about you going off and being Teyrn, he probably would have just let you go. You're a good fighter but the reason he wasn't going to conscript you before was because pissing off Bryce was too big of a risk. Getting the GWs involved in a fight with Howe would be even more complicated and Duncan isn't THAT hard-up for recruits.This is clearly a case where Duncan is being high-handed and while the Grey Wardens have the right of conscription, as Alister himself points out (if you talk with him) it's something that has to be used lightly because of Sophia Dryden and often has severe consequences...which DAO doesn't address at all. As for "kingdom" until 400 years ago, a Teryn WAS a king...in fact that's what the title means. If Cailan was a fool for risking his heirless self on the front lines, then Duncan is equally so for forcing Fereldan's second family to do the same.
Again, when did I claim Cailan didn't know who she was? He and Loghain may not have known that she had a rebellion against the crown but Cailan showed a remarkable tendency to not give a damn about past events. Surely you can't believe that he's be more concerned with what happened with the GWs two centuries ago than he would be with what happened with Orlais in his father's time. Besides, Cailan was rather enamored with the GWs and it's difficult to be both enamored with something and deeply suspicious of them getting anywhere near politics.As for Cailan, he knows perfectly well who Sophia Dryden was. Logain would certainly tell him if Duncan and Maric did not. Even my own HN (any type) knows that the Dryden name is a 'black name' (and for good reason).
Modifié par Addai67, 27 novembre 2010 - 06:49 .
Addai67 wrote...
@IanPolaris, Gaider has said that Loghain was not involved in the Highever massacre and didn't know about it beforehand. He made the alliance with Howe after Ostagar, in Denerim. So he had no reason to want Fergus dead. I get the impression he was pretty sure they were all dead, himself included.
Fergus' armies were on a fast march and only needed a few days to get south, so no need to scavenge. They would have had enough provisions with them to make it to Ostagar. Are you trying to tell us that the Roman army, for example, did not know how to do a quick march?
Sarah1281 wrote...
Even if Duncan had a horse, there's still no way to be sure he'd be able to sneak it out of Highever when he's on the run and since no one has any reason to think Loghain is allied with Howe at this point, there is no reason to think that Loghain would ensure Fergus' death.2. In order for Duncan to be at the places he's says he's been, they'd almost have to be on horseback. I think it's a very reasonable assumption on my part.
Another reasonable thing to think is that Logain would insure that Fergus dies. I am sure that Arl Howe is counting on that since Logain is up to Highever to his eyeballs.
I know it makes very little sense to have them report back after the battle but you haven't explained why Cailan would send Fergus out on a scouting mission before Duncan arrived to inform him about Caslte Cousland.Bolluxs. You don't send a scouting party out without knowing where you want them to scout. Otherwise the information they'd bring back is worthless. Also what is this copper plated nonsense about them coming back AFTER the battle? Don't you believe it.
But what makes no sense is why anyone would think that Loghain is allied with Howe at this point! Until Loghain retreats (and I think Howe shows up as his ally but at the earliest when Loghain retreats) no one has any reason to suspect that Loghain and Howe are in bed together and thus Duncan and Cailan have no reason to think that Loghain wants Fergus dead! And if the king promises that if Fergus fights the battle then his troops, after the battle, will help retake Highever then Fergus would be an idiot not to stay. Besides, this doesn't address how, exactly, Fergus being sent off before Cailan knew about Highever could be a conspiracy.Way to completely misread and misinterpret (delibertately?) what I am saying. What I am saying is EITHER Duncan/Cailan/Logain believe that Fergus is dead (very likely since Logain is General of the Armies and Logain wants Fergus dead) in which case the King now has a political crisis he can't afford and is ill equipped to deal with OR Fergus is alive and they know where he is (my belief) and they don't want to tell him because they don't want to lose the Highever troops (which would be justified in this case).
In either case shanhaiing a high noble and his only heir in such an emergency is unforgivable and borders on high treason (and I mean Duncan as well as Howe).
No, you are not third or fourth in line for the throne. As evidenced by the civil war and Cailan being said to not have an heir, Ferelden does not have a comprehensive succession. It wasn't like today where you can find someone who is, say, 72nd in line for a throne. All of Maric's relatives were dead and he only had two sons, one of which is an unacknowledged bastard. Cailan had no heir. You are not third or fourth in line for the throne as there isn't even a second-in-line which is why everyone was so against Cailan fighting on the front lines. It is possible that the Landsmeet might have decided to make you king had Cailan died under different circumstances but as it is, that's not the same as being in line for the throne. Having your brother still alive means that you aren't essential to be his heir and he doesn't even have any title or land to inherit ni the first place as Howe took it and the Couslands have yet to take it back. As Duncan does have the rite to conscript Cailan himself if he wanted to (though there would be fallout) it's hardly treason to conscript the backup heir to a land that isn't even yours anymore.This makes no sense. If Duncan really cared about high politics, then he'd let you go immediately. You are either the Teryn of Highever OR it's only heir to Duncan's best knowledge and thus (effectively by most accounts) third (or fourth if you know about Alistair) in line to not just the Terynia of Highever but the Fereldan Crown itself since the Couslands are Fereldan's second ranking family. Duncan is being high handed because he can control King Cailan and is openly hostile to Logain (so that doesn't count) but had to cajole the Teryn of Highever. That's the difference right there between a strong ruler (Bryce) and a weak one (Cailan).
How does that show anything of the sort? Sophia wasn't conscripted. Arland forced her to join the order or else he would have killed her. The Grey Wardens were kind of forced to take her and it's more that she used the Wardens to carry out her political rebellion that there were political problems because she was forced to become a GW.which illustrated brilliantly what happens when you overreach with the right of conscription......and that is confirmed in Soldier's Peak as well
Why do you have to be so dismissive? Horses don't grow on trees in Ferelden, it wouldn't be hard to believe that he couldn't find a horse available so soon.Like Duncan couldn't buy a horse within a day....or steal one. *snorts* Get real.
But the TIMING. Cailan sent Fergus out before he knew about the castle so he would have no reason to think Fergus had any reason to leave.Yet it does make sense if both Duncan and Cailan want Fergus out of the picture. It's the ONLY way it makes sense, but it does make sense in that case. Why want Fergus out othe picture? Keep the Highever troops where they are.
No, I didn't miss it. Stop acting like I'm an idiot. There is no reason to think he can't have more children.As for not needing my PC as an heir, did you miss the little scene where Fergus' wife and children were slaughtered like livestock? Unless and until Fergus can remarry and produce heirs, your PC is desperately needed as an alternate legitamate line and that is something being a GW directly endangers (Cailan won't know that but Duncan does).
So hearing about how the Crown forced them to accept a GW will teach a valuable lesson about the GWs not conscripting people themselves?It was exactly the same choice. Either join the Grey Wardens or die. Just because the Grey Wardens didn't conscript Sofia into their ranks does not make it any less conscription.
Sarah1281 wrote...
Why do you have to be so dismissive? Horses don't grow on trees in Ferelden, it wouldn't be hard to believe that he couldn't find a horse available so soon.Like Duncan couldn't buy a horse within a day....or steal one. *snorts* Get real.
But the TIMING. Cailan sent Fergus out before he knew about the castle so he would have no reason to think Fergus had any reason to leave.Yet it does make sense if both Duncan and Cailan want Fergus out of the picture. It's the ONLY way it makes sense, but it does make sense in that case. Why want Fergus out othe picture? Keep the Highever troops where they are.
No, I didn't miss it. Stop acting like I'm an idiot. There is no reason to think he can't have more children.As for not needing my PC as an heir, did you miss the little scene where Fergus' wife and children were slaughtered like livestock? Unless and until Fergus can remarry and produce heirs, your PC is desperately needed as an alternate legitamate line and that is something being a GW directly endangers (Cailan won't know that but Duncan does).
So hearing about how the Crown forced them to accept a GW will teach a valuable lesson about the GWs not conscripting people themselves?It was exactly the same choice. Either join the Grey Wardens or die. Just because the Grey Wardens didn't conscript Sofia into their ranks does not make it any less conscription.
IanPolaris wrote...
Sarah1281 wrote...
Why do you have to be so dismissive? Horses don't grow on trees in Ferelden, it wouldn't be hard to believe that he couldn't find a horse available so soon.Like Duncan couldn't buy a horse within a day....or steal one. *snorts* Get real.
I find it hard to believe if Fereden is anything like Northern Europe or the England. Even if he couldn't as I explained before, two men on foot can EASILY outdistance an army...even one that is quick marching...and do so easily and be well rested. This is why scouts were used. Large groups of men (especially pre-20th century) move at a snail's pace even under optimal conditions.
IanPolaris wrote...
But the TIMING. Cailan sent Fergus out before he knew about the castle so he would have no reason to think Fergus had any reason to leave.Yet it does make sense if both Duncan and Cailan want Fergus out of the picture. It's the ONLY way it makes sense, but it does make sense in that case. Why want Fergus out othe picture? Keep the Highever troops where they are.
That depends on you believing what you are told. I don't in this case. There is no reason to send scouts to report back AFTER a battle....unless there are ulterior motives.
received orders (probably an agreed upon signal if they were mobile or a runner if not) that the battle was over and they should come on in. You don't stop scouting just because you've engaged the enemy you need to keep an eye out for flanking movements, reinforcements, etc.IanPolaris wrote...
So hearing about how the Crown forced them to accept a GW will teach a valuable lesson about the GWs not conscripting people themselves?It was exactly the same choice. Either join the Grey Wardens or die. Just because the Grey Wardens didn't conscript Sofia into their ranks does not make it any less conscription.
Actually yes. It should teach the GWs a valuable lesson about what happens when you FORCE (one way or the other) a high noblemen with direct and/or close ties to the crown (of any country) to be a Warden. What happened to the Grey Wardens under Sofia Dryden was as predictable as gravity and should be held as exhibit A as to why you SHOULDN'T conscript high nobles unless you absolutely have to.
Traitorous? He had the right of conscription, there's nothing illegal about his high-handedness with Cous. My HNF thought he was a scumbag, but that's not really the same thing. It's certainly possible they did not head south immediately. In other origins (like the mage) it seems plain that Duncan did not make a beeline for Ostagar. Probably he had other stops, looking for more recruits or whatever. It's possible he deliberately avoided Fergus so as not to provoke a confrontation. I wouldn't put it past him. I think the HN origin highlights more than any other that Duncan could be a real bastard if he felt it necessary.IanPolaris wrote...
Addai67 wrote...
@IanPolaris, Gaider has said that Loghain was not involved in the Highever massacre and didn't know about it beforehand. He made the alliance with Howe after Ostagar, in Denerim. So he had no reason to want Fergus dead. I get the impression he was pretty sure they were all dead, himself included.
Fergus' armies were on a fast march and only needed a few days to get south, so no need to scavenge. They would have had enough provisions with them to make it to Ostagar. Are you trying to tell us that the Roman army, for example, did not know how to do a quick march?
A small group of people can still (easily) outdistance an army even on quick-march. Quick-march for a pre-modern army is still not all that quick. The quickmarch of 15km for Napoleonic Era armies was considered brutal for the day, and most small groups in even moderate shape can outdistance that easily and be well rested.
Large groups of people do not move very fast even when "quick-marching". Why can't anyone admit that Duncan was being grossly (and IMHO borderline traitorously) highhanded with his handling of the youngest Cousland noble.
-Polaris
Modifié par Pushover1985, 27 novembre 2010 - 10:50 .
Pushover1985 wrote...
Woah, I didn't really expect my post to spark such a debate. I think some of us are reading too much into this.
I mean Duncan is nothing but a good man in all the origins. Maybe his conditional rescue of the HN isn't the most selfless thing, but he's doing what he needs to do to stop the blight from wiping out every living thing in Fereldan or even beyond.
Ever tried to ****** Duncan off or make him same something mean? You can't. He has remarkable respect and patience for everyone.
I just thought the timing between Fergus leaving and the HN escaping was close together. I didn't mean to imply Duncan was some sort of coniving bastard.
IanPolaris wrote...
Duncan is a conniving bastard in pretty much ALL of the origins stories. The difference is that in most of the origins stories, he is a conniving bastard whose best interests coincide very well with your own. That emphatically is not true for the Human Noble origin story, and legal or no, destroying the second family of Feredan's chance to recover (among other things) is borderline treason.
-Polaris
received orders (probably an agreed upon signal if they were mobile or a runner if not) that the battle was over and they should come on in. You don't stop scouting just because you've engaged the enemy you need to keep an eye out for flanking movements, reinforcements, etc.
Pushover1985 wrote...
IanPolaris wrote...
Duncan is a conniving bastard in pretty much ALL of the origins stories. The difference is that in most of the origins stories, he is a conniving bastard whose best interests coincide very well with your own. That emphatically is not true for the Human Noble origin story, and legal or no, destroying the second family of Feredan's chance to recover (among other things) is borderline treason.
-Polaris
How is it borderline treason for him to use the right of conscription, given to him by the crown?
IanPolaris wrote...
Pushover1985 wrote...
IanPolaris wrote...
Duncan is a conniving bastard in pretty much ALL of the origins stories. The difference is that in most of the origins stories, he is a conniving bastard whose best interests coincide very well with your own. That emphatically is not true for the Human Noble origin story, and legal or no, destroying the second family of Feredan's chance to recover (among other things) is borderline treason.
-Polaris
How is it borderline treason for him to use the right of conscription, given to him by the crown?
Because the action actively weakens the state and imperials at least one (if not two) high noble lines of sucession which makes such an action one that knowingly and deliberately acts against the interest of the state and the crown. Because the right was given by the crown is the ONLY reason I call it "borderline".
-Polaris
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