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Morinth - Redeeming Qualities and Good vs. Evil


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#1
Kindo

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Greetings,

First of all, the only topics I could find about Morinth were in the fan art section of the forum, and most of them I wasn't even allowed to post in (probably locked); so here goes. It will be a long and rambling post about what makes me love Mass Effect, and how one might look at the topic of good versus evil in the Mass Effect-universe, and how it ties in with some of the Paragon and Renegade playstyles one might adopt, so bear with me, but feel free to skip a few paragraphs if you just want to get right into when I start talking about Morinth in particular.

I'm currently wrestling with the guilt and doubt of adding Morinth to my party. The problem stems from the concept of Paragon and Renegade, and then good and evil. I think it's safe to say that paragon and renegade were never meant to represent good and evil, but more a different means to achieve your goals. You're either quite soft-spoken and utterly forgiving about most things, and use charm in order to get results, or you're harsh-spoken and somewhat violent, intimidating the opposition instead. A Renegade character could adopt a more vigilante mindset, taking the law into their own hands, while still serving the side of good. While there are borderline cases, I would go as far to say that you're always a "good" character in the game, only your methods change. If you take the Renegade path to the very extreme, you can be rude and aggressive towards everyone you meet, and being a general jackass even to your fellow squad members, but in the end, it's not exactly "evil." It's pretty much as close as you get, however, and I actually do feel pretty evil if I go bat**** insane like that. It just doesn't feel right.

Now, I choose to play my main character with this in mind - she is a Renegade fighter for good, with a tendency towards vigilantism and generally ruthless behaviour, but only to those who wrong her or her friends, or someone she deems an innocent. While being a badass during many missions, shoving mercenaries out windows, setting a Krogan warlord on fire, or punching some other criminal in the face, she is still very loving to those close to her, and she values her friends on the Normandy above all else. This makes her a character who, in my mind, definitely takes the threat against the galaxy seriously and will do whatever she can to stop it, but she's still an emotional and kind soul when it comes to those she loves. Friendship is what she cares about the most, but unrelenting criminals and other characters who have done wrong, will usually not receive much reprieve from my Shepard.

The reason she gets along so well with everyone on the crew, and consider them her friends - no matter if they're a violent Krogan creation, a convicted, psychotic murderer, or a ruthless mercenary - is that all of these have redeeming qualities. They have characteristics and background, carefully written by the game creators, that allow you to gradually start seeing the whole person, and not just what's at face value. The convicted psychotic murder is who she is because of what had been done to her as a child, and mitigating circumstances start appearing if you explore the dialogue; she even starts thinking about what she's done, and thanks to the love shown from Shepard (especially if you romance her), grounds her somewhat, dragging out that innocent child underneath, who still feels guilt for her actions. The point is that, due to Shepard's interference, these "evil" souls are explained, and develop as you get to know them; they don't remain the same as when you first meet them. That's why I can play what I believe to be a "good" character, who sets her enemies on fire, and offers a loving embrace to her friends at the same time. Thanks to the exquisite writing and characterization of these games, I am allowed to play this character in a way that feels completely natural and acceptant to my wishes - it never feels like I'm doing something that goes against "what Bioware intended," and therefore I'm offered one of the most riveting and wonderful gaming experiences of my life.

But this leads me to my dilemma: Morinth. I was very drawn to her from the start, once you got the chance to find out more about her and even meet her; how she's all about passion, emotion, art and music. I felt a character like that would appeal very much to the Shepard I am playing. Samara is an excellently portrayed character as well, but her unrelenting pursuit of justice, following a strict code, made her feel a little awkward for my Shepard. I did not want to get rid of her, for I still considered her a friend of sorts, but if I wanted Morinth, I would have no choice but to actually outright betray Samara and help Morinth kill her. Already here things started feeling wrong, but what makes it worse is that Morinth has very little in ways of those redeeming qualities I wrote about earlier. Had she been a "good" character, she would have stayed with her sisters in seclusion, I suppose, but there is nothing wrong with wanting to be free instead; I only wish she, in some way at least, showed interest in doing something about her disease. Instead she shows absolutely no remorse to what she's done to all the people she has mated with, and the conversations you can have with her never branch out to something that could evolve into a sort of sub-plot of stilling her hunger or trying to find some kind of cure. This makes it feel like my Shepard bluntly accepts a killer of innocents into her squad, just the way she is, and shows no intention of saying to her that what she's done is wrong.

My biggest gripe is that I have to keep her a secret from everyone else on the ship, including my close friends (and even lovers), making me feel like I didn't just betray Samara, but all of my friends as well. Add to that the non-existent writing for Morinth past recruitment, and how almost the whole game seems to ignore her past this point. Morinth adopts the appearance, voice, and combat- and conversational dialogue from Samara, adding no special flavour whatsoever to either missions or inter-party banter; and throughout most of the game, she is still referred to as Samara by Shepard and the game in general. All of this prevents Morinth from ever feeling like she's part of the crew, or a new addition to your squad. It's just Samara but with a different in-combat power. This can obviously be entirely intentional by Bioware, consciously adding her as an option for those who play an actually evil Shepard, but part of my suspects (and hopes) that she's just unfinished. If Morinth is really supposed to be an actual, convincing character; a truly valid choice for a Renegade Shepard, there is a lot of potential to be found.

The recruitment could've been handled very differently, having events during Samara's recruitment lead to the outcome of either Samara or Morinth surviving the confrontation and joining Shepard's crew. This would make the choice appear before Shepard befriends Samara, possibly having Shepard becoming swayed by either side of the conflict. Depending on the character you play: A Renegade Shepard might feel opted to side with Morinth if her plea is that of a victim of circumstance, now being hunter by her own mother who wants to kill her simply for being who she is, while a Paragon Shepard might feel that Samara is a servant of good who simply wants to stop an extremely dangerous and "evil" criminal. If it had been like this, you would never have to wrestle with the intense guilt you feel now, being forced to betray Samara after already getting to know her better, if you want Morinth on your crew. Also, this would make room for more conversation and dialogue with her, ideally leading to her showing some sort of remorse for what she does, and maybe attempting to control it better. As it is now, it stands as the one inarguably evil act you can perform during the main plot. which is only made more certain by the things you say as Shepard when you make the choice: "Morinth will be more useful to me."

Personally, I think it's a shame that Morinth feels as tacked-on as she does. While the initial character introduction is intriguing, you are never allowed to go any deeper and get to know her real self. The little dialogue you get with her past the recruitment, only helps cement the fact that she's remorseless and cruel, and has no intention of stopping her rampage through the minds of innocent people. Choosing Morinth is an evil act that has Shepard betray Samara personally, as well as the rest of the crew of Normandy, without a second thought, and it carries none of the morally grey undertones you can find in every other character in the game. She does mention feeling lonely due to killing anyone she chooses to love, but the writing never takes this anywhere. It never feels like she's actually supposed to be a part of the crew, or to be a friend of yours, unless you yourself are an evil bastard who condones the murder of countless innocents. After seeing how poorly realized the character is, and then how she lacks any hint of redeeming qualities, I am now feeling more and more convinced that my Shepard cannot choose to save her during the confrontation in her apartment. She wouldn't betray Samara, not after all this time they've spent together.

Morinth has the premise of an absolutely brilliant character, and could be a valid optional squad member for mainly Renegade Shepards, but since not even Bioware themselves seem to think of this as anything but a purely evil option, I have no choice but to reload my save and decide to kill her instead. It feels wrong to have her along in Mass Effect 2, no matter how much I love the idea of her character, and I cannot blindly hope that something will be done in Mass Effect 3 that will redeem both the character and my betrayal of Samara. The bottom line is that I don't think Morinth was ever intended to be more than a novelty, unfortunately, and I know that I'm not the only one hurting over this fact.

Modifié par Kindo, 27 novembre 2010 - 02:12 .


#2
Skymirror

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When deling with Morinth one have to aknowledge that she is an adict on some the most powerful drug ever the lust to mate and most of the time she could be conciderd a victim as much as her prey but that do not change the fact that everytime she talks with you she consider you possible pray instead of a person i just wish there was some way to cure her addiction. (no i am not proposeing a crue for her condion only some kind of treatment or therapy for her thirst.)

Modifié par Skymirror, 27 novembre 2010 - 03:03 .


#3
Zeal

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Response part 1:

Hehe, yes... to me, the pure Paragon plays like a turn-the-other-cheek, "I love eeeeeveryone" annoying nuisance, and the pure Renegade, while full of amusing one-liners and hilariously brutal kill-styles, is also pretty much a completely unsympathetic ass to everyone. Personally, I wanted to play a bit of a more selfish rather than a 100% selfless character. The thing is, that behaviour describes a charming personality much more than the blunt brutality of the Renegade. So I ended up going Paragon, not because I wanted to, but because I wanted my PC to be more of a smooth criminal, and talking my way out was often easier than fighting my way out. Anyways, just a bit of a tangent as to the kinds of annoyances I experience with the Paragon/Renegade system. Basically, Renegade is amusing enough that I'm forced to enjoy it the way it is, but I wish Paragon had a bit less Jesusy options at times. And I wish there was a bit more psychological depth to the dichotomy, but that's probably too tall of an order considering all the variables flying around in ME2.

Example, I'd like to think of my current Shepard as smart. If someone is significant enough of a threat, or she sees they can't be reasoned with, she's not going to let them go or continue trying to talk them down. She'll put a bullet in their head. Not because they are "bad" or have transgressed some code of ethics, but because they are a liability. However, she's not just going to go around punching reporters and telling her best killers to go cry her a river when they're breaking down in front of her over their life's trauma. She's charming, *and* she's ruthless: the sort of femme fatale that the very noir ME2 calls for and even displays frequently in its NPCs. I just felt there was very little support for that in your PC, which was a shame considering how integral a part it is of the genre.

Modifié par Zeal, 27 novembre 2010 - 02:47 .


#4
AntiChri5

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I am not surprised you couldn't find a topic to post in. The forum search function is rubbish. Now....

To start with, Jack isn't a psycopath. She displays empathy.

On to your actual points though, i disagree that Morinth is about art, music, passion and emotion.

She is about death. Everything else is simply a side interest.



It would have been great if they had made her prey on murderers and rapists and criminals and thugs. There would have been some justification for sparing her. Or maybe if she hadn't killed, but Samara hunts her anyway. That would be interesting.



As it is.......goodbye Morinth.

#5
Kindo

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Skymirror wrote...

When deling with Morinth one have to
aknowledge that she is an adict on some the most powerful drug ever the
lust to mate and most of the time she could be conciderd a victim as
much as her prey but that do not change the fact that everytime she
talks with you she consider you possible ptay instead of a person i just
wish there was some way to cure her addiction. (no i am not proposeing a
crue for her condion only some kind of treatment or therapy for her
thirst.)

Agreed. This is the kind of untapped potential you see in here - she is the epitomy of a drug addict, but nothing is ever done or even hinted about to help her with it. She doesn't want any help, it seems, nor does Shepard offer any help.

Zeal wrote...

Reponse part 1:
Hehe, yes... to me, the
pure Paragon plays like a turn-the-other-cheek, "I love eeeeeveryone"
annoying nuisance, and the pure Renegade, while full of amusing
one-liners and hilariously brutal kill-styles, is also pretty much a
completely unsympathetic ass to everyone. Personally, I wanted to play a
bit of a more selfish rather than a 100% selfless character. The thing
is, that behaviour describes a charming personality much more than the
blunt brutality of the Renegade. So I ended up going Paragon, not
because I wanted to, but because I wanted my PC to be more of a smooth
criminal, and talking my way out was often easier than fighting my way
out. Anyways, just a bit of a tangent as to the kinds of annoyances I
experience with the Paragon/Renegade system. Basically, Renegade is
amusing enough that I'm forced to enjoy it the way it is, but I wish
Paragon had a bit less Jesusy options at times. And I wish there was a
bit more psychological depth to the dichotomy, but that's probably too
tall of an order considering all the variables flying around in ME2.

Yes, that's a good way to describe it; turn the other cheek. A more charming approach, as well, and I do agree with you that they could've done the Paragon options a bit more amusing (while still remaining Paragon-like). As it is now, the Renegade options are almsot always the most amusing ones. It makes me suspect that most of the writers for the game preferred the Renegade path, but it might just be because I prefer it, myself, that I feel that way.

Zeal wrote...

Example,
I'd like to think of my current Shepard as smart. If someone is
significant enough of a threat, or she sees they can't be reasoned with,
she's not going to let them go or continue trying to talk them down.
She'll put a bullet in their head. Not because they are "bad" or have
transgressed some code of ethics, but because they are a liability.
However, she's not just going to go around punching reporters and
telling her best killers to go cry her a river when they're breaking
down in front of her over their life's trauma. She's charming, *and*
she's ruthless: the sort of femme fatale that the very noir ME2 calls
for and even displays frequently in its NPCs. I just felt there was very
little support for that in your PC, which was a shame considering how
integral a part it is of the genre.

I understand the idea behind your character perfectly, and it amazes me still that Bioware has made a game that actually allows this kind of mixed playstyle (paragon/renegade) to feel natural and real. Usually, games tend to allow only one or the other, and you pretty much have to stick to it for most scenarios.

AntiChri5 wrote...

I am not surprised you couldn't find a topic to post in. The forum search function is rubbish. Now....
To start with, Jack isn't a psycopath. She displays empathy.
On to your actual points though, i disagree that Morinth is about art, music, passion and emotion.
She is about death. Everything else is simply a side interest.

It
would have been great if they had made her prey on murderers and
rapists and criminals and thugs. There would have been some
justification for sparing her. Or maybe if she hadn't killed, but Samara
hunts her anyway. That would be interesting.

As it is.......goodbye Morinth.

Well, I have to disagree. Considering what she was subjected to as a child, she was molded into what can pretty much be described as a psychopath who enjoys the sensation of killing. On Pragia, you find out that they rewarded her with drugs when she killed someone, and electrocuted her when she refused. This would make anyone turn a bit psycho, and I feel the way Jack is an excellent portrayal of someone psychotic. That said, yes, she starts displaying empathy, but she doesn't right away. So if you know something more about a strict definition of a psychotic person that doesn't suit this, then I suppose you're right. I admit to use the term loosely, in that case.

Back on track, I definitely feel that Morinth cares enough about art to make it more than just a side-interest, and I never got the impression that it is death itself that spurns her on. Either way, what you suggest about her only feeding on those she thinks deserve it (such as criminals), could definitely be a more interesting take on the character, and help make her into a more sympathetic choice. Bioware obviously didn't put much effort into the character, however, which is why I now see her as a novelty, like I wrote earlier.

Modifié par Kindo, 27 novembre 2010 - 02:58 .


#6
Zeal

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Response part 2:

I was shocked to find out you could get Morinth as a playable character, but if they handled it this way, basically, not handling it at all.. all I can say is I'm really shocked at how sloppy it comes across compared to the rest of the highly-polished game. I agree it is a fascinating character, and it seems pretty weak to just give her the shaft that way... maybe it was due to time constraints or something, but then they should've just waited and added it as a DLC! Really, that would have been a pretty cool section, to choose between the frighteningly zealous Samara and her frighteningly, um, obsessive daughter.

Saying it's because she's addicted seems like a bit too much of an off-hand excuse from the writers... Jack says outright she has a hard time suppressing the urge to kill anyone she sees, but she still has depth and is a very sympathetic character.

But with Morinth, it just seems like untapped potential and sloppy work that feels so... un-ME2-like. :/

Modifié par Zeal, 27 novembre 2010 - 02:55 .


#7
Kindo

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Zeal wrote...

Response part 2:

I was shocked to find out you could get Morinth as a playable character, but if they handled it this way, basically, not handling it at all.. all I can say is I'm really shocked at how sloppy it comes across compared to the rest of the highly-polished game. I agree it is a fascinating character, and it seems pretty weak to just give her the shaft that way... maybe it was due to time constraints or something, but then they should've just waited and added it as a DLC! Really, that would have been a pretty cool section, to choose between the frighteningly zealous Samara and her frighteningly, um, obsessive daughter.

Saying it's because she's addicted seems like a bit too much of an off-hand excuse from the writers... Jack says outright she has a hard time suppressing the urge to kill anyone she sees, but she still has depth and is a very sympathetic character.

But with Morinth, it just seems like untapped potential and sloppy work that feels so... un-ME2-like. :/

Yes, I reacted the same way. Everything else - especially when it comes to the characters - is so incredibly well-written and directed, which makes Morinth stand out like a sore thumb even more. If they had put it off for a DLC, they would've had to pull out Samara as well. The truth is, I doubt we'll ever know what the originally intended to do with Morinth. Did time constraints make them decide to release an unfinished character, or is she simply there to add an evil choice?

#8
Xilizhra

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First of all, the only topics I could find about Morinth were in the fan art section of the forum


There's a steadily growing one in the characters forum. And yes, I agree: Morinth's presentation was terrible and one of ME2's greater weaknesses, with a great amount of wasted potential. At the moment, though, I'm thinking of resolving this in fanfiction...

#9
Skymirror

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Xilizhra wrote...

At the moment, though, I'm thinking of resolving this in fanfiction...

Post links here when done please i am eager to see what you can do to improve her character.Posted Image
Edit: Scratch that, links to fanfiction should be reserved for the character section of the forum,
insted post a link to the link.Posted Image

Modifié par Skymirror, 27 novembre 2010 - 04:12 .


#10
PauseforEffect

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To start, Samara was intended as a main character so a lot of development was put into her story & the conflicts she had to deal with. For every teammate's loyalty mission there is a notable internal strife going on with the character it is focused on. Morinth may have been intended as just a sidenote & nothing more as this was Samara's story and Shepard is left to wonder as to the sort of hell a parent must go through to kill their own child with their own hands. Even if that child is a murderer. On the other hand is the pain of Nef's mother, who lost her only child to Samara's own. That could be the counterargument to explain Samara's resolve to end what she started.

Anyway, as to why Morinth was underdeveloped, sometimes people are really that simple in nature. To me, she sounded like a teenager that never grew up

#11
PauseforEffect

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NO!!! Not another double post!!!

Modifié par PrimalEden, 29 novembre 2010 - 08:35 .


#12
Mnemnosyne

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I commented on this a long time ago, and basically I agree with these points.  Morinth when first spoken about by Samara and during her introduction seems like she might be an interesting character, but...there just doesn't seem to be anything under the surface.  She's written as a complete monster with no redeeming features, no depth, and very, very little personality post-recruitment.

I do wonder whether she was unfinished, as you suspect.  Turning her into 'Samara with a different power' might have been a quick and easy way to keep her in at least in some form when time or money ran out for developing a more complete character, but it unfortunately leaves her as an unsatisfying caricature of a character that would be more appropriate for an NPC than a potential crewmember.

There is a hell of a lot about Morinth as she's described by Samara, and about the idea of the Ardat-Yakshi, that would make a fascinating and compelling character - I have even thought she would make an interesting potential love interest for Shepard, one whose relationship would be entirely emotional and based on their personalities, since sex would be fatal.  Overall I feel like Morinth was a missed opportunity on many, many levels.

One thing I am curious about is whether they will take this further in Mass Effect 3 at all or not.  I expect that she'll be entirely ignored in ME3.  If you picked her and she survived the suicide mission, then she'll simply be absent entirely.  This seems likely to me, but I hope that maybe Morinth will be explored as her own character in ME3 instead, even though that seems improbable.

#13
ReiSilver

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yeah the more I think about it Morinth is really a tool to show more of Samara's character, Morinth gives Samara conflict and angst and while there are some interesting ideas to Morinth she isn't redeemable in-game. The fact that Morinth was the strongest and smartest of her daughters pains Samara, perhaps Samara had thought of all her daughters Morinth could find a way to overcome her condition, but instead she embraced it. In this way Morinth is a lot like 'fridged' characters, she has enough there that you kind of would have liked to see more but in the end she's only there to give depth to Samara.

If she had been a full character perhaps her loyalty mission would have given you a way to sway her away from killing innocents, but then again Morinth could be so far gone that even Shepard could never hope to change her.

Personally I see Paragon as more the type to show mercy to anyone so I'd actually expect trying to save Morinth to come in that side, Paragon's talk-jutsu/understanding-attack (kindness-to-all-creatures-kick... ok I'll stop) lends itself to knowing there are shades of gray, while Renegade tends to sort into threat/not a threat.

#14
Killjoy Cutter

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A) We get one of these threads about once a week.

B) Morinth is pure evil.  She deceives, manipulates, degrades, and then kills people for a sexual thrill and power trip.  She does not need to kill to survive, so she is not compelled to do any of these things.  She kills because she wants to, because she likes it, and because she views other thinking beings as food and playthings.  She is a monster, and killing her was absolutely the right thing to do and a service to the rest of the galaxy.

Modifié par Killjoy Cutter, 28 novembre 2010 - 04:40 .


#15
MaaZeus

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AntiChri5 wrote...

I am not surprised you couldn't find a topic to post in. The forum search function is rubbish. Now....
To start with, Jack isn't a psycopath. She displays empathy.
On to your actual points though, i disagree that Morinth is about art, music, passion and emotion.
She is about death. Everything else is simply a side interest.

It would have been great if they had made her prey on murderers and rapists and criminals and thugs. There would have been some justification for sparing her. Or maybe if she hadn't killed, but Samara hunts her anyway. That would be interesting.

As it is.......goodbye Morinth.



Yup. Jack isnt a psycho though her actions might show otherwise. She is just incredibly messed up emotionally, perhaps permanently who knows.

Morinth is purely evil. She is an animal, a hedonist whos only purpose in life is to pleasure herself and gain power. Perhaps her words about freedom were true when she was rebellious young and escaped, but she definetly has shaped herself with her own free will to something else.

Modifié par MaaZeus, 28 novembre 2010 - 06:20 .


#16
Kindo

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[quote]Xilizhra wrote...

[quote]First of all, the only topics I could find about Morinth were in the fan art section of the forum[/quote]
There's a steadily growing one in the characters forum. And yes, I agree: Morinth's presentation was terrible and one of ME2's greater weaknesses, with a great amount of wasted potential. At the moment, though, I'm thinking of resolving this in fanfiction...[/quote]
I found a couple, but those I found either didn't allow me to reply, for whatever reason, or had been reprimanded by a moderator for not containing enough fanart.  As for resolving the character through fan-fiction; that could be quite interesting to see how it turns out. :)

[quote]PrimalEden wrote...

To start, Samara was intended as a
main character so a lot of development was put into her story & the
conflicts she had to deal with. For every teammate's loyalty mission
there is a notable internal strife going on with the character it is
focused on. Morinth may have been intended as just a sidenote &
nothing more as this was Samara's story and Shepard is left to wonder as
to the sort of hell a parent must go through to kill their own child
with their own hands. Even if that child is a murderer. On the other
hand is the pain of Nef's mother, who lost her only child to Samara's
own. That could be the counterargument to explain Samara's resolve to
end what she started.
Anyway, as to why Morinth was underdeveloped,
sometimes people are really that simple in nature. To me, she sounded
like a teenager that never grew up[/quote]
Oh, yes. I have no complaints whatsoever about Samara and what drives her to hunt down her own daughter like this; it's all extremely well-portrayed, and makes her one of the most tragic characters in the ensemble. Like you say, the evil Morinth is responsible for - all those innocents killed - is probably what makes her reach this decision so readily.

I agree that people sometimes are this simple in nature, as Morinth is. The only reason it's even an issue for me is that she's a potential squad member, and that makes it feel very weird that she has so little character development or story.

[quote]PrimalEden wrote...

NO!!! Not another double post!!![/quote]
They tend to sneak up on you. ;)

[quote]Koyasha wrote...

I commented on this a long time ago, and
basically I agree with these points.  Morinth when first spoken about by
Samara and during her introduction seems like she might be an
interesting character, but...there just doesn't seem to be anything
under the surface.  She's written as a complete monster with no
redeeming features, no depth, and very, very little personality
post-recruitment.[/quote]
Exactly, and again, one of my main issues is that you techinically betray the entire crew by taking her with you, keeping her a secret. Like some sort of sexual... toy.

[quote]Koyasha wrote...

I do wonder whether she was unfinished, as you
suspect.  Turning her into 'Samara with a different power' might have
been a quick and easy way to keep her in at least in some form when time
or money ran out for developing a more complete character, but it
unfortunately leaves her as an unsatisfying caricature of a character
that would be more appropriate for an NPC than a potential crewmember.

There
is a hell of a lot about Morinth as she's described by Samara, and
about the idea of the Ardat-Yakshi, that would make a fascinating and
compelling character - I have even thought she would make an interesting
potential love interest for Shepard, one whose relationship would be
entirely emotional and based on their personalities, since sex would be
fatal.  Overall I feel like Morinth was a missed opportunity on many,
many levels.[/quote]
Precisely. They should've left her out completely, and instead expanded the story somewhat. She could be one of the most fascinating characters you meet in the game, without making her part of your crew. As for making her a love interest, that's a very intriguing idea. There's too much focus on sex being the culmination of a relationship in these games; it wouldn't hurt to have a more emotional and platonic romantic relationship, without the need to sex it up in the captain's cabin before a big mission. That's what made romances in Baldur's Gate II so good. Sure, there was sex involved, but that was just one part of it - the relationship continued far beyond that point, and was therefore made much more believable in the end. I digress, so let's move on...

[quote]Koyasha wrote...

One thing I am curious about is whether they will
take this further in Mass Effect 3 at all or not.  I expect that she'll
be entirely ignored in ME3.  If you picked her and she survived the
suicide mission, then she'll simply be absent entirely.  This seems
likely to me, but I hope that maybe Morinth will be explored as her own
character in ME3 instead, even though that seems improbable.
[/quote]
This was part of my dilemma. I clinged to the hope that maybe she'd be made into a proper character as you start the ME3-campaign, but I soon realized I couldn't count on this to happen. Most likely she'll be entirely ignored, as you say, which is why I sided with Samara anyway, eventually; even though she outright says she would try to kill me if she wasn't under oath. :(

[quote]ReiSilver wrote...

yeah the more I think about it Morinth
is really a tool to show more of Samara's character, Morinth gives
Samara conflict and angst and while there are some interesting ideas to
Morinth she isn't redeemable in-game. The fact that Morinth was the
strongest and smartest of her daughters pains Samara, perhaps Samara had
thought of all her daughters Morinth could find a way to overcome her
condition, but instead she embraced it. In this way Morinth is a lot
like 'fridged' characters, she has enough there that you kind of would
have liked to see more but in the end she's only there to give depth to
Samara.[/quote]
Definitely, which is why it's so weird that you can choose to kill Samara and recruit Morinth instead. She's clearly only there as a tool for Samara's character to evolve and gain depth, so why tempt us with the option to have her on your crew? There's nothing left of her to explore afterwards...

[quote]ReiSilver wrote...

If she had been a full character perhaps her loyalty mission
would have given you a way to sway her away from killing innocents, but
then again Morinth could be so far gone that even Shepard could never
hope to change her.
Personally I see Paragon as more the type to show
mercy to anyone so I'd actually expect trying to save Morinth to come
in that side, Paragon's talk-jutsu/understanding-attack
(kindness-to-all-creatures-kick... ok I'll stop) lends itself to knowing
there are shades of gray, while Renegade tends to sort into threat/not a
threat.[/quote]
Yes, the whole mission does feel a bit weird, since you have to make a clear choice of whom to kill. It really surprised me that you couldn't - somehow - get both sides to stand down, or maybe convince Morinth to join her sisters, trying to gain control of the addiction. No matter which choice you make, you end up feeling evil, in some way, no matter how much of a paragon you are. I have to admit, however, that both Samara and Morinth are extreme characters. Samara may fight on the side of justice, but her unrelenting methods, governed entirely by a strict code that never lets her second-guess her actions, makes her a completely different kind of evil. Like I wrote earlier, no matter how much we talk together and become 'friends,' she will tell you that she'd come after you and try to kill you if it wasn't for the oath she swore (if you're mainly renegade), and despite her being 'loyal' to you. This is another oddity, and it makes Samara the only character on the squad I don't feel I can really trust (Legion is a borderline case).

[quote]Killjoy Cutter wrote...

A) We get one of these threads about once a week.

B)
Morinth is pure evil.  She deceives, manipulates, degrades, and then
kills people for a sexual thrill and power trip.  She does not need to
kill to survive, so she is not compelled to do any of these things.  She
kills because she wants to, because she likes it, and because she views
other thinking beings as food and playthings.  She is a monster, and
killing her was absolutely the right thing to do and a service to the
rest of the galaxy.[/quote]
A) I bet you do, but if Bioware doesn't supply me with the tool for finding an already-active thread, I had to go create my own. Sorry if the constant resurgence of these threads is annoying.

B) I agree with you completely. The way she is portrayed leaves little room for debate, and I wouldn't even have started this if it wasn't for the fact that she could become part of your squad. Once she does, she's underdeveloped and doesn't offer any new, meaningful conversations whatsoever; she's just a monster, hiding on the ship at your behest, ultimately making you feel like you've betrayed the whole crew.

[quote]MaaZeus wrote...

Yup.
Jack isnt a psycho though her actions might show otherwise. She is just
incredibly messed up emotionally, perhaps permanently who knows.

Morinth
is purely evil. She is an animal, a hedonist whos only purpose in life
is to pleasure herself and gain power. Perhaps her words about freedom
were true when she was rebellious young and escaped, but she definetly
has shaped herself with her own free will to something else.[/quote]
Again, I don't know if there are strict medical terms I'm not aware of in order to classify someone as psychotic, but the way Jack behaves towards others, and how she without a moment's hesitation will immediately kill anyone in her path (harking back to her upbringing when she was given pleasant drugs if she killed someone, and electrocuted if she didn't), makes her a bit more than just 'messed-up.' Either way, she's redeemable, and becomes a lot more stable and sympathetic as the game goes on and you get to know her better, depending on how you treat her of course. Morinth doesn't have an iota of writing to even insinuate she might be redeemed.

#17
Encarmine

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I think we'll see Samara/Morinth in ME3, The disturbing part about Morinth being she may be pretending to be a Justicar. Freaky.



Morinth is cool, I gave her a chance in my recent rengade adept playthrough, i prefer her voice acting, and despite her being a murderer, shes no worse than say Zaeed or Jack in her previous crimes.



Shame she lacks dialog, would be cool to have some deep chats like other main characters

#18
Zeal

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This is the issue... Jack is felt by many in the ME universe to be dangerously insane and psychotic - hence why she ended up on Purgatory, strapped down with metal. Is she? No; the game shows you depth and realism in the character. Now, she's not exactly psychologically peachy (as I said, Jack states outright she still feels like killing every person she sees), but this is part of her, not the only part.

With Morinth, there is no level of realism, giving us at least one other side or aspect to the character. It stands out oddly in contrast to most of the rest of the game (Sidonis, Archer, Illusive Man, the Migration Fleet Admirals, even Samara as Kindo pointed out, etc).

Modifié par Zeal, 30 novembre 2010 - 12:30 .


#19
Dean_the_Young

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Xilizhra wrote...

First of all, the only topics I could find about Morinth were in the fan art section of the forum

There's a steadily growing one in the characters forum. And yes, I agree: Morinth's presentation was terrible and one of ME2's greater weaknesses, with a great amount of wasted potential. At the moment, though, I'm thinking of resolving this in fanfiction...

Of course, deleting nearly all recorded dialogue and rewriting Morinth into a 'I'll hide as Samara' with the single oversight on Tuchanka didn't do the characterization, whatever it was going to be, any favors.

#20
Mrwest16

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I agree with most of what you've said but that being said, perhaps in ME3 Shepard will start to question his decision for betraying Samara, perhaps Morinth will feel the same. Maybe your Shepard wasn't sure why he/she made that decision, perhaps he/she would choose Morinth because he feels her "Disease" could potentially be a useful thing for the team, if you're a ruthless character your Shepard will always want to get the job done. Perhaps Morinth would meet his goals better then Samara. Why? Because of her code. But I don't really know, I'm just thinking this could be something that's explored in ME3 more, ME2 was more-so a setup for Morinth if you chose to recruit her and she survived the suicide mission.

Also, one reason why Morinth wasn't as fleshed out, she's really hard to get. You HAVE to have a certain level of renegade to recruit her, if you do not, Samara is the default winner of their confrontation. This is just simply something to have as sort of a "Oh, that's cool" sort of thing and allows for more replayability. It was probably a decision made late in the game in which, like I said, will be explored more in ME3 if Morinth was kept around.

Personally, she's one of my favorite characters in the game next to Garrus.

Jack's cool too but that's mostly because I romanced her in my Male play through.

Modifié par Mrwest16, 03 décembre 2010 - 08:05 .


#21
Kindo

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Mrwest16 wrote...

I agree with most of what you've said but that being said, perhaps in ME3 Shepard will start to question his decision for betraying Samara, perhaps Morinth will feel the same. Maybe your Shepard wasn't sure why he/she made that decision, perhaps he/she would choose Morinth because he feels her "Disease" could potentially be a useful thing for the team, if you're a ruthless character your Shepard will always want to get the job done. Perhaps Morinth would meet his goals better then Samara. Why? Because of her code. But I don't really know, I'm just thinking this could be something that's explored in ME3 more, ME2 was more-so a setup for Morinth if you chose to recruit her and she survived the suicide mission.

I certainly hope so, but the way it's presented in ME2, I can't count on it, and hence I must stick with Samara. I probably would've gone for Morinth anyway, if it wasn't for the fact that you have to lie to all your friends about her (my Shepard loves her friends).

#22
HolyJellyfish

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One way I've dealt with the concept of Morinth is that A) She's INCREDIBLY powerful, and I imagine Shepard would not allow her to leave the ship (She's kind of in prison onboard the Normandy) B) In her Shadow Broker files, there is an interest in her genetic mutation as a weapon against the Reapers, and C) She's much more likely to stick on your team and fight off the reapers than run away (since you've identified her). There is a possibility of redemption that /could/ exist. Or at least, she could be turned over as a science experiment for Cerberus.



The problem with Samara is I don't see her returning to the Normandy to fight off the collectors, because of her code. At least Morinth poses as a greater help in the long run.

#23
Pacifien

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Dear Kindo, the reason you found Morinth threads in the "fan art" section is because it is also the character discussion section. As such, I will now move your thread to the appropriate forum. Loves, Pacifien.